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How do!

And so we come to it. The great discussion of our time. And it centres of course on Commissar Ciaphas Cain. And whether or not he is a massive fraud.

Needless to say it’s gonna help if you’ve read some, perhaps all his novels. Mostly because they’re ace, but also because first hand opinion is gonna be paramount here, over “this person said that” type second or third hand.

Anyways, I’m genuinely in two minds about it. Whilst Cain very much underestimates his own bravery, and may perhaps lack insight into what motivates other people? I don’t think it can be denied he tries to bag himself Cushy Jobs, far away from the dangers of the front line where possible.

That of course rather bucks the trend of Commissars, who are more commonly seen keeping the soldiery on the front lines. Yet it cannot be denied that when push comes to shove, Cain’s actions and antics do snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, or allow the Imperial Forces to stop third party interference.

He also sees his command style as entirely self interested. Yet, by not taking unnecessary risks where possible, or simply running in Lasguns blazing, his caution has preserved the lives of those under his command. This includes not just leaving injured Troopers to die, but trying at least trying to get them back home for proper medical treatment.

All of those contribute to his popularity within the regiments he’s served with, and in so doing likely does more to promote Morale than, y’know, the more traditionalist approach of many Commissars. Which in turn feeds back into Cain, as once he’s shown discretion in one area, he fears his reputation will be shattered if he doesn’t apply it in other areas, where appropriate. And so we end up with a cyclical pattern of behaviour.

Overall, I don’t think he is as cowardly as he thinks. It seems likely it’s instead a form of impostor syndrome which is a direct result of his Schola education. Rather than “shout, shout, and shout again”, he takes a rather more effective route to discharge his duties. He knows the “correct” way to do things. But sees the other options. He’s also happy to not interfere unless absolutely necessary, trusting his Regiment and its officers to know their own onions. But because that’s not how other Commissars go about it, he has ingrained doubts about his own abilities and decision making process, regardless it’s made him an incredibly effective officer. This includes his often impiety, not simply trusting that The Emperor Protects, figuring Him on Earth has better things to do than save Cain’s wretched neck.

What do you reckon? Because there’s certainly plenty of room to argue other ways.

Isn't that like... the entire point of Cains character though? Thats how his series of books was presented to me, anyway. An "accidental hero" who constantly falls upwards when all he's really trying to do is survive and more or less avoid his duties.

I’m not sure he is an accidental hero though.

As a Commissar, he absolutely, 100% does his job, and is genuinely good at it. He has Kasteen and Broklaw’s backs. His punishments are pretty even handed.

Whilst he often sees himself as solely concerned with his own self preservation, he does extend that to his Regiment, erring on the side of caution rather than just wasting lives.

This has the further knock-on effect of ensuring a good count of Veterans in his Regiment, increasing their overall efficiency in the theatre of battle.

And we can’t overlook that when danger rears its ugly head? Cain only rarely runs away. Sometimes it’s a genuine tactical withdrawal. A “no way can the folks with me right now handle this” withdrawal, under stealth.

Yet he seems entirely blind to the fact that, however he feels about his self justification in the moment, he absolutely is a hero.

It’s basically the definition of bravery, I guess. Bravery isn’t the absence of fear or concern for one’s own safety. It’s having those but doing The Right Thing regardless.

Though given the supernatural absolutely exists within 40K, it is possible he’s an unrecognised saint. Someone The Emperor has taken an interest in, and is having their destiny nudged and prodded in the right direction for the best possible outcome.

I'd argue that Commissars in general are less trigger-happy than commonly presented, and do routinely use other methods to raise morale amongst the general soldiery. Carrot and stick. I think it is noticeable that every special character Commissar that has been in a Guard codex only executes troopers rarely and is given to inspiration more than intimidation. Some Commissars obviously do know no approach other than fear... but they are also the Commissars that tend to experience "accidents" once the bullets start flying...

