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 Yonan wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Enforcing purchase of the new 'dex on players when it's basically GK 5.1 lite only rewards GWs bad business practices. When GW pulls stunts like this - cutting 15 of the 38 units form a codex and selling them separately, then selling the new book at a higher price still - you really should push back imo.

The way to fight against GW's business practices is to stop buying their products.

I quit when 7th edition was announced, along with about half the players at my FLGS. We now have 2nd edition nights and 4th edition nights for people who still want to play, and the FLGS is now selling other games which people are starting to get into.

I'm just going to call you a liar on this. I doubt half. Unless you play in Piedmont ND and both you and the other dude quit. So I'm going to ask you to prove it. Prove half. I read this crap all the.time. Half this, no one this, its over that, yet I have zero issue getting games. Maybe your just a jerk and people hate you. Just throwing out ideas. I mean if we are making crap up I might as well to.

Yeah, you *do* read that a lot, meaning a lot of people are saying it. Coincidentally GW is selling a lot less, but that's probably entirely unrelated hey?

No you're right the sales were down 10%. I'm no mathematician but that's not 50% right?

Why would you say the new codex is a train wreck? It isn't even out and the released rules get the points about right.

 PhillyT wrote:
Why would you say the new codex is a train wreck? It isn't even out and the released rules get the points about right.

This is Dakka, where the sky is always falling and everything GW does sux...

 PhillyT wrote:
Why would you say the new codex is a train wreck? It isn't even out and the released rules get the points about right.

Because 90% of the codex's pages were leaked in the GK rumors thread in HD quality and so far confirmed ALL the rumors. The admins have removed them now

Trainwreck because there is only 1 effective monobuild now, and that is taking libbies and dreadknights and normal gk termies.

Craploads of options went the way of the dodo, and many units that used to be semi-good like PAGKs, purgators, interceptors etc. got hit with the nerfbat

Hell, theres no point in nemesis swords anymore either. And cc-upgrades for the DK are so cheap now that you'd be a fool to not auto-include them.

 PhillyT wrote:
Why would you say the new codex is a train wreck? It isn't even out and the released rules get the points about right.

For some, myself included, is more the fact there is an update. The old codex still works fine, and didn't need to be redone. The fact they've actually removed 6 units and added a total of 0 new ones is frankly insulting, the fact people are buying it without complaint objectively paying more for less, is baffling.

Surely there has to come a time where we as the customer tells GW 'enough', and that we're not going to blindly buy whatever they spew out.

 Paradigm wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Why would you say the new codex is a train wreck? It isn't even out and the released rules get the points about right.

For some, myself included, is more the fact there is an update. The old codex still works fine, and didn't need to be redone. The fact they've actually removed 6 units and added a total of 0 new ones is frankly insulting, the fact people are buying it without complaint objectively paying more for less, is baffling.

Surely there has to come a time where we as the customer tells GW 'enough', and that we're not going to blindly buy whatever they spew out.

They even removed things that GK has always had like psybolts! I mean jeeze.

 Yonan wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Enforcing purchase of the new 'dex on players when it's basically GK 5.1 lite only rewards GWs bad business practices. When GW pulls stunts like this - cutting 15 of the 38 units form a codex and selling them separately, then selling the new book at a higher price still - you really should push back imo.

The way to fight against GW's business practices is to stop buying their products.

I quit when 7th edition was announced, along with about half the players at my FLGS. We now have 2nd edition nights and 4th edition nights for people who still want to play, and the FLGS is now selling other games which people are starting to get into.

I'm just going to call you a liar on this. I doubt half. Unless you play in Piedmont ND and both you and the other dude quit. So I'm going to ask you to prove it. Prove half. I read this crap all the.time. Half this, no one this, its over that, yet I have zero issue getting games. Maybe your just a jerk and people hate you. Just throwing out ideas. I mean if we are making crap up I might as well to.

Yeah, you *do* read that a lot, meaning a lot of people are saying it. Coincidentally GW is selling a lot less, but that's probably entirely unrelated hey?

