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2023/01/11 15:54:55
Subject: DnD OGL 1.1 and canceling my subscription
Hello, after 3+ years of running games on the Beyond Dungeon Master subscription, buying all my books, I have cancelled my subscription to WoTC over their new OGL 1.1 issue. Has anyone else stopped supporting them?
For those who don't know: Hasbro, the owner of WoTC, recently hired a new CEO and CFO. Both of them stated openly that their main goal is to increase the "monetization of DND". This is going to be done through more digital sales, subscription services, and their new product, OneDnD. The overarching cherry on top of this is that WoTC recently released a updated OGL, called OGL 1.1, which literally states that anyone who makes money off their IP, owes them money. So Critical Roll, Kobold Press, Paizo, etc. This is being seen as an open attack on the Open DnD community that has literally made DnD what it is today.
Oh, and there is another tasty morsel: WoTC reserves the right to alter, change, update, and nullify any license granted, in perpetuity and in history. So if you ever strike a deal with them, to use their IP, and you make a ton of money (Pathfinder) they can say, "We've changed the deal, you now owe us HALF".
So I am canceling my services through WoTC, and wanted to know if anyone else saw this, and how they reacted? I feel like this is an insanely dumb approach to engaging with your most core fans.
WoTC has gone dark and silent since the leak, neither confirming or denying it, or even answering questions from reporters on the issue. They released a "tweet" this morning saying they'll address it "soon".
The overarching cherry on top of this is that WoTC recently released a updated OGL, called OGL 1.1, which literally states that anyone who makes money off their IP, owes them money. So Critical Roll, Kobold Press, Paizo, etc. This is being seen as an open attack on the Open DnD community that has literally made DnD what it is today.
A couple things:
First, this is already in the D&D thread.
They didn't release anything. There was a leak. And it 'literally' doesn't say anything like that.
There are very specific changes to terms, most of which affect game materials and in particular, revenue over $750,000. It doesn't affect streams of D&D play at all (such as Critical Role, which you mention, though it would affect the game books they've put out).
The actual big bugbear in the leaked document, is WotC asserting rights to other people's products produced under the OGL. IF (and that's a big if) that's even vaguely legal, and they try to claim that when they actually produce the text for 'OGL 1.1,' then its a problem.
Reactions so far have quickly become inaccurate reactions to other people's inaccurate reactions, not what's in the leaked documents.
And to reiterate, so far, nothing has actually happened.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2023/01/11 20:18:37
Subject: DnD OGL 1.1 and canceling my subscription
The overarching cherry on top of this is that WoTC recently released a updated OGL, called OGL 1.1, which literally states that anyone who makes money off their IP, owes them money. So Critical Roll, Kobold Press, Paizo, etc. This is being seen as an open attack on the Open DnD community that has literally made DnD what it is today.
A couple things:
First, this is already in the D&D thread.
They didn't release anything. There was a leak. And it 'literally' doesn't say anything like that.
There are very specific changes to terms, most of which affect game materials and in particular, revenue over $750,000. It doesn't affect streams of D&D play at all (such as Critical Role, which you mention, though it would affect the game books they've put out).
The actual big bugbear in the leaked document, is WotC asserting rights to other people's products produced under the OGL. IF (and that's a big if) that's even vaguely legal, and they try to claim that when they actually produce the text for 'OGL 1.1,' then its a problem.
Reactions so far have quickly become inaccurate reactions to other people's inaccurate reactions, not what's in the leaked documents.
And to reiterate, so far, nothing has actually happened.
Thats not quite true either.
It does state the 750k thing. But that part only covers PDFs and Printed books. Any other form of revenue stream has to be addressed separately and at their own discretion. The stream of Critical Role is fine, but any pay walls for patreon content or some such are not and are actually strictly forbidden. Wanna make a tee shirt? No you can't. Wanna make a statue of your character from the live play/podcast using dnd? Can't sell it. Not without their express permission and THAT permission is set up to come with them getting a slice of your revenue.
