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KOBossy wrote:I was thinking of taking Meltaguns on my Infantry squads. Do you think Autocannons or a Heavy Bolter would be better?
I was also thinking of putting 3 Flamers in my SWS. What's the consensus on that idea? Or is it better served with Sniper Rifles, or just add in another Infantry Squad which is also 50 pts?

I like autocannons in mass, so you can get the re-rolls on a bring it down and have a chance at dropping flyers.
3 Flamers in a SWS is underwhelming. 2 flamers and a demo charge is a threat.
3 snipers in a SWS doesn't make much sense. 50 points for a scoring unit that's going to hide and take 3 pot shots. You're far better off spending 10 points more, and taking 3 mortars to do the same job.
BS3 hurts snipers a lot more than mortars.
50 points for 3 sniper shots (at BS3), might be the least effective shooting you can buy. Point for point, ratlings put out more than twice the hitting power.

If you want cheap SWS, go 2 flamers and a meltagun. Spam that, and your opponent always has to watch out for the golden bb.

-Matt

So, just had a really wierd "Ah HAH!" moment. Everyone talks about heavy bolters and grenade launchers being useless, well, I may have figured out a decent way to take them. An armored fist squad with GL/heavy bolter in a chimera with a Multilaser/ heavy bolter. Thats 4 S6 shots and 6 s5 shots on an Av 12 platform thats carrying a scoring unit. you can even add a stubber for 10 points and get even more dakka. Is it highly specialized to killing infantry? absolutely! but ina list that lacks antihorde and has tons of anti armor already (say, a heavy weapon spam list, or even a leafblower or flier spam list with drop droops) itwcould make for a surpisingly killy light armor/infantry killer. Probably would rather run plasma/autocannon in most situations, but its deffinitely not a bad setup if you made a list with a few of these in mind. Man, now I want to try these too. curse you KObossy for making me reevaluate what i thought were crap units and finding interesting uses for them!

The Grenade Launcher is the least critical part of that combo, and provides the least anti-infantry firepower of the group. It's a one shot special weapon in a combined unit with 12 other heavy weapon shots. I've always liked the grenade launcher. It's sort of a trademark Guard weapon. It's never been very good, though, and it got worse with 6th. It's strength used to be range while moving. Now plasmas get the same range on the move, but their damage matters. Now launchers only have their cheap price going for them, which means their only useful in units where there is a low unit cost overhead so their cheap price isn't diluted by the cost of the unit. That basically means Special Weapon Squads and Platoon Command Squads. I've used a PCS in a Chimera for 7 S6 shots on the move (full BS) a number of times. I've never used them in special weapon squads, but I've never been so short of mid-strength shots that I've felt I needed to buy another unit just to field them.

Until they give Grenade Launchers some new abilities (no time soon, as they had a chance in 6th and didn't) they really won't be worth paying for. The only way I could see seriously fielding them is if they were a free special weapon for the Guard, like 50 points buys you a Squad, a Sergeant, and a Grenade Launcher. Even then, I'm not sold.

MrMoustaffa wrote:An armored fist squad with GL/heavy bolter in a chimera with a Multilaser/ heavy bolter. Thats 4 S6 shots and 6 s5 shots on an Av 12 platform thats carrying a scoring unit. you can even add a stubber for 10 points and get even more dakka.

Inc. heavy stubber that comes to 130

I would rather have Infantry Squad, autocannon, melta, Chimera, ML/HB which comes to 125, can threaten a much greater range of targets and is cheaper. S8/S7/S6/S5/S3 all present. You could even swap the melta for plasma and it be the same cost, if you haven't got AP2 elsewhere in your list.

I just don't think heavy bolters have any use in our army, other than on tank sponsons or the occasional hull mount. At the same price, the autocannon is a better bet 99.9% of the time. If heavy bolters were 5pts less, or free, then i'd at least consider them before getting autocannons.

Well the point of that was to get a lot of mid strength shots (which for some reason i thought was extremely important at 2am) You're never really "wasting" shots like you would on the melta, autocannon, with ml/hb chimera. What I mean by that is, those weapons are all made for different targets. Melta is a defensive weapon, so it gets a free bye, but the other three dont mesh as well. You're either using perfectly good bolter shots on a transport that it can barely hurt (if at all) or using up good autocannon shots on hordes. The bolterboat chimera loadout I posted would have a specific role in mind, putting out a good amount of mid strength shot at range to kill infantry. If I've already got a gakton of antitank elsewhere in my list, why would I use more with the anti infantry units when i need anti horde?

Admittedly, PCS's would perform this role even better for cheaper in hindsight (pcs with x2 gl, heavy bloter, and ml/hb would come out to 105pts) but my point stands. If you had a need for anti infantry, it wouldnt be a bad choice. I would only use the set up in a few situations though.