Wasting troops unnecessarily is also seen as a court-martial offence by the Imperium, so wasteful commanders are sanctioned. I sometimes wonder how Chenkov has lasted so long, but I suppose his approaches must be seen to be necessary in the circumstances he fights in. I suppose there is also "success needs no explanation, failure allows none".

At least until the 6th edition Tempestus Scions codex came along and leant hard into grim-derp...

I’ve read all the Cain series so far; from my understanding he was a accidental hero, then became a real hero of the imperium. He would be a solid main character of any series, the blank sidekick helped a lot with his innate abilities.

No, but actually yes and no.

At first he kinda was, but he is a victim of his own success. So he has had to use his wits to cover his tracks, but in doing so he is actually acting as the hero everybody thinks he is.


I suppose the best definition of Cain is "Task Failed Successfully".

To be fair, he never actually claimed to be anything he wasn't. At worst, he lied by refusing to correct people's mistakes.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, but actually yes and no.

At first he kinda was, but he is a victim of his own success. So he has had to use his wits to cover his tracks, but in doing so he is actually acting as the hero everybody thinks he is.


I suppose the best definition of Cain is "Task Failed Successfully".

"fell upward"

He isn't really a fraud except in his own eyes. I see the purpose of the novels is to present a jovial tone to the misery of the Imperium, which accentuates the contrast of the dark "reality". His narrative voice is purposefully questionable and it is up to you as the reader to take that at a certain value. This only works because we as the reader already have a preconceived notion of Imperial Commissars but this turns that on its head. It then makes you question if any of the other Commissars are the same and have just played the "Fake it till you make it" game.

And that's why the books are genuinely a good read, keeps you guessing.

The attitude is of a confessional told just prior to his death. It's pretty clear that The Seventh Seal played a big part in the creation of the Cain series.

It is a common narrative theme to consider a hero's motives and whether they are truly a force for Good.

To answer the question "in-universe" as it were, as if you were one of those Inquisitors who had the clearance to read Amberley's books, consider it like this:

Throughout each tale you are led through Cain's actions and how they conclude. The conclusion is always positive for the Imperium. So regardless of how Cain sees himself, he is a hero.

What is a hero if not someone who inspires others?

I see Cain as Rincewind from "Discworld"- he's not always up for heroics, but it just ends up that in saving his own neck, he saves a lot more people. I think the series is more tongue in cheek than others, and it's good to see a bit of humor contrasting with the Grimdark (humor that isn't big and Orky, that is).
But again, I think it's more to show that despite the wide dichotomy of Chaos vs Order, there are shades of grey and those that manage the middle ground are a lot more effective than those who go to extreme. Using the DND Alignment chart, we see Cain is selfish, but not Cruel (Neutral) and will do as he's ordered, but find ways to skirt it (Also Neutral). This is still better than the CN rogue trader that maaaay be up to some Heresy or the LN Inquisitor whose strict dogma causes them to do things they see as right (even though they may be morally wrong).
Another way to see it is to ask "How many people REALLY are altruistic in 40K?". Most of the serfs, servitors and Guard don't get a choice in things, so they don't count. And most of the Ecclesiarchy are sadistic Lectitcio Divinatus-thumpers who get off on punishing others- And let's no get started on the higher ups of the Nobles and the like. So apart from St. Celestine and possibly Primarchs, few people have other's best interests at heart. The thing that is different about Cain is he's more open to the fact that his actions are to save HIS arse.

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
I see Cain as Rincewind from "Discworld"- he's not always up for heroics, but it just ends up that in saving his own neck, he saves a lot more people. I think the series is more tongue in cheek than others, and it's good to see a bit of humor contrasting with the Grimdark (humor that isn't big and Orky, that is).
But again, I think it's more to show that despite the wide dichotomy of Chaos vs Order, there are shades of grey and those that manage the middle ground are a lot more effective than those who go to extreme. Using the DND Alignment chart, we see Cain is selfish, but not Cruel (Neutral) and will do as he's ordered, but find ways to skirt it (Also Neutral). This is still better than the CN rogue trader that maaaay be up to some Heresy or the LN Inquisitor whose strict dogma causes them to do things they see as right (even though they may be morally wrong).
Another way to see it is to ask "How many people REALLY are altruistic in 40K?". Most of the serfs, servitors and Guard don't get a choice in things, so they don't count. And most of the Ecclesiarchy are sadistic Lectitcio Divinatus-thumpers who get off on punishing others- And let's no get started on the higher ups of the Nobles and the like. So apart from St. Celestine and possibly Primarchs, few people have other's best interests at heart. The thing that is different about Cain is he's more open to the fact that his actions are to save HIS arse.

