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The second update is live for Brawlmachine! Come check out the updated scenarios and the changes to the epic and FA:2 lists!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2022/1/6/brawlmachine-12

I don't really feel like the situation for WMH has improved since a year ago... but it also isn't dead yet and I think if they can keep going enough to endure eventually something will come together.

I'm not sure how positive I feel about the game. Even the topic for this year is "threat" instead of "thread" ..

I really feel like its one step forward, one step back for WM/H as a game. The huge update by Faye has a great thing, really made lots of models viable and opened up list building within the constrains of theme forces and made me excited to list build again. However despite all that, 1) Nobody apart from the current player base really knows about it. There is still 0 advertising or publicity to the wider wargaming community. 2) What’s the point if large portions of the world struggle get stock other than from ebay. Its not an issue that other game systems have. Malifaux, Infinity etc have no issue getting their product into stores in the UK and Europe.

PP also seems unable to keep hold of their talented staff members and seem to be spread so thin these days. I actually think it would be best for them to focus on their other games and just put WM/H into a maintenance mode, releasing the odd patch or campaign update rather than adding yet more factions to a system they have only just managed to balance, years after Mk3.

I have seen a lot of people looking for “another game” with all the things happening with 40K. Iv seen quite a few higher profile 40K players/youtubers/social media people look at Malifaux (which I play) and I have also seen Wyrd reach out to painters to get their products to them for showcases etc. Nothing from PP. What a great opportunity this could be. Pandemic hopefully coming to an end, people looking for new social hobbies, they could bring in a new generation of players. Instead, again, they are missing out on what should be basic steps.

Its telling that the single thing that seems to be responsible for ANY growth in the game is a fan made initiative. Brawlmachine is wonderful and Id like to buy the LOS guys a beer if I ever meet them. I know they love it and do it for the good of the game. But the fact that it was required at all and its probably the only thing bringing new blood to the game is damning, quite frankly.

I think the game itself is in a great spot. As ever the issues with WM/H is not what happens on the table. It’s the company and elements of the community.

That said. I am looking forward to getting out there and seeing what my new local WM/H community is like (iv just moved house) and im keen to paint my backlog. But WM/H is probably going to remain as my secondary game and im not going to buy anything else until im happy with the direction the company is moving. I will be playing Malifaux mostly I think.

I always seem to write longer post on WM/H but its because i want it to better than it is and its a real disappointment to me that its been so poorly managed

I'm interested in seeing what they do with the Orgoth. In terms of wmh activity or pp affiliated activity on the ground here - its... sparse...

I am being active though and have 14 trenchers and 2 trencher chaingun crews on my painting desk for a wee project.

(Kill-team/achine)

Nobody had played WMH locally in the last year, then right before the holidays two people pulled their WMH armies back out and there were eight of us standing around discussing the game in play and the current state of the base rules / Steamroller / Brawlmachine instead of playing other games ourselves. I'm personally buying back in (All in on Farrow 2022!) and I'm betting we'll see it pick back up for a while. Probably just long enough for me to get my piggies painted.

On Episode 202 of Line of Sight, Bret, Chandler, and Jaden are here to discuss the brand new update to Brawlmachine! Come and get the inside scoop on why changes were made, what other changes were considered, and what the future of the format in 2022 looks like. We’ve got all that and more on Episode 202 of Line of Sight!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/line-of-sight-podcast/2022/1/7/line-of-sight-episode-202-brawlmachine-2022-update

Oh yay, this thread turning into add space for a podcast again.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Oh yay, this thread turning into add space for a podcast again.

Rather than snark about it, click the triangle of friendship.

But yeah. Big reason I didn't bother keeping up with the previous thread.

Except I don't have a problem with him or the content of the post, I just think it is off topic in this particular thread.

NinthMusketeer wrote:Oh yay, this thread turning into add space for a podcast again.

Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Oh yay, this thread turning into add space for a podcast again.

Rather than snark about it, click the triangle of friendship.

But yeah. Big reason I didn't bother keeping up with the previous thread.