Further, they have clauses to reserve the right to change any part of the agreement at any time with a 30 day notice. That includes that 750k clause and the 25/20% take. They could decide 6 months after release that it's now 20.00. at 50% and you would have 30 days to either shut all your gak down or start paying them.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2023/01/11 20:54:36
Subject: DnD OGL 1.1 and canceling my subscription
Oh, and there is another tasty morsel: WoTC reserves the right to alter, change, update, and nullify any license granted, in perpetuity and in history. So if you ever strike a deal with them, to use their IP, and you make a ton of money (Pathfinder) they can say, "We've changed the deal, you now owe us HALF".
So I am canceling my services through WoTC, and wanted to know if anyone else saw this, and how they reacted? I feel like this is an insanely dumb approach to engaging with your most core fans.
WoTC has gone dark and silent since the leak, neither confirming or denying it, or even answering questions from reporters on the issue. They released a "tweet" this morning saying they'll address it "soon".
Yup, basically you're business is only semi-guaranteed for 30 days. If you publish something they like (or simply like something they don't), they can tell you to close up shop and destroy all copies within 30 days, copy your work wholesale and sell it in their own product, call you various unsavory things purely at their extremist discretion, and you can't do anything about it including suing them. Those aren't terms that you can depend on for a living or even a hobby frankly and I don't see myself supporting it either. That said, they haven't actually been making money off of me other than the occasional mini here and there so it's not a big loss in my particular case. I joined a campaign recently but I've been using the sharing feature on beyond and haven't spent a dime so far.
Technically, though, they did make an annoucement yesterday... of a future annoucement at some point. Lol. It's not completely dark and silent but rather a quiet fart under a new moon.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2023/01/11 20:55:19
Subject: DnD OGL 1.1 and canceling my subscription
So I am canceling my services through WoTC, and wanted to know if anyone else saw this, and how they reacted? I feel like this is an insanely dumb approach to engaging with your most core fans.
D20 has been a bad game for a very long time. I have been out of their clutches forever. The only 5e or 4e purchases I made were Eberron source books because the setting is cool.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2023/01/11 21:14:54
Subject: DnD OGL 1.1 and canceling my subscription
Another point is that the $750K is on revenue not profits. For some of the larger firms this could still be well within their operating costs before you actually get to profits, which could be far more marginal.
Yes revenue is likely them trying to get around someone just lowering their profits by increasing overhead to "hide" the profits within; but at the same time its going to hit a lot of firms that are on the borderline of profitability by adding another cost after a few years of very strong rising costs of doing business for many (eg rising costs of utilities).
If Wizards push through with this approach they'll likely enjoy a few good years of increased profits from a new edition hype and from companies having to pay them because they can't just close shop that fast.
However medium term I'd expect to see a massive swing away from DnD. Plus RPG games don't need huge unified customer bases to function* and with Kickstarter and other crowd funding already providing decent money for expansions, there's ample room for a lot of smaller firms to make their own rules systems (heck they can near enough just copy 5th ed in all but names and such because you can't copyright rules themselves, just the wording and naming).
This could well be a moment that DnD destroys its near market monopoly and fragments in a dozen smaller RPG firms. Again rather like MTG increasing their number of cards, range of cards, card volume and "£1K for 3 sets" type deals; its all short term profit generating management ideas that have little to no thought for the next 5 years let alone the long term.
DnD is what it is partly because of the original open licence that encouraged and allowed 3rd parties to devote their work and employment to working in the DnD system and if Wizards were smart they could keep riding that train for good healthy profit.
Taking away that open licence when 95% of DnD is basically generic fantasy elements and when their whole product is unprotectable rules coupled to a lore setting and Wizards are trading on name, market position and the weight of their lore alone. Lore is powerful but I don't think their lore is "that" powerful .
*Larping would be an exception to this and I'd say Larping to Tabletop, whilst related, are quite different in mechanics. Larping does have a lot more inter-group interactions and the like
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/11 21:15:09
DnD is what it is partly because of the original open licence that encouraged and allowed 3rd parties to devote their work and employment to working in the DnD system and if Wizards were smart they could keep riding that train for good healthy profit.
Taking away that open licence when 95% of DnD is basically generic fantasy elements and when their whole product is unprotectable rules coupled to a lore setting and Wizards are trading on name, market position and the weight of their lore alone. Lore is powerful but I don't think their lore is "that" powerful .
