Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

4M2A wrote:
If the IoM wanted a peaceful solution they could easily negotiate one. Entering the greater good doesn't really force them to do anything. All it means is that they become allies and trade between them is encouraged. There isn't a reason not to except that the IoM just want to kill all xenos.

Should you negotiate a peaceful solution with those who attack any planet left not-so-well-defended at all?
Actually the Tau try to benefit from the nids.
It will turn out bad for them. Simply no one likes backstabbers. When xenophobic Imperials participate in coalitions against the nids, Tau do not.
So Why ally with them? To save them, again?

Entering the greater good does force to pay a tithe. Entering the greater good does force to obey to the etherals.
And the IoM will not pay tribute nor will they swap their Emperor for some 'artificially created leaders' who no one knows who the entity behind them is.

The reason to kill all xenos is the experience at the age of strife. Plus the fact you can't live in peace with orks or nids. Maybe you're able to let the necrons sleep
and humbly accept the Eldars imagined superiority and do as they say. Then you just need to be wary of the dark Eldar.
Obviously the threat of chaos is a greater risk to humans and therefore a race-specific problem.

Maybe someday one of you americans can enlighten me why: one as big as the USA should join one as small as Swiss?

I think the better comparison would be to equate the IoM with Britain and the Tau with the fledgling United States, one is up-and-coming, while the other is in it's decline

OK, british empire and newlyfounded US.

How about a reasoning why the british empire should have joined the US at this point?





EDit: sorry fox gone mad.

Should you negotiate a peaceful solution with those who attack any planet left not-so-well-defended at all?

Wait what? What was the imperiums response when they first met the Tau (at this point the Tau race was just starting to form)? Oh IIRC they decided to exterminate them all.

Entering the greater good does force to pay a tithe. Entering the greater good does force to obey to the etherals.
And the IoM will not pay tribute nor will they swap their Emperor for some 'artificially created leaders' who no one knows who the entity behind them is.

No and No

Other races ares still entirely seperate. The Kroot are completely independant to the Tau society. They have their own planets and society. The Ethereals have no control over the kroot. The Tau themselves don't worship or pay tribute to ethereals so I don't think they would want anyone else to do that either. Ethereals are there to oversee the Tau empire they aren't worshiped. Tau will die for them, but only because they fear what will happen if the ethereals die out. You may expect humans to trick and manipulte you but Tau have a drastically different society to humans. Altruism and sacrifing yourself to improve others is a pretty big thing for them.

The reason to kill all xenos is the experience at the age of strife.

The Tau didn't exist at this point. Some xenos may be dangerous- doesn't mean they all are.

Plus the fact you can't live in peace with orks or nids

.
Something the Tau know, hence why they have a policy of destroying all orks they find. This doesn't really affect how the IoM could treat the Tau.

Maybe you're able to let the necrons sleep and humbly accept the Eldars imagined superiority and do as they say. Then you just need to be wary of the dark Eldar.

Not sure what this has to do with Tau.

Obviously the threat of chaos is a greater risk to humans and therefore a race-specific problem.

The Tau's beliefs are very similar to the imperial truth. Remove religion and superstition and replace it with understanding and reason. Judging by the big 4's reaction to the emperor you could assume this would have some serious bad effects on chaos.

Maybe someday one of you americans can enlighten me why: one as big as the USA should join one as small as Swiss?

The UK is a small country. This doesn't mean some of the larger dictatorship run countries couldn't learn something from us.

1hadhq wrote:

4M2A wrote:
If the IoM wanted a peaceful solution they could easily negotiate one. Entering the greater good doesn't really force them to do anything. All it means is that they become allies and trade between them is encouraged. There isn't a reason not to except that the IoM just want to kill all xenos.

Should you negotiate a peaceful solution with those who attack any planet left not-so-well-defended at all?
Actually the Tau try to benefit from the nids.
It will turn out bad for them. Simply no one likes backstabbers. When xenophobic Imperials participate in coalitions against the nids, Tau do not.
So Why ally with them? To save them, again?

Entering the greater good does force to pay a tithe. Entering the greater good does force to obey to the etherals.
And the IoM will not pay tribute nor will they swap their Emperor for some 'artificially created leaders' who no one knows who the entity behind them is.

The reason to kill all xenos is the experience at the age of strife. Plus the fact you can't live in peace with orks or nids. Maybe you're able to let the necrons sleep
and humbly accept the Eldars imagined superiority and do as they say. Then you just need to be wary of the dark Eldar.
Obviously the threat of chaos is a greater risk to humans and therefore a race-specific problem.

Maybe someday one of you americans can enlighten me why: one as big as the USA should join one as small as Swiss?