You also read from some posters about how they are quitting GW, selling all their stuff, and never looking back....but 3 days later those same people are posting about adding units to the very same army they claimed they were selling, posting about their game a day before, and generally acting as if they never said they were quitting, selling all their stuff, and never looking back. Just because somebody posts something on a internet forum doesn't make it so.

Sales figures are not the perfect representation of player population you make it out to be. I am still a very active player, and the only thing I've bought new in the last 6 months or so was the 7th edition rules and Maelstrom cards. A year prior to that, I bought exactly 4 new boxes of models, everything else was 2nd hand. I don't buy a lot because my two armies are large enough for multiple builds at 1850 points. I dare say I'm not helping their sales figures at all, but I'm still an active player, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Heck, the Eldar player in my group has only bought a new codex and two new model kits in the past 2 1/2 years. The 2nd hand market is the primary reason their sales figures are down 10% or so, not the rage quitters. If anything, rage quitters probably add to the sales figures (at least the ones I know did), because they sell everything, and then 3 months later they want back in and end up buying a bunch of new stuff. Its rather comical. I've seen quitters sell off one army, then buy another one almost 100% new, then sell part of the new army so they could buy back the original army they quit on.

I think there was an objective to make gear that is uniform throughout the Imperium uniform through the Imperium. For example Space Wolves Terminator Armour now has the normal, standard ruleset instead of eschewing Deep Strike for the ability to take drop pods. Likewise they have the same basic stats for common vehicles with the Marines now (as do the Grey Knights) and their Dreadnoughts don't get the SW's special rules.

So no more giving the GK Autocannons, Bolters and Flamers +1.

I expect we'll see the Inquisitional versions of Chimera, Rhino, Razorback, Land Raiders and Storm Ravens revised to standard AM and SM models soon. Blood Angels will probably see standard rules on the Storm Raven too.

However, the unique (and separately paid for) gear will still be around to keep the armies from getting too close together.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Sales figures are not the perfect representation of player population you make it out to be

What they are, is a perfect representation of player purchases. Your anecdotes are 100% irrelevant - what's relevant is consecutive years of falling sales. Static revenue combined with large prices rises each year = less sales. One veteran player may not be buying much but in the past this was made up by new players joining the hobby or another veteran starting a new army. That's not happening now, sales are just falling noticeably - at a time where other gaming companies are posting 25% annual growth - without huge price rises so it's all extra sales. So yes, when people say they're leaving, a lot of people really *are* leaving GW to play these other games.

 Yonan wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Sales figures are not the perfect representation of player population you make it out to be

What they are, is a perfect representation of player purchases. Your anecdotes are 100% irrelevant - what's relevant is consecutive years of falling sales. Static revenue combined with large prices rises each year = less sales. One veteran player may not be buying much but in the past this was made up by new players joining the hobby or another veteran starting a new army. That's not happening now, sales are just falling noticeably - at a time where other gaming companies are posting 25% annual growth - without huge price rises so it's all extra sales. So yes, when people say they're leaving, a lot of people really *are* leaving GW to play these other games.

So to you, sales are declining mainly due to lack of new players (due to entry level cost) and old players leaving. That idea itself is purely anecdotal because there is no proven market study that actually states this is really happening in significant numbers, just internet speculation on anonymous forums. Just because other game companies are seeing growth doesn't prove anything either, all that proves is there are new games being released by these companies, or the games they sell are still fairly new and popular. Short term growth means nothing in the grand scheme of things. For example, of course a company like FFG is seeing major sales growth right now, they just released X-Wing not that long ago, so people are still entering that particular market, and really, anything Star Wars related is practically a license to print money in the short term (at least in the US). Lets check those same figures 10-15 years down the road when market saturation has set in if you want to make any kind of accurate comparison to GW.

