Fallen Frontiers Kickstarter

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**Sirio**

I believe he's talking about this. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/986826251/duel-fighters?play=video_pitch&ref=users

They got funded but still not delivered. Think they informed their backers however (something like a 3-month delay).

**Alpharius**

Denny Crane wrote:

3 days ago

I was hoping that they surprise us with some news on the world Expo in Stresa this weekend.... Would be really happy to see a lifesign.
I dont expect a fix Kickstarter restart date or so, but such a long silence without any news after the canceling is quite surprisng

Creator SCALE GAMES wrote:

about 11 hours ago

We thought that Stressa is not a good place to make FF demos. We put some figures to show the size and quality.
Some members of the team continue hard working to relaunch the game.
There is no doubt that the game wil be launched soon or later.

**Kilkrazy**

cincydooley wrote:
I won't back it again if it goes IndieGoGo.

I think that would be a terrible decision on their part.

Why on Earth?

I've backed two projects on Indiegogo. They have worked out a lot better than the projects I backed on Kickstarter.

**Alpharius**

There are the 'usual' list of complaints about IndieGoGo:

1) They take your money right away, and it is a lot harder to 'cancel' and get your money back if you change your mind and/or your financial situation changes.

2) The Dreaded "Flexible Funding" campaign.

I'm not a fan of IndieGoGo, and probably won't back something there either.

**edlowe**

Alpharius wrote:
There are the 'usual' list of complaints about IndieGoGo:

1) They take your money right away, and it is a lot harder to 'cancel' and get your money back if you change your mind and/or your financial situation changes.

2) The Dreaded "Flexible Funding" campaign.

I'm not a fan of IndieGoGo, and probably won't back something there either.

Exactly why I wont use it, for all its faults ks is a lot more flexible. Plus you don't have to worry so much about changes that happen near the end of the campaign, just a quick click and your moneys safe.

**Alpharius**

Miniatures In Color 4 days ago

Hello everyone.. if you are in the USA and are attending GENCON, be sure to look for myself and Elias from Scale Games, we will be attending GENCON and have stuff to show off.

We should be wearing FALLEN FRONTIER tee-shirts, and hanging out in the non historical miniatures room, if not any free table space we can find we will be at and I will try and post here where we are located during the con.. as well as on my PLOG.

Anyone going to Gencon?

Please check them out, and let us know what's what!

**Dark Severance**

Alpharius wrote:
Anyone going to Gencon?

Please check them out, and let us know what's what!

I will definitely be at GenCon.

**Theophony**

Alpharius wrote:

Miniatures In Color 4 days ago

Hello everyone.. if you are in the USA and are attending GENCON, be sure to look for myself and Elias from Scale Games, we will be attending GENCON and have stuff to show off.

We should be wearing FALLEN FRONTIER tee-shirts, and hanging out in the non historical miniatures room, if not any free table space we can find we will be at and I will try and post here where we are located during the con.. as well as on my PLOG.

Anyone going to Gencon?

Please check them out, and let us know what's what!

Also take a tape measure and get accurate shots.....of the models not the developers

(I actually feel it necessary to point that out with this group).

**vegeta365**

So, we're they at Gen Con?

Did anyone take pics, discuss materials and their plans for getting this released?

Any more rules updates?

**Alpharius**

Indeed there is!

From Miniatures In Color, a rather...passionate fan during the Kickstarter:

http://miniaturesincolor.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/fallen-frontiers-gencon-2014/

FALLEN FRONTIERS & GENCON 2014
July 17, 2014

Greetings readers.