I wasn't going to respond to that because it was so ridiculus. It's like saying "Iceland has lower polution, better literacy rates and quality of life than the US so why doesn't the USA just join Iceland?" Except take that scenario and times its impracticalibily by 1 million. So x 1,000,000

Retribution wrote:I think the better comparison would be to equate the IoM with Britain and the Tau with the fledgling United States, one is up-and-coming, while the other is in it's decline

So...the Imperium rules the better part of the know galaxy (world) with a mighty fleet, but mostly through the underated power of trade. And Tau still practice slavery and extermination of lesser races. It all makes sense!

4M2A wrote:
What was the imperiums response when they first met the Tau (at this point the Tau race was just starting to form)? Oh IIRC they decided to exterminate them all.

It wasn't a Tau-specific action. A standard cleansing procedure , yes.
There is a difference how they treat what surveyors find, and the Tau were just primitives then. But still got some help ( warpstorms ) didn't they?

4M2A wrote:
No and No

Other races ares still entirely seperate. The Kroot are completely independant to the Tau society. They have their own planets and society. The Ethereals have no control over the kroot. The Tau themselves don't worship or pay tribute to ethereals so I don't think they would want anyone else to do that either. Ethereals are there to oversee the Tau empire they aren't worshiped. Tau will die for them, but only because they fear what will happen if the ethereals die out.

Youre telling me the tithe in codex tau-empires is a lie?
'Do these kroot not pay in soldiers? Is it no longer mandatory to contribute someting?
I don't see the population of a planet burdened by 2 tithes and not revolting.

If the etherals have no control over the allies of the empire, who has then?
The fire caste?

4M2A wrote:The Tau didn't exist at this point. Some xenos may be dangerous- doesn't mean they all are.

.

Humans did not start as xenophobic, as you could see in the HH series. But the lesson of the age of strife was learned well and I guess it will not go away
when multiple xenos try to ruin your home because they : want to eat you, want to kill you for fun, want to harvest you for their gods, want to torture you, ...
you know, most active major factions of non-humans are not possible friends.

4M2A wrote:Something the Tau know, hence why they have a policy of destroying all orks they find. This doesn't really affect how the IoM could treat the Tau.

Where both may agree upon orks, Tau seem to ignore the threat level of nids.
The IoM treats the Tau as major annoyance when fighting nids as Tau tend to attack imperial worlds instead of joining against nids. Thus Tau are siding with the hive mind ( unwillingly maybe ). Tau had necrons, IoM and DE intercept nids so when will they start to accept the fight against nids sould have priority?

4M2A wrote:The Tau's beliefs are very similar to the imperial truth. Remove religion and superstition and replace it with understanding and reason. Judging by the big 4's reaction to the emperor you could assume this would have some serious bad effects on chaos

Chaos feared the Emperor. They do not fear reason ( since chaos twists any logic ) and not understanding ( since chaos tells so many lies to drown the truth ).

4M2A wrote:
The UK is a small country. This doesn't mean some of the larger dictatorship run countries couldn't learn something from us.

Maybe the wording "british empire" should hint at the past? the time when the US was just some colonies leaving said empire?
It was aimed at the idea of a large state spread across the known "world" ( earth / 40k verse ) to join a small state on the edge of the known "world" ( earth / galactic east ). I am still interested why the IoM should consider to join a small empire in the path of the nid fleets?

The chances of an alliance are nil as the only one to decide such issue sits at Terra and may not grant an audience to the Tau....


@EF: correct as usual.

I would say Humans did start off as Xenophobic even in HH The Emperor promotes a strict kill-all-Aliens culture.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I would say Humans did start off as Xenophobic even in HH The Emperor promotes a strict kill-all-Aliens culture.

Dark Age of Technology describes trade and co-existence on a wide scale. Humanity was very similar to (even if not more advanced than) the Tau in this period. During that Age of Strife alien races quickly took advantage of the weakened and seperated human worlds/colonies. Most were either enslaved or largely exterminated.
An example would be the US being hit by several nuclear bombs, wiping out the better part of their major cities. Instead of helping them as required NATO(representing allied Alien races) invade and subjugate most of the weakened nation. Humanity, the Emperor included, has figured since then that the only people who will look out for them is going to be other humans (and even then it's meh). It doesn't take much to push that train of thought into outright Xenophobia.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I would say Humans did start off as Xenophobic even in HH The Emperor promotes a strict kill-all-Aliens culture.

Dark Age of Technology describes trade and co-existence on a wide scale. Humanity was very similar to (even if not more advanced than) the Tau in this period. During that Age of Strife alien races quickly took advantage of the weakened and seperated human worlds/colonies. Most were either enslaved or largely exterminated.
An example would be the US being hit by several nuclear bombs, wiping out the better part of their major cities. Instead of helping them as required NATO(representing allied Alien races) invade and subjugate most of the weakened nation. Humanity, the Emperor included, has figured since then that the only people who will look out for them is going to be other humans (and even then it's meh). It doesn't take much to push that train of thought into outright Xenophobia.