I take it from your post that you don't feel that the 2nd hand market is the driving force behind declining sales. Even though the rise in the 2nd hand market coincides rather nicely with the dip in sales. IMO, GW's biggest failing is not producing/supporting games outside of 40K, WHFB, and The Hobbit. Their narrow focus for such a large company is killing any hopes for real growth, and I can't help but think they are really missing out by not continuing support for older "specialist" games such as Blood Bowl, Mordheim, and Necromunda, or introducing new games. While those games wouldn't generate the long term sales that 40K (and to a lesser extent WHFB) does, they also don't require a great deal of overhead to support, and provide a great "introduction" to the Warhammer world. Does anybody truly believe a revised version of BB or Necromunda wouldn't sell like crazy, or even a Space Marine version of Necromunda? Even all the GW haters would probably line up for a true skirmish level big box game focused on the Deathwatch, especially if it used the same scale of minis.

Who knows, maybe with a new CEO next year, GW will go back to being a "game company" instead of a "model company".

 Yonan wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Sales figures are not the perfect representation of player population you make it out to be

What they are, is a perfect representation of player purchases. Your anecdotes are 100% irrelevant - what's relevant is consecutive years of falling sales. Static revenue combined with large prices rises each year = less sales. One veteran player may not be buying much but in the past this was made up by new players joining the hobby or another veteran starting a new army. That's not happening now, sales are just falling noticeably - at a time where other gaming companies are posting 25% annual growth - without huge price rises so it's all extra sales. So yes, when people say they're leaving, a lot of people really *are* leaving GW to play these other games.

You should find out what the word consecutive means. I think you should make better arguments if you did.
2012-2013 sales gain. Small but still a increase.
2013-2014 sales lose well documented.
That's not consecutive partner.

I'm not getting into this again, it's been done to death in relevant topics.

 lobbywatson wrote:
You should find out what the word consecutive means. I think you should make better arguments if you did.
2012-2013 sales gain. Small but still a increase.
2013-2014 sales lose well documented.
That's not consecutive partner.

You should read what I wrote - static revenue with increased prices equals less sales. I thought it obvious but I could rephrase if you like - static revenue with increased prices equals the sale of fewer units. When priced go up 25% and revenue remains the same, the number of products sold has decreased by the same proportion. Less products sold = less players. Which yes, has happened each year for a while now, partner.

I've always been a pure GK player, from 3rd to present. The new GK codex was written for players like me, so I approve, despite losing Mordrak and his Ghost Knight.

SJ

 Paradigm wrote:

But why should we stop playing when we have a perfectly functional set of rules. If someone chooses to enjoy themselves without spending the money on a new codex, can you really hold they against them? You say your store plays other editions, and I don't really see how using an older GK dex (which is still compatible, and is current until Saturday so clearly works) is any different? If it were not being updated, you'd have no issue with it, nothing's going to change about the old book you've been perfectly for happy playing against.

As to those saying it's hard to keep track of what your facing, that's your opponent's responsibility, not yours. Seeing as it's your right to question anything at any time, no problem should arise. Not to mention you've been playing against the old dex for three years, that knowledge isn't going away just because a new book comes out.

Well, what I was saying is stop playing if you want to protest their business practices. That's the logical and rational approach to dealing with a commercial entity you don't agree with. They either respect you as a consumer or you should walk away, there's no dignity in being slavishly devoted to a product made by people who want nothing more than to pick your pockets.

But playing with an alternate / old set of rules is still playing. This activity attracts new players, keeps attention on the game, and gives you reasons to someday 'get back into it.' You are indirectly contributing to their mission and perpetuating the very same status quo you seek to distance yourself from.

At the same time, it's not black and white. If you want to just ignore the current Codex, then just ignore the current Codex. Such an action just lacks the same teeth.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

But why should we stop playing when we have a perfectly functional set of rules. If someone chooses to enjoy themselves without spending the money on a new codex, can you really hold they against them? You say your store plays other editions, and I don't really see how using an older GK dex (which is still compatible, and is current until Saturday so clearly works) is any different? If it were not being updated, you'd have no issue with it, nothing's going to change about the old book you've been perfectly for happy playing against.