On this point... I actually think this is good thing in many ways. Not for the people making money selling D&D 3rd party supplements, obviously, but...
The 'RPG industry' has been the 'D&D industry' for far too long. Its been easier to camp on this corpse rather than branch out and see new, potentially better games have their time in the sun. (There are exceptions, but companies like Palladium and White Wolf had their own... issues)
If this falls apart, it might lead to a more diverse RPG industry rather than so much D&D derivative material.
Assuming anything comes of this at all, of course. For the general audience, even if the OGL comes out as leaked, I expect the effect to be mostly on the internet and the small publishers. The general audience will keep buying D&D and not notice much.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/11 22:43:30
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2023/01/12 18:04:50
Subject: DnD OGL 1.1 and canceling my subscription
According to info - at 3pm (I assume USA time) today the new licence is going to be put into effect.
I've seen several stores/groups now asking for people to make backups of their DnD characters and then cancel their subscriptions in a form of community protest. The hope being that Wizards might not respond to angry words, but if their flagship service for generating profit sees a nosedive that might have more actual impact.
There are two threads for this, so I'll post this here as well.
I can't link to Paizo's website because, well, the announcement has caused it to crash, so I'll repost the text here:
Paizo wrote:PAIZO ANNOUNCES SYSTEM-NEUTRAL OPEN RPG LICENSE
For the last several weeks, as rumors of Wizards of the Coast’s new version of the Open Game License began circulating among publishers and on social media, gamers across the world have been asking what Paizo plans to do in light of concerns regarding Wizards of the Coast’s rumored plan to de-authorize the existing OGL 1.0(a). We have been awaiting further information, hoping that Wizards would realize that, for more than 20 years, the OGL has been a mutually beneficial license which should not–and cannot–be revoked. While we continue to await an answer from Wizards, we strongly feel that Paizo can no longer delay making our own feelings about the importance of Open Gaming a part of the public discussion.
We believe that any interpretation that the OGL 1.0 or 1.0(a) were intended to be revocable or able to be deauthorized is incorrect, and with good reason.
We were there.
Paizo owner Lisa Stevens and Paizo president Jim Butler were leaders on the Dungeons & Dragons team at Wizards at the time. Brian Lewis, co-founder of Azora Law, the intellectual property law firm that Paizo uses, was the attorney at Wizards who came up with the legal framework for the OGL itself. Paizo has also worked very closely on OGL-related issues with Ryan Dancey, the visionary who conceived the OGL in the first place.
Paizo does not believe that the OGL 1.0a can be “deauthorized,” ever. While we are prepared to argue that point in a court of law if need be, we don’t want to have to do that, and we know that many of our fellow publishers are not in a position to do so.
We have no interest whatsoever in Wizards’ new OGL. Instead, we have a plan that we believe will irrevocably and unquestionably keep alive the spirit of the Open Game License.
As Paizo has evolved, the parts of the OGL that we ourselves value have changed. When we needed to quickly bring out Pathfinder First Edition to continue publishing our popular monthly adventures back in 2008, using Wizards’ language was important and expeditious. But in our non-RPG products, including our Pathfinder Tales novels, the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, and others, we shifted our focus away from D&D tropes to lean harder into ideas from our own writers. By the time we went to work on Pathfinder Second Edition, Wizards of the Coast’s Open Game Content was significantly less important to us, and so our designers and developers wrote the new edition without using Wizards’ copyrighted expressions of any game mechanics. While we still published it under the OGL, the reason was no longer to allow Paizo to use Wizards’ expressions, but to allow other companies to use our expressions.
We believe, as we always have, that open gaming makes games better, improves profitability for all involved, and enriches the community of gamers who participate in this amazing hobby. And so we invite gamers from around the world to join us as we begin the next great chapter of open gaming with the release of a new open, perpetual, and irrevocable Open RPG Creative License (ORC).
The new Open RPG Creative License will be built system agnostic for independent game publishers under the legal guidance of Azora Law, an intellectual property law firm that represents Paizo and several other game publishers. Paizo will pay for this legal work. We invite game publishers worldwide to join us in support of this system-agnostic license that allows all games to provide their own unique open rules reference documents that open up their individual game systems to the world. To join the effort and provide feedback on the drafts of this license, please sign up by using this form.