I will be representing Scale Games and their new game FALLEN FRONTIERS at Gen Con. I will have examples of the miniatures you will get in your pledges the material they are using as well as the fine detail you can expect to see when you receive your pledge. Depending on the go ahead from the project manager I maybe even be able to inform you on the details on when and where the new launching of the game will take place. Much is being discussed, and done in the back ground, and I know the silence is deafening, but everyone is hard at work getting stuff worked out, adjusted, fixed, and primed for the relaunch. Show casing these models at GENCON is one step to help build consumer confidence and to really give everyone an opportunity to see the high quality and detail these miniatures will be. The material has been settled and what I will be showing off at GENCON will be the final material you will receive. I have been asked how did they produce these miniatures… As I was not there at the time, I cant honestly answer that question, I can however guess with some limited background and info I know about the company. Scale Games being a part of Scale75, would mean that A: it was done in house as I know they have some in house production products, or B: have a contract with whom ever produces Scale75 75mm miniatures already.

I will have on hand not only the finely studio painted miniatures, but bare material ones as well, so you can see it is not all in the paint job, but rather these miniatures are in fact really cool on their own, and who knows I maybe even giving a few of these unpainted models away.

There is an event planned for Saturday at 1pm in the NON-Historical Miniatures area. I have submitted it and am now waiting for it to post. It is Scale Games FALLEN FRONTIERS.. so keep an eye out for it.

I look forward to meeting you and telling you more about this great game and outstanding miniatures from Scale Games.

Here is a Preview of one of the models I will have on hand in all 3 stages.

I'm not sure if the miniature material details and such were discussed at Gencon, but from the report below, who knows?

http://miniaturesincolor.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/gencon-after-action-report/

GENCON – After Action Report
August 24, 2014

Hello Readers,

My apologies for not posting during GENCON, first I have to admit I was a bit overwhelmed, and second I honestly had no time, when I thought I did, I had no internet. When I got back to the hotel, I just fell down and passed out… and after maybe 4 or 5 hours was up and at it again. I have to buy new shoes, I swear I wore the tread right off of these.

GENCON is amazing, there is something about this convention that is like no other. There is an attitude of friendliness and welcoming by everyone you meet. The City of Indianapolis is also fantastic, they treat you as if you are special and are wanted there, no one had a negative thing to say about two-hundred-thousand plus gamer’s invading their city. I had a great time.. and now that I have had some time to recoup I am ready to share some FALLEN FRONTIER news with you.

We set up in the miniature hall both Friday and Saturday in the Yellow Section (Yellow 35/36), not too far from the BIG RED Shirt. If you were there you know what I am talking about. We got a chance to meet a few interested people and show them the game as well as the miniatures, terrain and game mat. Sunday was the day of Shopping and relaxing some, as we were winding down and exhausted from the three days prior. Thursday was the get acquainted, figure stuff out, and explore day.

I left flyers on our tables and here and there in hopes of getting the word out, I saw on the old KS page that someone found one… so I guess it worked to some extent. But that is not what you want to hear, you want to know about the game and when it will be relaunched and where…

Well, this Autumn sometime in October is our goal and what we are shooting for, but there are a few things to work out prior, and we are hard at work getting them done. I want to be clear that we have a target, but as nothing is ever certain I cant nail it down to a day yet, but think of it this way you have all of September to save up and prepare for the reboot! As for where that is still a subject of debate, we have it down to two options back to Kickstarter, or on IndieGoGo. As the date approaches I will be sure to inform you where and when precisely it will be. Please comment and share where you would like it to be rebooted and why.

On my Fallen Frontiers Support Group on Facebook, I have added a bunch of pictures, and how the game plays as well as some sample cards, I will try to get that info over here as well… I understand some people don’t like or want to be part of facebook, and that’s fine, I can use my blog as another source to inform you.

Here are a few photos of Fallen Frontiers at GENCON. ( Friday Green tables 15/16 )

Here are a couple pictures of card samples.

Here are some pictures of Saturday ( Yellow Tables 35/36 )

And here is some pictures of the character cards.

More coming soon.. so stay tuned!

I really wanted this one to succeed, so here's to hoping they come back with a clear, concise Kickstarter that is as successful as they need it to be, and as successful as it can be - I'll be there!

If it is on IndieNoGo though?

Well...