As to those saying it's hard to keep track of what your facing, that's your opponent's responsibility, not yours. Seeing as it's your right to question anything at any time, no problem should arise. Not to mention you've been playing against the old dex for three years, that knowledge isn't going away just because a new book comes out.

Well, what I was saying is stop playing if you want to protest their business practices. That's the logical and rational approach to dealing with a commercial entity you don't agree with. They either respect you as a consumer or you should walk away, there's no dignity in being slavishly devoted to a product made by people who want nothing more than to pick your pockets.

But playing with an alternate / old set of rules is still playing. This activity attracts new players, keeps attention on the game, and gives you reasons to someday 'get back into it.' You are indirectly contributing to their mission and perpetuating the very same status quo you seek to distance yourself from.

At the same time, it's not black and white. If you want to just ignore the current Codex, then just ignore the current Codex. Such an action just lacks the same teeth.

I sort of see what your saying, but I dont agree.

I still enjoy playing 40k a lot, and regularly buy new models and life the setting and universe. I'm not on a one man crusade to bring down GW, as model-wise they produce a great product. I only object to this codex as I really don't see why it was necessary and there is objectively less content than before, so I don't see why people are just happy to buy it.

It's this codex, not GW as some kind of evil entity that I have a problem with.

Just out of curiosity, how much content do you EXPECT from an organization consisting of about 1000 guys? (and some unimportant tech support who does not take part in battle) they number of units in the codex are more than enough to cover the different bases of a very small and single-minded organization.

Heck, you can quite say they are not MEANT to be an individual army, they CAN be, much like stormtroopers, LoTD, etc, but not meant to be. they meant to be, at their heart, a specialist supplementary force to the big imperial armies.

So yea, running the old GK book now requires 3 sources, but was there ever a rational reason why inquisition or assassins bound to the GK to begin with? people forget that they USED to be separate entities in the game, and got mixed for no good reason.
You can very well run your army with the new rules, legally, without buying a single one, we got something called the internet nowdays.
Not approving of how the new rules are handled is a good reason not to PAY for them, but not to even PLAY them?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how much content do you EXPECT from an organization consisting of about 1000 guys? (and some unimportant tech support who does not take part in battle) they number of units in the codex are more than enough to cover the different bases of a very small and single-minded organization.

Heck, you can quite say they are not MEANT to be an individual army, they CAN be, much like stormtroopers, LoTD, etc, but not meant to be. they meant to be, at their heart, a specialist supplementary force to the big imperial armies.

So yea, running the old GK book now requires 3 sources, but was there ever a rational reason why inquisition or assassins bound to the GK to begin with? people forget that they USED to be separate entities in the game, and got mixed for no good reason.
You can very well run your army with the new rules, legally, without buying a single one, we got something called the internet nowdays.
Not approving of how the new rules are handled is a good reason not to PAY for them, but not to even PLAY them?

Your argument doesnt hold. SM chapters are also 1000 strong, but they have more toys to play with than we do - not just vanilla UMs, but also chapters like DA, SW, BA etc. Also by your logic, the next SM codex should (and, heh, probably will, now that the book is out) remove LotD.

We only have the GK equivalents to Tactical squads (PAGKs), Terminator squads (GK Termies), Assault Squads (Interceptors), Devastators (Purgators), and then we also have Purifiers (PAGKs on steroids) and Paladins (Termies on steroids), and thats it. From the SM motorpool we only get the Rhino, Razorback, Stormraven, LR variants and Dreadnought, and with it the Techmarine, and thats it. Oh and the Nemesis DK.

This means we are missing things like scouts, bikes, predators, vindies, whirlwinds, vanguard etc. and I'm not even going into faction specifics like centurions, stalkers, hunters, deathwing knights, death company etc.

There are alot more SM chapters than GK chapters though.
And the manpower is "recycled" more often, leaving more room for new ideas and new types to get be.
It DOES apply just as much to wolves, who got no followers, but that's another issue.

And yes, I think LoTD do not belong in codex marines, they are not part of them and show up even when there are no other marines.