I think that, in itself, does actually describe the state of Warmachine/Hordes: there's like one, small community that still is active, but it's otherwise mostly reminiscing about "when it was good," or wishing PP would do something more to actually promote their game. Unless PP takes some major action otherwise, I think the game is going to have the slow, painful, lingering decline until it's not much more than a cult favorite but practically unsupported.

 Valander wrote:

I think that, in itself, does actually describe the state of Warmachine/Hordes: there's like one, small community that still is active, but it's otherwise mostly reminiscing about "when it was good," or wishing PP would do something more to actually promote their game.

It used to be a really large game where I live during 40k's 6th/7th edition run. I got into the game precisely because I hated the rules directions of 40k. But after playing the game just a ton, going to tournaments, etc... The game wasn't nearly as balanced as advertised and the terrain rules just made the game plain and not very interesting.

When 3rd edition rolled around I was hoping for major fixes to balance the game, power up the gargantuan units and many of the casters but that didn't happen. I hated the fury and ability changes to horde units and that was really the end of the road. Many people in my area were just as disappointed in 3rd edition as I was and just quit playing. 8th edition 40k came out, and that really was the end. I'm sure Malifaux and X-Wing didn't help either. It would take a complete redesign of the rules to bring back players IMO. New armies isn't fixing core problems with the game.

I'm not sure why there is so much negativity around Warmachine, much more than for any other game.
Even worse, while I read quite a bit, I still don't understand why. I get that MK3 wasn't that well received? some balance issues?
Not really sure what's the problem - 40k has a new edition every 3 years or so, as for how balanced the game is...oh well.

Regarding the state of Warmachine: on boardgamegeek, a user keeps tracking of log plays for miniature games and releases monthly a list with the most played minis game. I compiled the numbers and made a list with the most played miniature games in 2021. Granted, this list is based on bgg log plays - which is more a place for boardgamers than minis gamers, and not everybody log their plays. But I still think that it can give you a hint about how popular certain games are.
The data shows that Star Wars games and GW ones are the most popular (no surprise). After that, there is A Song of Ice and Fire and Infinity, then Battletech, Bolt Action, Frostgrave, Malifaux, LOTR, Saga, Godtear.
Then comes Warmachine. It's not doing great, for certain. But it is very far from dead, also. The game took a big hit from Covid - the biggest drop was between 2019-2020. But it is still the most popular game from PP. More popular than Sails of glory, Kings of War and Deadzone. And I don't hear so much doom and gloom for KoW, even if the game has a direct competitor in Conquest.
Anyway, for those interested in the list - https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/294054/most-played-miniature-games-2021

I for one am interested in getting into Warmachine. It looks like a really cool game, with badass models, a unique universe/setting, and a strong set of rules. as a former mtg player I love deck/army building and synergy. I've found a 2 player battlebox and I think i'm gonna get it and learn the game with my family.

 emanuelb wrote:

I for one am interested in getting into Warmachine.

The GAME as it is right now, as it is on the tabletop, is genuinely super. For the record if i could just play with a small group of friends at my house and ignore all the rest of PP and the wider community i would. And i would have fun.

Most peoples issues and negativity comes from everything else around the game in the last few year. And a desperate desire for PP "become great again"

There were a large number of players that had burned themselves out on the game and the faults in MK3 gave them an opportunity to get off the treadmill. A lot of them have had a salt the earth mentality ever since, apparently spending way more time than I do on the game's social media trying to be as negative as possible.

In any case, the main issue with the game as it stands is a lack of new player content. There aren't really any good starters or other products that are friendly for stores to stock. What HAS vastly improved is the community interest in more varied game types and unofficial formats like Brawl/Clashmachine have greatly improved the communities interest in playing at scales that are approachable for new players. It's truly a great game and it seems to have finally shaken a lot of its toxic fanbase to get back to a point where all its endless variety can be fun again.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Oh yay, this thread turning into add space for a podcast again.

Fair enough, I'll make a separate thread for all of the stuff we've got going on.

 LoS_Jaden wrote:
The second update is live for Brawlmachine! Come check out the updated scenarios and the changes to the epic and FA:2 lists!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2022/1/6/brawlmachine-12

Brawlmachine offers some incentive to get back into WMH.
I've seen some typical lists in the above link.
How long will such games last?