**Dentry**

Nice find. The models look good and are photographed well.

Haven't read anything about this recently. September seems a good time for it, before the holiday madness. But it'll be DOA for me if they do Indiegogo.

**Sirio**

I can't see a reason for which they should do Indiegogo, I doubt they would have much success there. They already gathered people in their KS, why in the world should they lose that crowd?

If they have fixed their issues and have found someone who speaks better english, they should do better than last time. I'll keep on watching this.

**Riquende**

Spoiler:

I hope this doesn't end up being their scale shot.

**zedmeister**

Hmmm, still no detail on scale and material that they'll be using.

I really like the look of this and will take a punt in the next ks. Just hope it doesn't clash with Darklands KS3

**Alpharius**

Alpharius about 11 hours ago

Interesting stuff!

So, a couple of questions!

1) What was the final material that was chosen and were there unpainted miniatures on hand?
2) Is HIPs still a possible stretch goal?
3) Please - no IndieGoGo!

MiC - thanks for the write up, and I'm looking forward to more!

And I'm looking forward to Fallen Frontiers re-launching...somewhere!

Creator SCALE GAMES about 5 hours ago

Hi Alpharius.
1.-The material will be PU resin or a combination of PU resin+metal.
2.-Yes, it is possible. It will depends on the result of the campaign as we explained before cancel.
3.-We must to study the way to relaunch. After discussing with several companies dedicated to help with Crowdfunding campaigns, the conclusion is that KS is not really a crowdfunding platform for most of backers. It is more like a pre-sale platform. It can be KS or not...

What's "PU Resin" again?

And comment #3 is...odd.

Sure, some people use KS as a 'pre-order', but it isn't only about that. KS is a crowdfunding platform, and easily the most widely accessible/popular one out there.

Not sure where they're going with this one, but I'm certainly interested to follow along - for now!

**Bolognesus**

PU Resin is polyurethane resin - that would be FW/Mierce like (although I believe a lot depends on casting methods as well; I think Prodos uses a PU compound as well but more or less spincasts it, for their warzone and AvP lines?)

**Alpharius**

Ah, good then!

"PU Resin" is 'real' resin!

**Bolognesus**

Yes. Again though, the difference 'good' and 'bad' casting can make is huge - don't get your hopes up yet.

**Dark Severance**

Alpharius wrote:
3.-We must to study the way to relaunch. After discussing with several companies dedicated to help with Crowdfunding campaigns, the conclusion is that KS is not really a crowdfunding platform for most of backers. It is more like a pre-sale platform. It can be KS or not..

And comment #3 is...odd.

They are believing the hype. There are a lot of websites that when you compare crowdfunding, that flat out state Kickstarter isn't what it was before and there are other better Crowdfunding websites. For some projects this is valid but for gaming it does not. If you compare games on IndieGoGo vs Kickstarter they are vastly different not only in spectrum and details but also in the amount of funds they generate. I believe they are of the impression (this may be a language barrier thing again) that it is pre-sale platform because of companies like Japanime Games, Mantic, CMoN, etc that do seem to use it as that. However to not make the Kickstarter choice would still be the wrong choice. The majority of people trust Kickstarter slightly more than other programs. It isn't like it was 2 years ago but that isn't because its a pre-sale platform, it is because backers have more questions and are more aware now. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. Unless they have extra crowd funding backers from another source, any other option would be a mistake for them.

**Yonan**

Not sure about the others, but Mantic doesn't use KS as pre orders - they do it to raise funding to develop new product lines, exactly what kickstarter is for. It seems as though there is a lot of misinformation on the topic.

If there's a movement away from kickstarter it should be for the right reasons, such as to platforms that don't take as large a cut.

**weeble1000**

Dark Severance wrote:
Alpharius wrote:
3.-We must to study the way to relaunch. After discussing with several companies dedicated to help with Crowdfunding campaigns, the conclusion is that KS is not really a crowdfunding platform for most of backers. It is more like a pre-sale platform. It can be KS or not..