In addition to Paizo, Kobold Press, Chaosium, Legendary Games, Rogue Genius, Green Ronin, and a growing list of publishers have already agreed to participate in the Open RPG Creative License, and in the coming days we hope and expect to add substantially to this group.
The ORC will not be owned by Paizo, nor will it be owned by any company who makes money publishing RPGs. Azora Law’s ownership of the process and stewardship should provide a safe harbor against any company being bought, sold, or changing management in the future and attempting to rescind rights or nullify sections of the license. Ultimately, we plan to find a nonprofit with a history of open source values to own this license (such as the Linux Foundation).
Of course, Paizo plans to continue publishing Pathfinder and Starfinder, even as we move away from the Open Gaming License. Since months’ worth of products are still at the printer, you’ll see the familiar OGL 1.0(a) in the back of our products for a while yet. While the Open RPG Creative License is being finalized, we’ll be printing Pathfinder and Starfinder products without any license, and we’ll add the finished license to those products when the new license is complete.
We hope that you will continue to support Paizo and other game publishers in this difficult time for the entire hobby. You can do your part by supporting the many companies that have provided content under the OGL. Support Pathfinder and Starfinder by visiting your local game store, subscribing to Pathfinder and Starfinder, or taking advantage of discount code OpenGaming during checkout for 25% off your purchase of the Core Rulebook, Core Rulebook Pocket Edition, or Pathfinder Beginner Box. Support Kobold Press, Green Ronin, Legendary Games, Roll for Combat, Rogue Genius Games, and other publishers working to preserve a prosperous future for Open Gaming that is both perpetual AND irrevocable.
We’ll be there at your side. You can count on us not to go back on our word.
Paizo is throwing down the gauntlet! They have so many on board already. If Critical role joins under that license as well WotC would really have slain one of their golden geese.
Mind you D&D does not go away, but talk about antagonise your core audience.
Thing is this isn't just antagonising their core audience, its antagonising their core business partners and their core audience at the same time (and if people actually stick to their unsubbing of things like their online services for long enough; also antagonising their shareholders too)
I'd be shocked if this destroyed DnD, but I do think its driven a hard nail into their market dominance. Of course it will take time for that to become evident, but right now it seems that even if they roll back entirely, the damage is done.
Of course if they rolled back many firms would breath a big sigh of relief for projects that are in the works right now. It will settle things. It won't stop the creation of the new licence and we'd likely reach a time where many would provide content for both.
Wizards have created their own competition and given it a massive head start in marketing.
It would take years for it to drive even the first nail (since the edition doesn't even release until next year) just like the GSL. Casuals play whatever others are playing whether virtual or in person at the store and most non-hardcore players will still not have heard about the OGL drama when 6e releases even if WOTC sticks their heels in and refuses to budge. But, if they do that then things will slowly change.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2023/01/13 13:57:24
Subject: DnD OGL 1.1 and canceling my subscription
H.B.M.C. wrote: There are two threads for this, so I'll post this here as well.
I can't link to Paizo's website because, well, the announcement has caused it to crash, so I'll repost the text here:
Spoiler:
Paizo wrote:PAIZO ANNOUNCES SYSTEM-NEUTRAL OPEN RPG LICENSE
For the last several weeks, as rumors of Wizards of the Coast’s new version of the Open Game License began circulating among publishers and on social media, gamers across the world have been asking what Paizo plans to do in light of concerns regarding Wizards of the Coast’s rumored plan to de-authorize the existing OGL 1.0(a). We have been awaiting further information, hoping that Wizards would realize that, for more than 20 years, the OGL has been a mutually beneficial license which should not–and cannot–be revoked. While we continue to await an answer from Wizards, we strongly feel that Paizo can no longer delay making our own feelings about the importance of Open Gaming a part of the public discussion.
We believe that any interpretation that the OGL 1.0 or 1.0(a) were intended to be revocable or able to be deauthorized is incorrect, and with good reason.
We were there.