How long will such games last?

How long will a game of brawlmachine last? About and hour?

How long will WM/H last when its possibly only community initiatives keeping it alive? I suppose we shall see.

How long will WM/H last when its possibly only community initiatives keeping it alive? I suppose we shall see.

Never understood why the game went downhill shortly after the introduction of MK3.

 wuestenfux wrote:

How long will WM/H last when its possibly only community initiatives keeping it alive? I suppose we shall see.

Never understood why the game went downhill shortly after the introduction of MK3.

Regarding my local area themes just killed off all interest, armies which were fun to play suddenly couldn't compete properly vs the theme armies getting good bonuses and like, 10-15 bonus points in support/solos which freed up more space for killing threats

Then the constant updating of rules and units in a rotating belt combo'ed with how god damn difficult getting models from PP into some parts of the UK just made the game go from great fun to throw models down to just not appealing for limited hobby time.

Plus if Im totally honest, 75 pt games were awful as the game was one huge mosh pit eventually and local communities unwillingness to go down to 50 pts for sake of ease of play over time just haemorrhaged more players until not enough to justify booking weekly/monthly hobby table space for the system.

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

How long will WM/H last when its possibly only community initiatives keeping it alive? I suppose we shall see.

Never understood why the game went downhill shortly after the introduction of MK3.

Regarding my local area themes just killed off all interest, armies which were fun to play suddenly couldn't compete properly vs the theme armies getting good bonuses and like, 10-15 bonus points in support/solos which freed up more space for killing threats

Then the constant updating of rules and units in a rotating belt combo'ed with how god damn difficult getting models from PP into some parts of the UK just made the game go from great fun to throw models down to just not appealing for limited hobby time.

Plus if Im totally honest, 75 pt games were awful as the game was one huge mosh pit eventually and local communities unwillingness to go down to 50 pts for sake of ease of play over time just haemorrhaged more players until not enough to justify booking weekly/monthly hobby table space for the system.

Okay, I understand.
Our local players have quit WMH in 2018 shortly after the release of MK3.
I didn't follow the game after this but realized this exodus.
How did PP approach these problems?
Brawlmachine is an alternative format that counters most of the problems mentioned above.

The game is bloated and prices obscene. The barriers of entry to 75pts games are insurmountable for any sane person from outside of the game (ie not already hooked) and even maintaining a playable collection became a problem - both $-wise and keeping up with new stuff which had absurd amount of special rules to memorise.

At the same time most of the community were swearing by 75pts games as the only proper way of playing the game, thus gatekeeping it from any new blood. It kind of ended with Brawlmachine, but the damage had already been done.

Thanks both for the clarifying comments.
I'll consider Brawlmachine and try to organize a few games.

For me it just felt mk3 was a rushed cash grab full of changes rather than improvements.

More importantly to me pp used to be the 'different' approach company. With mk3 they did everything they claimed gw did and they'd never do.

They had to redesign skorne from the ground up straight out of the gate. I didn't like themes and I didnt like how bloated the game was becoming, both on the tabletop and in the rosters. As a khador player I saw nothing that excited me for years. The design space was just cluttered and loads if the new ideas were just soulless. They run out of ideas. While I love the models, trencher long gunners was one example. What's next? Winter guard pikemen? Iron fang kommandos?

Add to that pp made a lot of anti-retailer decisions at that time which turned retail against them and killed their forums which alienated a lot of fans (I was glad the forum was killed; to me it was a toxic salt mine poisoned by group think and zero creativity) but still... no quarter was canned which crushed me. There was no new fiction from skull Island. Hell there was no new fiction. It was just a great reset right hack to where it all started. Mk2 had better plot lines like caine/magnus/julius. Mk3 fekt like 'the great reset'. Toruk assaulted the mainland directly. And then went back home. No change. Khador gave back point Bourne. With the start of mk2 there were seismic shifts. Mk3 didn't give me that.

Where I am in the UK the player base was struggling though the end of mk2. It was dropping off. Mk3 just didn't get people involved enough.