And comment #3 is...odd.
They are believing the hype. There are a lot of websites that when you compare crowdfunding, that flat out state Kickstarter isn't what it was before and there are other better Crowdfunding websites. For some projects this is valid but for gaming it does not. If you compare games on IndieGoGo vs Kickstarter they are vastly different not only in spectrum and details but also in the amount of funds they generate. I believe they are of the impression (this may be a language barrier thing again) that it is pre-sale platform because of companies like Japanime Games, Mantic, CMoN, etc that do seem to use it as that. However to not make the Kickstarter choice would still be the wrong choice. The majority of people trust Kickstarter slightly more than other programs. It isn't like it was 2 years ago but that isn't because its a pre-sale platform, it is because backers have more questions and are more aware now. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. Unless they have extra crowd funding backers from another source, any other option would be a mistake for them.

If it is an issue of KS or another crowdfunding platform, you might as well use KS. But otherwise I agree about KS. It is terribly difficult to go into KS nowadays, and the risks are pretty steep. It is really easy to make a misstep and lose your shirt even if the campaign is "successful." Almost everyone I have talked to who has run a successful KS campaign in the TTG industry regrets doing it, considered it a necessary evil, or did not consider the experience to have been an overall positive one.

KS is a crowdfunding platform, but it isn't what is was 2 years ago. 2 years ago you could come to KS with an idea and a smile. Nowadays in order to compete you've got to come with a finished, pre-production product, a marketing budget, a crowdfunding consultant, and two weeks of 16 hour work days to put in.

When it comes to table top games, KS is great if you want to market the crap out of your product in the hope of raising a couple hundred thousand dollars, but to do that you've got to sink in so much money and time on the front end that your risk is pretty darn significant. KS is also great for running a modest campaign in the hopes of pre-selling a very specific product (usually from an established company) to help pay for a production run.

With certain exceptions, KS is not the place where a startup TTG company can come with a few thousand dollars in hand and raise the capital to kickstart a business. By and large, the products you see being sold via Kickstarter are not the products you see being sold outside of a Kickstarter context, and that should tell you something. Lots of people feel that they need to go to Kickstarter, because that is where the action is. And that's true to an extent. There are a lot of customers that you will reach via Kickstarter that you won't easily reach any other way. But the customers you reach via Kickstarter come with a certain set of expectations. Trying to meet those expectations is what lands folks in trouble.

This is one reason why small, but established companies can do okay with limited KS campaigns. Mecha Front is a great example (to put Jon on the spot). You already have a nice, tight customer base, and those folks get your campaign started off on the right foot and probably form the bulk (or a significant proportion of) your KS backers. This makes KS a bit safer, although you still run the risk of getting caught up in your own schill and making a mis-calculation trying to draw in a larger customer base.

**Dark Severance**

Yonan wrote:
Not sure about the others, but Mantic doesn't use KS as pre orders - they do it to raise funding to develop new product lines, exactly what kickstarter is for. It seems as though there is a lot of misinformation on the topic.

I didn't say they do, I said that is the impression to a good amount of people. They are established companies that really don't need to seek crowdfunding to develop the product lines, they are fairly well developed by the time they go to Kickstarter. They say they use it as a means to generate funding for the initial tooling and a customer base. The impression it leaves is that they could of created the product line without Kickstarter because of funding generated from other products though. It isn't pre-orders in the traditional sense but it is a new type creature. Honestly from a business perspective it is a smart move. If the Kickstarter fails, you don't lose funds that were directed to tooling of a project you just have the sunk costs of the initial design and prototypes. If it succeeds, the funds pay for the tooling and you have a beginning customer base. If you read a lot of '3rd part sites though' that is what they say, although I really think its a marketing ploy to push crowdfunding to other websites.

**Dentry**

weeble1000 wrote:
Nowadays in order to compete you've got to come with a finished, pre-production product, a marketing budget, a crowdfunding consultant, and two weeks of 16 hour work days to put in.