Brilliant comparison.

Rincewind is a genuine coward though, and a pretty poor “Wizzard”.

Cain I think is more an original thinker. A very clever man, who is adept at finding easy and effective ways out of any pickle, which in his own mind he sees as the result of laziness and cowardice.

I wonder if despite his heroic actions, he’s comparing his own actions to “all guns blazing, take on the galaxy in just your skivvies” fictional heroes. Also known as Gung Ho Idiots Furnished With Plot Armour.

I think he wants to be a fraud (and at the start of his career kind of was), plus he has a good bit of impostor syndrome.

However somewhere along the way he’s ended up a genuine hero.

The amount of times he’s ended up immediately charging at the likes of daemon princes, ork warbosses, chaos warlords, Necron portals, etc. sure he rationalises it as ‘near certain death rather than certain death’ or ‘trapped by people’s expectations of him’ etc. But at the end of the day he always does it. Every book. He does seem to have a genuine instinct to be personally heroic, as much as he denies it.

What he’s not though is reckless with other people’s lives, which is quite a departure from most of the Imperium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Rincewind is a genuine coward though, and a pretty poor “Wizzard”.

Cain I think is more an original thinker. A very clever man, who is adept at finding easy and effective ways out of any pickle, which in his own mind he sees as the result of laziness and cowardice.

I wonder if despite his heroic actions, he’s comparing his own actions to “all guns blazing, take on the galaxy in just your skivvies” fictional heroes. Also known as Gung Ho Idiots Furnished With Plot Armour.

I think this is it tbh. Especially the last para. He mentions the propaganda commissars from the holos all the time, and is forever making snide references to Ibram Gaunt (of whom he’s probably only heard the peak propaganda version). Plus look at all the covers where he’s heroically posing with a bolt pistol that are implied to be versions of the propaganda he has to pose for in universe.

That’s what he feels he has to measure up to, not the truth of actually being pretty scared and just trying to survive, and so he downplays his many actual heroic achievements.

Is he a "fraud"? Depends on what you mean by that.

He's certainly not the hyper-competent, eager-for-a-fight type that the propaganda makes him out to be and that his reputation suggests he is, but he also doesn't generally claim to be (outside of letting *others* believe his hype if it means getting him a more comfortable assignment.

But he's also a perfectly competent commissar. Maybe moreso than most. For all his self-depracation and genuine attempts to lead from the rear as much as he can, he still acts to the benefit (not detriment) of the forces he commands and the imperium as a whole.

And this seems to largely stem from him being a rare case of someone who is both reasonable and in a position of power within the imperium. His reasonable approach to things means that morale is better, his troops live to become more experienced, and his tactics tend to be solution-oriented rather than rooted in zealotry or the pursuit of glory.

And also, despite his attempts to excuse his own bravery, he *is* brave on the battlefield. He willingly steps into dangerous situations where a genuine coward would have found an excuse not to.

tldr; he's a competent, reasonable, occasionally brave man whose success is largely the result of a mix of luck and a rational approach to things rarely seen in the imperium. He's not the hero everyone makes him out to be because that "hero" is a cartoon. But he also either gives himself too little credit or else hides what credit he does give himself behind piles of self-deprecation.

Wyldhunt wrote: He willingly steps into dangerous situations where a genuine coward would have found an excuse not to.

This is a good observation. And I’d add that, being a Commissar, situations where he’d be entirely within his rights to send others into, and then blame any resulting mess or cock up on said, almost certainly deceased, underlings.

