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With the use of programs such as Kazaa and other PtP file sharing networks, has there been a problem with rulebooks, codexes, or forgeworld books becoming availiable for download? This is illegal, according to GW copyright, but what is put in place to prevent this from happening?

The Honor System.

that was my first thought.

is this the same honor system that keeps so many people from burning cds and movies???

Yes. The same one that prevented VHS and Betamax copying.

In all my games I 've never seen a non legit codex. Anyone that pays for the minatures is already a sucker and will by the book. (including me)

In this case it's a bit more time consuming to do than something like a CD or a movie. With those, you spend a couple minutes setting the software up and it's basically an automated process.

To copy a book, you would have to scan or photograph each page individually to transfer them into an electronic format. You're looking at a few hours of work, per codex, to get it into digital. If you already have the codex most people aren't willing to do all the work to save other people a few bucks. Then, when you recieve it, you have to print out every page, and you'll end up with a codex that looks like crap and is easily damaged by moisture or just useage.

In this case, the genuine codex has far too many benefits over a ripoff copy, and people are willing to spend the money.

-Hans

The only gamers I know who download electronic copies and actually use them for anything download them to have a copy for reference on their work laptops so they don't have to carry the books into the office. They all own legit copies of the books and use the GW hardcopy versions for actual gaming.

Posted By Arioc on 07/16/2006 11:57 PM
The only gamers I know who download electronic copies and actually use them for anything download them to have a copy for reference on their work laptops so they don't have to carry the books into the office. They all own legit copies of the books and use the GW hardcopy versions for actual gaming.

 

Or you just make nice copies on one of the company copiers, but I've never heard of anyone doing that

"is this the same honor system that keeps so many people from burning cds and movies??? "

yep, that's the one!

See, I was trying to be funny.

I suppose I could've said: GW's Legal Team.

I have all the codecies on my Computer...and i only own the ones of the armies i actually play (Vampire, Skaven, Tyranids and Dark Elves(which i don't play,ok))
I use them to get to know more about the armies i play against and the overall fluff. Yeah, sure, some people might(and will) say that thats robbery and whatnot, but consider this for a moment:

I got into warhammer 40k because I've read all the codecies of 40k in digital form beforehand and after I decided to go tyranids, i baught around 1500 pts of them uptil now.
Would i have started them if i didn't know squad about them? especially because the shops around my area were substandard at that time? At the moment I plan to start an eldar army i pretty much build up in my head for about 3 years, so Gw is guaranteed to get some cash out of me.

So...maybe i'm an filthy thief because i downloaded all the codecies...but at least I'm staying in the hobby because of that. (And I'm not willing to stop after Eldar)
Go figure....

Greets
Schepp himself

The honor system?!?!?! people, this is the 21st century.


In the 2nd millenium there is only piracy.

I'm like Schepp.  I don't play marines, so I never bought the marine codex.  But I found the codex in a .pdf online, so I downloaded it, gave it a good readthrough, then deleted if off my machine.  I'd say it's exactly like showing up at a gaming store and actually sitting down and reading it.  No one wants to go to a tournament oblivious to all the other armies, and no one wants to shell out $200 to make sure of that.

- Oaka

I do. I'm not well though. You know, in the thinker.

3rd Millenium, right? You mean the Present, Digital piracy. Not the past, occular piracy.

My club has the "Digital tome of knowledge." We each buy our respective codexes for our armies, but they are scanned and kept on our laptops for ease of use. We also keep the rules, FAQ's, and expansions like Cities of Death.  We would never think to actually try to print the things out and give them to others. We do have scanned codexes of books and armies that we don't own, but we would never let a member collect an army without actualy owning the codex. We feel pretty much the same way as Schepp and Oaka.

Although, I'm sure what we're doing is illegal we don't feel any moral dilema over it. We would never circulate these files over the net, nor would we print them and sell them or give them to others. We already have the printed copy, so printing it from a PDF would be pretty redundant.

Posted By Oaka on 07/17/2006 3:09 PM

I'm like Schepp.  I don't play marines, so I never bought the marine codex.  But I found the codex in a .pdf online, so I downloaded it, gave it a good readthrough, then deleted if off my machine.  I'd say it's exactly like showing up at a gaming store and actually sitting down and reading it.  No one wants to go to a tournament oblivious to all the other armies, and no one wants to shell out $200 to make sure of that.

- Oaka

So, you're both williing to commit copyright infringement, but are willing to rationalize it away.

Posted By Janthkin on 07/18/2006 4:31 PM

Posted By Oaka on 07/17/2006 3:09 PM

I'm like Schepp.  I don't play marines, so I never bought the marine codex.  But I found the codex in a .pdf online, so I downloaded it, gave it a good readthrough, then deleted if off my machine.  I'd say it's exactly like showing up at a gaming store and actually sitting down and reading it.  No one wants to go to a tournament oblivious to all the other armies, and no one wants to shell out $200 to make sure of that.

- Oaka

So, you're both williing to commit copyright infringement, but are willing to rationalize it away.

Thats a little harsh.  I'd compare that to borrowing a copy of your friend's codex and reading through it.

Posted By jfrazell on 07/18/2006 4:35 PM

Thats a little harsh.  I'd compare that to borrowing a copy of your friend's codex and reading through it.

That, too, is a rationalization.  It's copyright infringement.

Borrowing a friend's copy, like borrowing a book from the library, is using up a single, legitimate copy of the book.  Reading through a pdf does not "consume" the original copy, i.e., does not prevent your friend from simultaneously enjoying the copy he purchased, nor does it affect the other (illegitimate) pdf copies floating around.