GK do not HAVE any scouts, they recruit trained marines of other chapters, no scout bikes either than.
Preds, cindies, whirls, bikers, etc are simply not part of the GK doctrine, and never were in fluff or rules.
As for "special" things, GK has their own specials instead. paladins, NDK, all-unique heavy/special guns.

Now as for having "equivalents" of some marines things, that's the point-they are NOT so much of equivalents.
The "tactical" have better guns, and all carry force sword-and psykers ofc. the "assaults" can teleport, and again much better equipped, the better equipment (vastly so) applies on every so-call "equivalent", and its not like the DA codex where tacticals, scouts, etc are practically identical to codex marines.

All these toys the SM get represent all the vast array of different forces, equipment and tactics used across the galaxy in vastly different methods and scenarios, against vastly different enemies, the GK are, and fluff-wise always has been a focus, single-minded organization with tight doctrines and a single purpose-to kill demons.
They don't have bikers and drop pods, because they dont need them-if they need speed, they teleport.
The don't have tanks, because you don't field tanks against a demonic incursion, you go there yourself and banish them.
They don't have scouts because they don't RECRUIT scouts to begin with.

They are, fluff-wise, a tiny and very, VERY specialized force. they SHOULDNT be too complex with a pletora of options and vastly different units, because fluff-wise they just DONT have that.

Also, for those who complained about the power level, most SM players would upgrade to the "equivalent" without a blink where they in their own codex.

 BoomWolf wrote:
So yea, running the old GK book now requires 3 sources, but was there ever a rational reason why inquisition or assassins bound to the GK to begin with?

GKs are the military arm of the Ordo Malleus so yes it's very reasonable that they work closely with them. From the wiki: "The Grey Knights act as the military arm or Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Daemonhunters who form the oldest branch of the virtually omnipotent Inquisition. The Grey Knights' fortress-monastery is based on Titan, the largest of the moons of the gas giant Saturn in the Sol System, that is kept as a private preserve of the Inquisition." and "This organisation, which was eventually named the Imperial Inquisition, was to include a branch of specialised warriors, as the onset of the Heresy demonstrated that a powerful military force was necessary to fight the daemonic minions of Chaos."

Since you could deploy only GKs, only Inquisition or both it worked really well. Nothing was lost by putting both in one codex, a lot was lost by separating them.

Assassins I know sfa about, they do seem separate and I don't care so much about them not being there.

And the ordo hereticus? xenos?
How about henchmen. how often do you suppose henchmen (without even inquisitors mind you) do you think work as part of a GK strike force?

And inquisitors, especially hereticus and xenos literally could not hand out with other armies except gray knights?
What logic is that a bunch of gray knight strike members or terminators have to tag along if an hereticus inqusitor an his team joined up with some sisters in an anti-traitor operation? or if a xenos and his buddies team up with some space marines to tackle some aliens?

And once inquisitors WERE separated so they could hang out with every imperial army, as they should. what reason was there to leave a second copy in the GK codex? they CAN work as a team still, allies rules are made for this, especially within the IoM.

I've seen a lot of griping over "use old rules" vs "using new rules". The way I view it is this: Play what is more fun for you. At the end of the day, this is, after all...a game. And no one plays a game to have a bad time. If someone wanted to use an old codex in a game with me, that's fine. Use it. But you'd be expected to use only the units/gear avail in THAT book, and they don't get their updated rules. If a player with last edition Orks wanted to play me, I'd be fine. I'd just use my new Ork dex. He wouldn't get the decreased costs I have, my warlord traits, my relics, my new unit or formations.

I can understand from a money perspective that someone can't get the newer books, and in that case I'm not going to be an ass. Money is money, and if you don't have it, you don't have it. But I'd urge them to get the newer books so we are all playing on proper power scales for the edition we are playing.

If your group plays only 6th or 5th, that's more power too you. I'm not going to look down my nose at you for playing what's fun for you. It's like Magic. I played strictly Commander and no other format, because that was fun to me. I can't count the time the Standard or Modern players gave me a stink eye, as Commander for a while was considered scrub format.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And the ordo hereticus? xenos?