Paizo owner Lisa Stevens and Paizo president Jim Butler were leaders on the Dungeons & Dragons team at Wizards at the time. Brian Lewis, co-founder of Azora Law, the intellectual property law firm that Paizo uses, was the attorney at Wizards who came up with the legal framework for the OGL itself. Paizo has also worked very closely on OGL-related issues with Ryan Dancey, the visionary who conceived the OGL in the first place.
Paizo does not believe that the OGL 1.0a can be “deauthorized,” ever. While we are prepared to argue that point in a court of law if need be, we don’t want to have to do that, and we know that many of our fellow publishers are not in a position to do so.
We have no interest whatsoever in Wizards’ new OGL. Instead, we have a plan that we believe will irrevocably and unquestionably keep alive the spirit of the Open Game License.
As Paizo has evolved, the parts of the OGL that we ourselves value have changed. When we needed to quickly bring out Pathfinder First Edition to continue publishing our popular monthly adventures back in 2008, using Wizards’ language was important and expeditious. But in our non-RPG products, including our Pathfinder Tales novels, the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, and others, we shifted our focus away from D&D tropes to lean harder into ideas from our own writers. By the time we went to work on Pathfinder Second Edition, Wizards of the Coast’s Open Game Content was significantly less important to us, and so our designers and developers wrote the new edition without using Wizards’ copyrighted expressions of any game mechanics. While we still published it under the OGL, the reason was no longer to allow Paizo to use Wizards’ expressions, but to allow other companies to use our expressions.
We believe, as we always have, that open gaming makes games better, improves profitability for all involved, and enriches the community of gamers who participate in this amazing hobby. And so we invite gamers from around the world to join us as we begin the next great chapter of open gaming with the release of a new open, perpetual, and irrevocable Open RPG Creative License (ORC).
The new Open RPG Creative License will be built system agnostic for independent game publishers under the legal guidance of Azora Law, an intellectual property law firm that represents Paizo and several other game publishers. Paizo will pay for this legal work. We invite game publishers worldwide to join us in support of this system-agnostic license that allows all games to provide their own unique open rules reference documents that open up their individual game systems to the world. To join the effort and provide feedback on the drafts of this license, please sign up by using this form.
In addition to Paizo, Kobold Press, Chaosium, Legendary Games, Rogue Genius, Green Ronin, and a growing list of publishers have already agreed to participate in the Open RPG Creative License, and in the coming days we hope and expect to add substantially to this group.
The ORC will not be owned by Paizo, nor will it be owned by any company who makes money publishing RPGs. Azora Law’s ownership of the process and stewardship should provide a safe harbor against any company being bought, sold, or changing management in the future and attempting to rescind rights or nullify sections of the license. Ultimately, we plan to find a nonprofit with a history of open source values to own this license (such as the Linux Foundation).
Of course, Paizo plans to continue publishing Pathfinder and Starfinder, even as we move away from the Open Gaming License. Since months’ worth of products are still at the printer, you’ll see the familiar OGL 1.0(a) in the back of our products for a while yet. While the Open RPG Creative License is being finalized, we’ll be printing Pathfinder and Starfinder products without any license, and we’ll add the finished license to those products when the new license is complete.
We hope that you will continue to support Paizo and other game publishers in this difficult time for the entire hobby. You can do your part by supporting the many companies that have provided content under the OGL. Support Pathfinder and Starfinder by visiting your local game store, subscribing to Pathfinder and Starfinder, or taking advantage of discount code OpenGaming during checkout for 25% off your purchase of the Core Rulebook, Core Rulebook Pocket Edition, or Pathfinder Beginner Box. Support Kobold Press, Green Ronin, Legendary Games, Roll for Combat, Rogue Genius Games, and other publishers working to preserve a prosperous future for Open Gaming that is both perpetual AND irrevocable.
We’ll be there at your side. You can count on us not to go back on our word.
Forever.
–Paizo Inc.
Now, while this sounds good and noble and all, its barely been a couple years since Paizo's workers had to unionize to force Paizo's management to live up to their own stated values. So 'you can count us not to go back on our word' is a bit...dubious.
Mostly they're just business savvy enough to realize that WotC is repeating their own unforced error that allowed Pathfinder to happen in the first place.