There's definitely merit to what you're saying. Perhaps the best example would be Beyond the Gates of Antares; there was pedigree, ideas, and smiles galore but (for the amount they were asking) there wasn't much else by way of models to get people invested.

Obviously, when you're raising funding for a miniatures game then a lot rides on the strength of your miniatures. That's one area that Fallen Frontiers seems to have covered.

The landscape has changed, certainly, it always does but ultimately a good product is a good product and the trick is getting that point across. Larger companies do that by investing in physical prototypes, renders and artwork, then drive pledges with stretch goals. The backer base has a whole has also matured a bit having gone through several KS campaigns already. Concerns and questions are put forward that have come out of that. People want to know that there's a plan and that things have been worked out well enough that their investment wont just be a fart in wind.

All of this is simply to say that whatever concerns Scale Games have, they have a solid platform for their crowdfunding campaign in Kickstarter. Honestly, the biggest obstacle (to a successful campaign) for anyone having a good product seems to be management.

**Alpharius**

Exactly!

If being in a 'successful' Kickstarter these days means more up front prep work?

I think that's a good thing for ALL parties.

Ultimately, the campaign creators control *everything* - if they can do their homework first, and map out a campaign, they can still be as successful as possible.

And Kickstarter is still the best place to do that, as far as I can tell!

**weeble1000**

Alpharius wrote:
Exactly!

If being in a 'successful' Kickstarter these days means more up front prep work?

I think that's a good thing for ALL parties.

Ultimately, the campaign creators control *everything* - if they can do their homework first, and map out a campaign, they can still be as successful as possible.

And Kickstarter is still the best place to do that, as far as I can tell!

It is both good and bad Alph. Stay with me here:

It is great in the sense that it encourages campaign creators to have their ducks in a row. However, it is bad in the sense that 'having your ducks in a row' nowadays pretty much means 'completed pre-production'.

Completing pre-production can take a great deal of money up front. This means project creators have to get funding to...get funding? To a certain extent this is perfectly fine. If the project creator has no skin in the game, how do you know he/she is motivated to fulfill the pledge rewards? On the other hand, pre-production for certain types of products can involve more investment than many successfully funded TTG Kickstarters raise.

You can be in a situation where you need a Kickstarter for your Kickstarter! Which is obviously farcical, but I think you get my point. If the community is demanding a certain level of up-front, pre-campaign investment (largely because of the amount of up-front pre-campaign investment typically poured in by large, established companies that can afford to do so), then prospective project creators who do not have that type of pre-campaign funding are cut off from access to crowdfunding. That is, the people that most need crowdfunding can't get it, because established companies have queered the Kickstarter marketplace.

I think this is where criticism of Kickstarter comes from. Not all criticisms of Kickstarter are justified, of course, but there are consequences to how we, as TTG consumers, have treated Kickstarter. Ultimately it is a bed that we made, because if nobody had backed Zombicide (or any number of other examples, but I like to use Zombicide), then it wouldn't be the model to follow when organizing a Kickstarter campaign.

We have created an environment in which a Kickstarter pledge reward is often expected to be:

Professionally marketed
Received exactly as shown during the campaign
Delivered very quickly
Discounted over RRP

Given those prevalent expectations, is it surprising that people are saying Kickstarter is just a pre-order platform?

Edit: Note that I do not personally feel that Kickstarter is just a pre-order platform. But I do feel that Kickstarter has become less a tool for encouraging the growth of new table top games companies and more a tool for the swift release of new products developed by established players in the market.

You can still kickstart a new TTG business via the platform, but it is much, much harder to do so than it should be. I think one consequence is that we will see fewer and fewer truly new, innovative products on the market.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

I actually think expecting KS to help grow new TTG companies is a mistake (and something KS specifically disallows)

projects are expected to be finite and have an end which is why people trying to KS podcasts, painting services etc have had to be so creative in how they set up their KS, and why if you want to buy a new laser for your 3D terrain firm you need to actually produce something physical too.

so while a ks for 'Super Awesome Minigame X' may help the company that makes it (publicity, plus giving them something they can sell after the KS) this is a by-product and specifically not what KS intended itself to do.