Yes, I agree. That's when Humanity was young and pie-eyed like the Tau are now. Can't help but feel something similiar is coming down the pipe for the Tau.

It wasn't a Tau-specific action. A standard cleansing procedure , yes.
There is a difference how they treat what surveyors find, and the Tau were just primitives then. But still got some help ( warpstorms ) didn't they?

So what if it's standard, it's the Tau's standard procedure to bring worlds into the greater good. Whether its targeted or a general response killing other races because they could be a threat is not good. Not sure what you mean about warpstorms.

Youre telling me the tithe in codex tau-empires is a lie?
'Do these kroot not pay in soldiers? Is it no longer mandatory to contribute someting?
I don't see the population of a planet burdened by 2 tithes and not revolting.

Each race contributes something in exchange for recieveing any thing that the greater good has. It's basically the same process that the IoM already uses. You give soldiers, you get advances in technology, protection and goods. The book is called Tau empire because it's got Tau units in it. Apart from a few kroot units everything is tau. If there were demiurg, kroot, nicassar it would be called codex greater good.

If the etherals have no control over the allies of the empire, who has then?
The fire caste?

No Tau do. They are allies not slaves. They are ruled by their own people and their cutlture is not combined with the Tau.

Humans did not start as xenophobic, as you could see in the HH series. But the lesson of the age of strife was learned well and I guess it will not go away
when multiple xenos try to ruin your home because they : want to eat you, want to kill you for fun, want to harvest you for their gods, want to torture you, ...
you know, most active major factions of non-humans are not possible friends.

If this was applied to human countries now it wouldn't be considered right. The Tau hadn't done anything with the intention of harming the IoM until they got attacked. Having a policy to destroy all members of a single races isn't good but is understandable. The Tau havde shown they aren't like the other races but the IoM is so obsessed with xenophobia that it won't stop. They use the fear of aliens to control people. If people realised that they weren't going to be destropyed by every xenos they wouln't rely on the imperium as much.

Where both may agree upon orks, Tau seem to ignore the threat level of nids.
The IoM treats the Tau as major annoyance when fighting nids as Tau tend to attack imperial worlds instead of joining against nids. Thus Tau are siding with the hive mind ( unwillingly maybe ). Tau had necrons, IoM and DE intercept nids so when will they start to accept the fight against nids sould have priority?

The Tau have had many battles with the nids. Not as many as the IoM but that is more due to size. Why would the Tau help the IoM fight the nids. The IoM expect help from a race they hate and regularly try to destroy.

Chaos feared the Emperor. They do not fear reason ( since chaos twists any logic ) and not understanding ( since chaos tells so many lies to drown the truth ).

Chaos feared the emperor because of his plan. What could the emperor himself do to hurt them. By estabilishing a empire set on reason and logic he could stop many people falling to chaos. Some still would but not as many.

Maybe the wording "british empire" should hint at the past? the time when the US was just some colonies leaving said empire?
It was aimed at the idea of a large state spread across the known "world" ( earth / 40k verse ) to join a small state on the edge of the known "world" ( earth / galactic east ). I am still interested why the IoM should consider to join a small empire in the path of the nid fleets?

I uderstand the example, I was giving another. Size doesn't matter because they don't join them physically. By Joining the Tau they could improve weapons (IG armed with Pulse weapons would be able to wipe out most threats), they would have support against the races that want to destroy everything, and they have less people to fight against.

Lets clear up something about the Damocles Gulf Crusade in which the Imperium is often portrayed as the bad guy. The Tau water caste sowed discontent upon a score of worlds causing them to defect from The IoM. Fun Tau Fact of the day: The Water Caste is the most succesful caste in history at conquering human worlds.
The Crusade was a military response to that meddling. So although those worlds left of their own volition which means the Tau are within their rights to annex them, the Imperium is also fully within its rights to reclaim its dissident territories just like that country to the south of me (US of something) and many before it like yours. There's no bad guy in that one just two competing interests.

The IoM actually joining into the Tau empire is ridiculous, the real point, however, is that in the foreseeable future...the IoM will not be the galaxy spanning power-house.

The planets tau find are backwaters with few ties to the imperium. Tau are closer to home and open to trade their technology, so joining makes much more sense to these individual worlds.

4M2A wrote:
So what if it's standard, it's the Tau's standard procedure to bring worlds into the greater good. Whether its targeted or a general response killing other races because they could be a threat is not good. Not sure what you mean about warpstorms.

Nobody claims it a good thing to exterminate, it is too often neccessary in 40k as this is a "eternal war" setting.
The search and mark for clenasing procedure is also mentioned in the Tau fluff, not general IoM fluff, thus it was made for the background story of the Tau's
survival as a primitive culture before they had some help from a unknown source which hid the Tau in a warpstorm.
As Tau are not a psychic race, I think this warpstorm could be artificial.