One thing I was testing with that heavy weapon spam list last night was making every shot "count" so to speak. I'm sick of having platoons just sit there firing auto or lascannons at a tank while the lasgun guys sit around. So I decided to take weapons that would mesh in each unit. Anti infantry with anti infantry, anti tank with anit tank, and so on. I haven't tested it yet, but if any army can afford to specialize units to a degree, it's guard. hence the bolter GL/ Multilaser combo. it will always fire at full affect against anything but av 12 and if a target is between 24" and 36", where you lose the gL. Another example people might be more used to is plasma autocannon chimeras (tons of S6 and S7) or Plasma lascannon (high strength AP2) Hence my reasoning. I'm to streamline my guard army a bit more, and I think this migt be one way of doing it. Instead of trying to have several with the same basic loadout, some will be plasma autocannon vetsquads, some will be bolter boat PCS's, some might be melta lascanon, etc.

I used to do just that in 4th ed. Chimera with 2x HB, stubber, squad with grenade launcher and HB. Put out a lot of shots.

I probably wouldn't take this anymore, though. 5th edition irreperably changed how many mech armies you see, and 6th only further encouraged this type of list. A super machine gun pillbox just doesn't make sense anymore.

Were I to do this now, I'd give that PIS a plasma gun and an autocannon on a ML/HB chimera. 130 points is some big spending, but it's 4 S7 shots, 3 S6 shots, and 3 S5 shots. That's still a lot of shots and (minus the stubber, it's the same as a HB+GL combo), more importantly, will actually be able to glance vehicles to death, while also giving you a little Ap2 just in case.

The problem with this, though is in the codex. For only 20 points more, I get an exterminator which throws down 50% more S7 hits on average for only missing a heavy bolter. It loses scoring, but gains AV14, which is huge. As such, I think I'd only take a couple of these squads, rather than stepping too hard on the toes of HS slots.

Of course, a list that started with..

CCS, power axe, 4x plasma, chimera

PCS, 2x plasma, autocannon, chimera
PIS, plasma, autocannon, chimera
PIS, plasma, autocannon, chimera

PCS, 2x plasma, autocannon, chimera
PIS, plasma, autocannon, chimera
PIS, plasma, autocannon, chimera

Exterminator, HLC, SHBs
Exterminator, HLC, SHBs
Exterminator, HLC, SHBs

Would be a pretty mean 1500 point list. The sheer volume of fire, much of it S7 and just enough of it Ap2 would make things pretty difficult for pretty much any target type other than AV14.

Ailaros wrote: words words words

Exactly. It was more of a niche unit for my heavy weapon list, which needed a bit more anti infantry and scoring units. Outside of situations like that though, I'd be running autocannons and plasma instead.

And to be honest, the only reason I looked at the heavy bolter at first was because I literally ran out of autocannon models that I could field, so I had to find something else to buy with 10pts

I've been thinking about infantry heavy weapons recently, and the suggested list Ailaros put up makes a nice segue. I'm personally a big fan of the Exterminator because it just doesn't care about enemy squad formations and it chews up light armor. When I bring two I'm not really hurting for mid strength shots, especially if I've got a couple Chimeras with their turret multilaser in play. This makes ACs not a high priority for my foot squads. Sure, it's a great gun, but are there things I'd rather have? I don't like widespread lascannons in foot squads, because they're too single-role, and heavy bolters are just not that good. So I started thinking about missile launchers, which I haven't used for quite a while. A few changes in 6th have made me regard them a little higher.

1.) Cover: It will be a lot easier to kill MEQs with a missile launcher since you can focus fire. If the enemy unit is packed into cover, you can just go for a lot of hits with the blast template.

2.) Vehicle damage rules: Against AV 13, the ML and AC have equal chances to drop a hull point, and the ML also has a chance at a penetrating hit. Against AV12, the AC has a 33% increased chance to drop a hull point, but the ML has equal chances to score a penetrating hit.

3.) Hordes: MLs should clean up. ACs will be spitting in the wind.

Basically in 3rd and much of 4th, the ML was a good anti-infantry weapon (anti-MEQ w/ krak rockets, and GEQ with blast) that also had some anti-vehicle utility. 5th took that away with cover and tougher vehicles, I think they might be back in business with 6th.

Still not understanding why HBs aren't that great. 3 Str 5 AP 4 shots is awesome, if you're going anti horde like against Orks, you want the extra shots. Autocannons I agree are better in general just because you lose 1 shot in exchange for the ability to make transports and light vehicles cower in fear (and possibly even insta-kill low toughness troops). However, for facing infantry heavy armies HBs are a great option, I think. People are raving over how important the second shot a PG offers within 12" is, I'm surprised they're not also advocating the benefits the HB provides.