Though his willingness is more “crap, I’m here, right now. And that has got to get sorted or we’re all dead, and I’ll be among them”

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Though his willingness is more “crap, I’m here, right now. And that has got to get sorted or we’re all dead, and I’ll be among them”

Sometimes that's the case, but other times it definitely reads (to me) more like he's he's downplaying his bravery in hindsight. I'm having trouble providing specific examples, but I definitely recall multiple situations where it would have been easy enough to just duck out of a room and send in the nearest randos he came across, but instead he ended up personally swinging his sword at something. I feel like a character that's more genuinely cowardly (and being played for that particular brand of laughs) would like, hit the deck or make "tactical withdrawals" while leaving others to buy him time or simply stay out of melee range while sending waves of dudes to die for him.

Cain isn't framed like that. When we laugh at someone thinking he's braver than he is, the humor is coming from the irony that we see him through his own, terrified perspective. We're not laughing *at* Cain being taken down a peg; we're laughing *with* him because of how our knowledge of his perspective recontextualizes the situation. When Cain is actually taking cover or assigning himself to a rear position, those decisions tend to actually make enough reasonable sense that we don't really hold them against him. Of course keeping your head down during a fire fight instead of charging in makes sense (even though he inevitably ends up charging in a fair bit anyway). Of course putting your leadership/beacon of positive morale away from the front lines where he'd die instantly makes sense. Compare that to any cowardly character who's written to be disliked or whose cowardice is genuinely intended to be the butt of the joke.

I think ultimately he is a sanitised flashman to be made more likeable as a lot of the abusive, criminal actions - sometimes sexual - I don't think would pass GWs editors and detracted from the intent. Which is readers laugh that he actually is the hero. He could have been written as far more evil - say pulling guardsmen in front of him to take bullets when no one is looking - but he doesn't do stuff like that.

unreliable narrator - he *does* do stuff like that, he just doesn't tell you about it

He reminds me a lot of Commander Madison from "The Americanization of Emily".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Americanization_of_Emily

He's a rake, a scoundrel, a devious back stabber, but above all, an extremely principled and intelligent coward. He's not afraid or possessing of fear, in the strictest sense, but in a moral sense, he believes in a "sense of cowardess" as a right way to live one's life. It's his motto, his calling card. If he can avoid work, kiss the girls, eat the best food, sleep on the best mattress, and avoid combat, he's all too happy. But he's also not devoid of introspection. He's self aware. And he doesn't care.

No and in fact, another interesting facet of the stories are how the guard are presented. One of the big parts of the narrative is that Cain talks of making sure he keeps the soldiers on side because he wants them to help him in a scrap, he relies on their professionalism and being hard as nails to keep him safe. He is presented as a hero among heroes, that it isn't him alone saving the universe, but all the other soldiers as well.

He mentions more than once that he is irritated by the fact that Jurgen isn't mentioned in his hero narrative, despite his powers saving the day.

I remember when the Flashman author was asked something similar and he simply replied "no, he's an awful man".

Given Cain is explicitly just Flashman in space I'd imagine the same, it's part of the joke after all.

chaos0xomega wrote:
unreliable narrator - he *does* do stuff like that, he just doesn't tell you about it

That is chilling...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dai wrote:
I remember when the Flashman author was asked something similar and he simply replied "no, he's an awful man".

Given Cain is explicitly just Flashman in space I'd imagine the same, it's part of the joke after all.

Well part of the thing of Flashman is there is a whole group of people in society who would see him in a very positive light. If the Boris Johnson types could get away with being honest you suspect their hero would be flashman not Churchill!

The_Real_Chris wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
unreliable narrator - he *does* do stuff like that, he just doesn't tell you about it

That is chilling...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dai wrote:
I remember when the Flashman author was asked something similar and he simply replied "no, he's an awful man".

Given Cain is explicitly just Flashman in space I'd imagine the same, it's part of the joke after all.