Eh, yeah. I agree with Schepp, Oaka, and now Frazell. Guess Janthkin never copied a VHS tape before.

*sigh*

Read a little more closely, please.

Library books (and video rental stores) are fine. They have discrete, licensed copies, each of which was paid for. (In the case of the video store, there's a different license involved, but that's not important to the discussion at hand.)

When you have a library book checked out, NO ONE ELSE can use the copy you have. The discrete, licensed copy is in your possession.

Contrast with a photocopied version of a book: the licensed copy is NOT in your possession, and someone else can use it, even while you're reading your photocopied version. Assuming just one photocopied version, you now have TWO physical copies, but only ONE of them is properly licensed.

Digital copies compound this issue (potentially infinite illegitimate copies, from a single legitimate original).

It's not me - it's copyright law, and in this particular example, there's no gray area. I, personally, don't care if you're using electronic copies, but let's at least be honest here - no rationalization you apply can turn an electronic or photocopied copy of a codex you don't own into a legitimate one.

(Side note: for books and movies you DO actually own legitimately, there are certain "fair use" rights which attach to ownership; photocopying a portion of the book, e.g., tables, for your own convenience is a non-issue.)

Edit: Hey, jf's post I was responding to is gone! 

Sorry I re-read your earlier post and pulled as you weren't actually talking about the library.

Now it looks like you're agreeing that  a personal copy is not an issue (ie I photocopy my own issue and retain it for personal use). 

I think we're also agreed that PDF sharing (assuming non-public as in the case of BFG) in the context of  spreading that around is also illegal.

However, I don't see the illegality of reviewing a friend's copy .  Its not illegal to let another person read your codex.  There may be a technical illegality in letting them review the pdf copy you've made of your own codex-but not retaining the copy (I concede i'm not especially versed in this area).  On a real world equitable basis however this screams grey area.  Frankly if GW bugged me due to that I'd be done with them in a heartbeat-thats just too screaminging overbearing.

Having said that I again agree completely that PDF sharing is illegal and should not be condoned. But I retain the right to copy or pdf my own pohysically owned codex for personal use.

 

 

How about this hypothetical situation: You are browing through Kazaa and find a PDF copy of an Imperial Armour book. This book has a retail value of over 100 dollars..

Do you:
A) Download the book.
B) Pretend like you never saw it??

Haha, trick question. It's obviously A then B.

1) I don't do kazaa

2) Don't download it.

Well, I do do kazaa (hehe do do), but it's mostly to download porn and spyware. I have downloaded a copy of the IG dex I saw there, but since I own the actual dex myself I saw no big deal with it. It just means that now I don't have to scan it myself.

I don't know how the fair use law comes into play here. I understand it for music and software, but I would actually assume that copying any GW books even for personal use is illegal. I'm only saying that because certain pages like in the back of the Tau dex say something like "You may copy this page for personal use" because it has the little markerlight icons we can all cut out and glue to our opponents vehicles. If they say it on that page but not the others I would assume that only that page may ever be copied. But, that's all just my feeble understanding of law and whatnot.

It's even more of a temptation with Imperial Armor books.  On the Kroot message boards I frequent, there are always lots of players who are considering picking up a single Kroot Great Knarloc but have no idea if the rules are any good for it, and the book with the rules in it costs more than the model!

Fortunately for them, I saved the experimental rules for all the Kroot units when Forgeworld had them on their website, and just email them to the potential Kroot players with my own personal comments to mention what they changed (I don't imagine that is copyright infringment, is it?).  But I can imagine a player who wants to use a single Leman Russ variant would be happy to look away for a second and get the rules they need rather than buying the hardcover book.

I think it's difficult to say what is acceptable and what isn't.  I've had a few opponents at tournaments give me army lists with all the special rules for their army and the units in their army.  If they didn't do this, I'd probably be shooting bolters at Dark Eldar grotesques in total ignorace or charging monoliths with strength 6 chainfists.  I think it's necessary to have copies of some aspects of each codex (summaries, for example), and you shouldn't be forced to pay for it when you aren't going to use the army list, as long as you actually own everything you need for your army. 

- Oaka

Posted By jfrazell on 07/19/2006 6:07 AM

Sorry I re-read your earlier post and pulled as you weren't actually talking about the library.

Now it looks like you're agreeing that  a personal copy is not an issue (ie I photocopy my own issue and retain it for personal use). 

I think we're also agreed that PDF sharing (assuming non-public as in the case of BFG) in the context of  spreading that around is also illegal.

However, I don't see the illegality of reviewing a friend's copy .  Its not illegal to let another person read your codex.  There may be a technical illegality in letting them review the pdf copy you've made of your own codex-but not retaining the copy (I concede i'm not especially versed in this area).  On a real world equitable basis however this screams grey area.  Frankly if GW bugged me due to that I'd be done with them in a heartbeat-thats just too screaminging overbearing.

Having said that I again agree completely that PDF sharing is illegal and should not be condoned. But I retain the right to copy or pdf my own pohysically owned codex for personal use.

 

All the words count - I wouldn't necessarily agree that you have a right to make a complete copy, even for your own use. 

"Fair use" is a delightfully slippery issue; most IP holders would have you believe you have NO rights to do anything with their intellectual property.  Take a look at http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html, if you're really curious.  Then, if you're insanely bored, try http://fairuse.stanford.edu/.  If you want more than that...go to law school. 

Short version of my point:
Making electronic copies of any of GW's books and distributing them online is copyright infringement, and you probably shouldn't do it.

Ah but court cases have indeed held that I have a right to make a copy, within limits, for my own personal use in areas such as music. I cannot then re-sell or distribute said copy.