KOBossy wrote:Still not understanding why HBs aren't that great. 3 Str 5 AP 4 shots is awesome, if you're going anti horde like against Orks, you want the extra shots. Autocannons I agree are better in general just because you lose 1 shot in exchange for the ability to make transports and light vehicles cower in fear (and possibly even insta-kill low toughness troops). However, for facing infantry heavy armies HBs are a great option, I think. People are raving over how important the second shot a PG offers within 12" is, I'm surprised they're not also advocating the benefits the HB provides.

The reason why we love plasma guns and not heavy bolters is a question of what roles it provides. IG has so many things can take hull mounted bolters that that eliminates some of the demand right of the bat. The other problem is that so many things in our codex annihilate infantry already. We don't really need to specifically buy anti infantry weapons like heavy bolters when we have things that do the job so much better (russes of various flavors, artillery, heck even plain old platoons can do the job.) They're just not necessarily the main thing we need to spend points on to compete. If you want to see why, take a few sometime, and then the next game, take anything else to fill the role they filled. Russes, artillery, whatever. You'll wonder why you wanted them in the first place. They're just not flexible enough, or important enough, to see use outside of a few rare situations.

Plasma guns are getting all the love right now because.

1.) They're AP2. We don't really have much that can kill a terminator in close combat, so we rely on shooting to kill them. With the change in power weapons this edition, more people will be taking termies. With plasmas, we could care less. In fact, it'll probably be a good thing, as it lets us have even better numbers over our opponent and truly superior firepower to what any terminator can dish out point for point. Ap 2 also gives us +1 on the damage chart, so we have a 1 in 3 of exploding the vehicle on a pen.

2.) They're S7, which means they wound most things on 2's, can put a real hurt on MC's and heroes, and lets them hunt light armor. With glances, they have a real chance of glancing something to death. And in a game that's as full of flyers and transports as 6th is, that's a big deal.

3.) Best special weapon in regards to range. Yeah, sniper rifles have better range, and GL's have equal range, but they are in no way equal to a plasma gun (even if you took 15pts worth of snipers or GL's for the comparison) Being able to move 6" and fire up to 24" is a big deal, and gives them a much large threat range than 5th.

4.)They also maximize the effectiveness of each slot, which is extremely important. 3 plasmas will always out damage 3 grenade launchers for example, and both would take all of a vet squads special weapon slots. If you've only got a limited number of vets, you need to make every slot count.

That's just some of the reasons, there are many more, but those are the main ones. Seriously, give plasma a try sometime, you'll learn why we love it so much. And don't just take 2 or 3. Take like 12, proxy it if you have to, and you'll see why plasma guns go for $5 apiece on bits sites

All those reasons are important, but I agree that this is the most important one:

MrMoustaffa wrote:They also maximize the effectiveness of each slot, which is extremely important. 3 plasmas will always out damage 3 grenade launchers for example

... which is why you don't see a lot of heavy bolters. In a world where you get a ton of small arms or free heavy bolters that already shred infantry, taking a heavy bolter as an upgrade doesn't make a lot of sense. An autocannon or lascannon will always do more damage to targets that you're not already decent against.

More importantly, an autocannon, while not being a serious anti-horde weapon, isn't exactly a non-anti-horde weapon either. It being a mediocre anti-horde weapon dovetails nicely with the already substantial load of anti-horde weapons you already have. The only reason I wouldn't suggest it in 6th as full-heartedly as I decried it in 5th is because AV14 got better, and there is a lot more AV13 around than there used to be, which means that you also really need lascannons.

Thanks very much for the list of pros, Moustaffa, and for your clarifications, Ailaros. You guys have convinced me-I'm gonna rework my current list so that I can fit in a bunch of Plasma Guns and I'll see how it works out.

You've also made some good points about Heavy Bolters. I already have HB sponsons on both Demolishers I'm including, and my Valkyrie, so I'm thinking its best to put ACs on my Veteran Weapons Teams (2 Vet Squads with 1 Heavy Weapon Team in each) and on my regular HWSs. While you don't get the extra shot, the ability to possibly insta-kill low Toughness units, only needing low rolls to hit and being able to much more reliably glance and penetrate lower armor really is the better choice. And its not like ACs only dish out 1 shot, each gets 2.

On the whole Lascannon-Autocannon debate, I favour using Autocannons in normal IG squads that, for the most part, will be shooting up infantry targets anyway.

I also agree that the balance has shifted in favour of Lascannons over Autocannons in Heavuy Weapon Squads. Now that transports are so much more vulnerable to glancing, lots of autocannons aren't as essential as they used to be. Likewise, in 6th ed heavy armour became fare tougher. Which is why my Heavy Weapon's Squads are loaded out with Lascannon.