Well part of the thing of Flashman is there is a whole group of people in society who would see him in a very positive light. If the Boris Johnson types could get away with being honest you suspect their hero would be flashman not Churchill!

Very true!

First, I’m yet to read any Flashman. But given Vail has a genuinely positive impression of Cain, and often points out where he’s being overly modest, I’m not convinced he is just a reskinned Flashman.

Inspired by of course. Even the author has confirmed that. But there’s definitely genuine competence and ability with Cain.

You should read ol Flash Harry, it is fantastic and I think you'd get a real kick out of it!

I’ll stick it on my read list

Flashy's an excellent read, I'd highly recommend it - if you're unsure if you want to commit to the whole set (the first couple of books take a bit to settle into their stride), Flashman at the Charge is a perfect encapsulation of the series, and they're largely self-contained so there's little downside to reading out of order.

I wouldn't say Cain's anything like as awful as Flashman is though - they share the conceit of being the unwilling and accidental hero, and to a degree cowardice (though Cain's is far more understandable; even the worst battlefields and back alleys of the 19th Century never had Necrons and Hive Tyrants charging around the place), but where it's not difficult to see Cain as just a relatively ordinary (if resourceful and insightful) man who'd rather reach retirement age than go out in some blaze of glory, Flashy's a bully, an abuser, an absolutely craven coward, and excluding his wife and children could probably count on one hand the number of people he wouldn't abandon to their deaths without feeling the slightest bit of remorse. Cain's a fraud insofar as he's not the epic paladin everyone thinks he is, but Flashman's a fraud as a decent human being.

 Daia T'Nara wrote:
Flashy's an excellent read, I'd highly recommend it - if you're unsure if you want to commit to the whole set (the first couple of books take a bit to settle into their stride), Flashman at the Charge is a perfect encapsulation of the series, and they're largely self-contained so there's little downside to reading out of order.

I wouldn't say Cain's anything like as awful as Flashman is though - they share the conceit of being the unwilling and accidental hero, and to a degree cowardice (though Cain's is far more understandable; even the worst battlefields and back alleys of the 19th Century never had Necrons and Hive Tyrants charging around the place), but where it's not difficult to see Cain as just a relatively ordinary (if resourceful and insightful) man who'd rather reach retirement age than go out in some blaze of glory, Flashy's a bully, an abuser, an absolutely craven coward, and excluding his wife and children could probably count on one hand the number of people he wouldn't abandon to their deaths without feeling the slightest bit of remorse. Cain's a fraud insofar as he's not the epic paladin everyone thinks he is, but Flashman's a fraud as a decent human being.

Good analysis. I also think some younger teenagers parents could have an issue with their child reading about some of the vile stuff Flashman got up to.

There perhaps should be a "content warning": these books are not politically correct but should be remembered they were written decades ago about a time a century before that. And that ultimately they are usually criticising the brutality and hypocrisy of the time in a comic manner.

For all this talk of Cowardice, Cain has personally defeated in single combat tons of xenos, Traitor Marines, Heretic Champions, and even done some incredibly brave things, like shooting loyal soldiers he knew to be tainted. It takes a lot to kill a fellow, especially someone you know personally, and who is unarmed at the time. He doesn't hesitate. That takes STONES. Let's not look past willingly trading barbs with a champion of Slanesh on 3 separate occasions.

He's not a coward. If anything, he's more like John Rambo than Sly Marbo is. He's extremely talented killer, who has a REALLY bad case of PTSD, and just wants to be left alone. Sly Marbo goes looking for trouble.

Also worth keeping in mind these are from Cain’s memoirs, rather than being compiled from contemporary field reports.

And so Cain, being introspective to a degree, best remembers the terror he felt at the time. And for all we know, a forthcoming entry may reveal a much later event where his actions got a lot of good men and women killed, causing him to cast doubt on all his previous accomplishments as just being lucky?


That last bit is of course pure speculation, and Vail’s notes have never really hinted at such. Pretty sure we’re still to find out more about his experiences at the hands of Dark Eldar.