(but I agree with the rest of your analysis)

**weeble1000**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I actually think expecting KS to help grow new TTG companies is a mistake (and something KS specifically disallows)

projects are expected to be finite and have an end which is why people trying to KS podcasts, painting services etc have had to be so creative in how they set up their KS, and why if you want to buy a new laser for your 3D terrain firm you need to actually produce something physical too.

so while a ks for 'Super Awesome Minigame X' may help the company that makes it (publicity, plus giving them something they can sell after the KS) this is a by-product and specifically not what KS intended itself to do.

(but I agree with the rest of your analysis)

I have to emphatically disagree (point out where KS specifically disallows growing new TTG companies). There is nothing about Kickstarter which prohibits producing a good or being a company. Kickstarter merely requires that a "project" be both "creative" and "finite." All this means that the project creator has to produce the item, the item must not already exist, i.e. it has to be created via the project, and that the project must have a finite goal, i.e. it must result in a specific thing being created.

Inherently, this fundraising platform is tailor-made to kickstart a business, so long as that business is looking to produce something specific that is new. Nothing about Kickstarter says that a project creator can't later sell what it creates via Kickstarter. And Kickstarter very much allows for the purchase of any equipment or materials necessary to create the "something to share with others."

In fact, Kickstarter is quite specifically for a "creator" that does not have access to traditional means of financing. I have an idea for a game. I want to share that game with others. I start a company and launch a Kickstarter campaign to raise the funds necessary to create that game. Together, the backers and I cooperate to achieve this finite goal: the creation of the game. I reward backers for their financial assistance by providing them a copy of said game. My company now has a product to sell (the game), thanks to Kickstarter. Later, I create another game without the assistance of Kickstarter because I now have a revenue stream from which to fund the development of new products. My company has been kickstarted because backers gave me the funds I needed to get my first product into production.

That's how it is supposed to work. It's just people giving money to someone that wants to create something specific. It doesn't matter if the "creator" is also the owner of an LLC so long as the project is intended to fund the creation of something specific.

From a much more fundamental perspective, Kicksterter is supposed to be for creators that would otherwise have trouble getting funding to create something. You know, like a guy who wants to create product but can't get a bank loan.

I think what you are missing is the bright, glaring fact that a lot of businesses start by creating something new that the owner wants to share with others. You can't kickstart a retail business with Kickstarter, but you can absolutely kickstart a business designed to sell something that you create.

Projects must create something to share with others.

Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

Projects can’t fundraise for charity, offer financial incentives, or involve prohibited items.
(We prohibit projects that are illegal, heavily regulated, or potentially dangerous for backers, as well as rewards that the creator did not make.)

Everything on Kickstarter must be a project. A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it.

Kickstarter does not allow projects to fundraise for charity or offer financial incentives. Check out our rules for details.

Resale. All rewards must have been produced or designed by the project or one of its creators — no reselling things from elsewhere.

**Alpharius**

At the end of the day, Kickstarter = Best Platform for Best Chance of Success, as long as the Creator realizes they are, and should always remain, in control.

**Dentry**

Yeah, all this is getting a bit off topic. We're focusing now on precedent rather than crowdsourcing platforms, of which I feel KS is the best option.

It seems the investment has already been made where Fallen Frontiers is concerned. They already have their models, renders, art. They just have to put it all together with the relevant info and structure their campaign appropriately.

Of course, they're going to need to have all the production and scheduling figured out as well to minimize delays. But that has to be done regardless.

**RiTides**

I think if they just stick to resin, I'd be interested. The scale is a bit of an issue, though- they're just too large for me to use really. I wish them the best of luck with their relaunch, though!