Add to that was the gw renaissance at this time. Like it or not gw turned a corner and were doing gangbusters on so many fronts. Combine pp's misteps with gw stepping up their game and that's only going one way.

To clear it up, the game itself is absolutely awesome. Decisions, options, player agency are incomparable to any other wargame I have played. Whenever a friend of mine talks me into playing a game of WH40K, it feels like some outdated, dumb Snakes&Ladders in comparison.

It's just that the barriers of entry are painful and the learning curve steep. But behind them lies a world of intellectual satisfaction you won't get from any GW games.

Don't forget that 40K launched its 8th Edition pretty close to that time, and that was very well received.

I know a lot of people that were on the "my ex is looking good" train at the time. A lot of the crowd that once trashed 40K and sang WM's praises flipped their tune with 8th. That's not to say there weren't stumbles, but I definitely saw people full on swan diving on toothpicks to feel suitably hurt to bow out.

FWIW, for whatever issues the game had, I think the real damage came from how they managed the market and focused on appeasing their hardcore playerbase. Online retailers had pretty heavily devalued their product to the point where it was essentially impossible for physical retail to carry their out of control sea of SKUs. Correcting that at the same time they were dropping the miserable, but affordable PVC for expensive resin meant some pretty huge sticker shock.

To be honest though, I'm not even sure if that's the real issue. So much of PP's company identity was built on this "no squatting" mindset they were always going to hit a brick wall when distribution flipped to a "new hotness"/planned obsolescence model. Getting something past launch week is basically impossible these days regardless of what game you're talking about and Warmachine really isn't capable of keeping up with that kind of market. It's advantage is the near endless variety and while a lot of themes have tried to shift to an "army of the month" style in keeping with where GW finds its success; its not at all what makes the game special or fun. I think a big part of the latest update has been a course correction away from that, which has really helped the game find its feet again, but there's still a huge question of just how to sell the physical product.

I think a big part of the latest update has been a course correction away from that, which has really helped the game find its feet again, but there's still a huge question of just how to sell the physical product.

The damage has already been done and coming back to the feet is questionable.
In our gaming group, there were lots of WMH players with armies shelved but nobody wants to come back atm.

I think a big part of the latest update has been a course correction away from that, which has really helped the game find its feet again, but there's still a huge question of just how to sell the physical product.

Communication, communication, communications.

PP needs to "get out there" and engage with people. Not its existing base of fanboys and white knights, but the rest of the wargaming community. Biggest update/balance in the recent history of the game, no messages, no engagement with youtubers, media, no articles. Nothing. Who knows about it? Where is the narrative? Where is the message?

You want to sell products, get people interested etc you need to advertise it and show it to new people. PP is once again just leaving it up to a small section of the fan base and hoping for the best. Really, as a company, PP doesn't even talk or interact with its existing fans, it just give them messages. Wyrd, Corvus Belli, Broken Anvil, Goblin King, GW and hell even the producers of historical stuff like Gripping Beasts talk and advertise to everyone. That's why i can go onto something like OnTableTop and see updates in the last few days from Malifaux to Warlord Games to Conquest to GW to Oak and Iron to Nepolionic gaming to the next kickstarter. PP, hardly anything ever.

The game is great, The company is "well wack bruv"

Cyel wrote:
The game is bloated and prices obscene. The barriers of entry to 75pts games are insurmountable for any sane person from outside of the game (ie not already hooked) and even maintaining a playable collection became a problem - both $-wise and keeping up with new stuff which had absurd amount of special rules to memorise.

At the same time most of the community were swearing by 75pts games as the only proper way of playing the game, thus gatekeeping it from any new blood. It kind of ended with Brawlmachine, but the damage had already been done.

But is the barrier of entry worse than in 40k? Getting into Warhammer is tough - a 2000 points army costs a lot, and every unit has a ton of rules, keywords and exceptions to the rules. The models themselves are expensive (duh). The same problems exist for most big wargames - AoS, Kings of War, Conquests - it's the nature of the beast, you need lots of models.
I think the only thing that bothers me regarding Warmachine is the fact that you need 2 armies in competitions. But even that can be partially mitigated by having mostly the same models, plus I have to say it adds to the strategy (it's like sideboard in mtg).