4M2A wrote:Each race contributes something in exchange for recieveing any thing that the greater good has. It's basically the same process that the IoM already uses. You give soldiers, you get advances in technology, protection and goods. The book is called Tau empire because it's got Tau units in it. Apart from a few kroot units everything is tau. If there were demiurg, kroot, nicassar it would be called codex greater good.


They are allies not slaves. They are ruled by their own people and their culture is not combined with the Tau.

Isn't it a Empire codex since Kroot are part of the Empire?
You know, the organization of the greater good isn't called "greater good inc" or "greater good alliance". Thought it was obvious the whole group of
followers of the greater good is part of the empire since they ask to JOIN. When Tau were nearly alone in their codex, it was called differently than "empire"

To compare the tithe the IoM collects and the tithe the Tau Empire collects could lead to a question of hierarchy in the respective organizations.
The IoM consists of multiple smaller units, and as a rule of thumb the tithe is the contribution to the whole Imperium and all its facets but the locals still have to
pay local taxes and got local dutys.
So these allies contribute to the Empire and still support their own leaders.
The IoM has local/regional leaders, but can handle things also directly ordered by the Emperor/High Lords.
So why do you claim the Tau empire has no control? I would not assume they care for everything ( like the EU ), but at least set a general course.

4M2A wrote:
If this was applied to human countries now it wouldn't be considered right. The Tau hadn't done anything with the intention of harming the IoM until they got attacked. Having a policy to destroy all members of a single races isn't good but is understandable. The Tau have shown they aren't like the other races but the IoM is so obsessed with xenophobia that it won't stop. They use the fear of aliens to control people. If people realised that they weren't going to be destroyed by every xenos they wouldn't rely on the imperium as much.

yes the IoM has a reputation they never give up. So prepare to be drowned in guardsmen....

The issue I think is there:
- the Tau could be forgotten and live on without the IoM caring, but they like to remind the IoM they are still there and therefore someone somehow cares
and the conflict goes on. Remember the Administratum is able to loose more data daily than a minor race could produce in its whole history.

Your point of people relying on the IoM because they fear the alien is partially true.
Some xenos ( nids, orks, ...) should be feared. But there is the threat of the ruinous powers too. Its unimportant to Tau, maybe, but humans and their
noticable amount of psykers have to rely on the emperor to keep chaos at bay. Never forget Tau have a comfortable situation of just one enemy showing up
at once. The IoM has to deal with all possible threats each day.

4M2A wrote:
The Tau have had many battles with the nids. Not as many as the IoM but that is more due to size. Why would the Tau help the IoM fight the nids. The IoM expect help from a race they hate and regularly try to destroy.

The Tau should learn to support without any chance to sway the supported to their ways.
The IoM does not need the Tau, but Tau need the other major factions. Because, nids were proven to suffer against certain combos and Tau can't form one of them alone. So either temporarly cooperate or be nid food. The IoM already found other races to support anti-nid campaigns ( codex nids ).

4M2A wrote:
Chaos feared the emperor because of his plan. What could the emperor himself do to hurt them. By estabilishing a empire set on reason and logic he could stop many people falling to chaos. Some still would but not as many.

The Emperor? He got them to retreat instead of facing off in a direct one on four battle. Since the chaos "gods" need to flee to survive, I will assume the
Emperor would have seriously hurt them.

4M2A wrote:
I understand the example, I was giving another. Size doesn't matter because they don't join them physically. By Joining the Tau they could improve weapons (IG armed with Pulse weapons would be able to wipe out most threats), they would have support against the races that want to destroy everything, and they have less people to fight against.

So why did you give another? Disliked the given one?

I doubt Tau would improve the imperial weapons. The IoM had a different approach on tech and despises AI's.
IoM relys upon laser and artillery, there is no interest from Tau in such things.
The IoM is able to supply galaxy wide wars, and campaigns can go on for centurys. The support the Tau could give would not have any impact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Retribution wrote:The IoM actually joining into the Tau empire is ridiculous, the real point, however, is that in the foreseeable future...the IoM will not be the galaxy spanning power-house.

How so?

GW painted themselves into a corner with "end times".
Because "end times" = end of mankind.
So we got this stasis field containing M41...

Mr Nobody wrote:The planets tau find are backwaters with few ties to the imperium. Tau are closer to home and open to trade their technology, so joining makes much more sense to these individual worlds.

Perhaps, butI think you'll find it makes less sense to the Imperium of Man.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:The planets tau find are backwaters with few ties to the imperium. Tau are closer to home and open to trade their technology, so joining makes much more sense to these individual worlds.

Perhaps, butI think you'll find it makes less sense to the Imperium of Man.

+1 and why would human want to allie with cattle, when we they can just BBQ them, like the IoM was planning to do.

The thread is now completely off topic, so I'll lock it.