Fine - name it codex inquisition then and have GK as a subset of them, I don't care in the slightest. Then you could add a deathwatch for Ordo Xenos to replace the assassins that were removed, works for me! GKs are the militant arm of one, DW works closely with another.

How about henchmen. how often do you suppose henchmen (without even inquisitors mind you) do you think work as part of a GK strike force?

Obviously enough to warrant their inclusion together in the first place. Henchmen, guardsmen, whatever are all expendable fodder for the GKs who will be killed after the mission is over anyway.

And once inquisitors WERE separated so they could hang out with every imperial army, as they should. what reason was there to leave a second copy in the GK codex? they CAN work as a team still, allies rules are made for this, especially within the IoM.

They already could hang out with any army as is thanks to allies rules. Ally GKs, take an inquisitor... easy.

Melevolence wrote:
I can understand from a money perspective that someone can't get the newer books, and in that case I'm not going to be an ass. Money is money, and if you don't have it, you don't have it. But I'd urge them to get the newer books so we are all playing on proper power scales for the edition we are playing.

If only the codices were on the same power scale ; p

Im going to use the old one for a while. I cant buy it right now so I mean what choice is there. Other priorities ar in the way this month. Maybe people will just me keep doing it. Ill ask TO's. But ultimately there isnt a REAL choice. if nothing else my blog has to get an update on the new codex. Seems inevitable that ill adopt the new one. Eventually....

Melevolence wrote:
I've seen a lot of griping over "use old rules" vs "using new rules". The way I view it is this: Play what is more fun for you. At the end of the day, this is, after all...a game. And no one plays a game to have a bad time. If someone wanted to use an old codex in a game with me, that's fine. Use it. But you'd be expected to use only the units/gear avail in THAT book, and they don't get their updated rules. If a player with last edition Orks wanted to play me, I'd be fine. I'd just use my new Ork dex. He wouldn't get the decreased costs I have, my warlord traits, my relics, my new unit or formations.

I can understand from a money perspective that someone can't get the newer books, and in that case I'm not going to be an ass. Money is money, and if you don't have it, you don't have it. But I'd urge them to get the newer books so we are all playing on proper power scales for the edition we are playing.

If your group plays only 6th or 5th, that's more power too you. I'm not going to look down my nose at you for playing what's fun for you. It's like Magic. I played strictly Commander and no other format, because that was fun to me. I can't count the time the Standard or Modern players gave me a stink eye, as Commander for a while was considered scrub format.

Possibly the most reasonable post in the thread so far, exalted. And I really wouldn't expect people to mix codexes. Paying more and having no relics is part and parcel of using the older one.

@Boomwolf: I have to say you make a good argument regarding the inquisition, but thinking about it, I'd have no problem with them being removed it we had been given something else. The fact is, we are paying more for objectively less, and that's where I have an issue. If they're going to cut content, they should drop the price, and conversely, if they're going to up the price, they should do something to make it worth it. Hence why I had no issues with the SW and IG releases, they took away some stuff but added units and option as well.

I will be using the old book because the group I play with have all decided to stick with 5th ed. If I ever decide to play at other stores I will have a fun time since I only have 1 or 2 6th/7th ed books and no rule book newer than 5th . As for if I would use the new book or not, I probably would! I like the little I know about it, except the second book needed to field Inquisition.

They already could hang out with any army as is thanks to allies rules. Ally GKs, take an inquisitor... easy.

Except you couldn't just have Inquisitors and their teams as the only HQ's were Special Characters and GK =- at least now you can have your own/ generic Inquisitors without having to drag along Grey Knights every time.........

If as has been suggested they had done Inquisition Codex with the two Chambers Militant (Grey Knights and Death Watch) that would have been awesome but only if you could take Inquisitors and their teams without the marines........

Assassins are the same - they never should have been in the GK Codex.....

I do agree they should have made the revised GK only Codex much less than a normal Codex - but then they charge nearly full price for the Knight Codex which to be fair I enjoyed the fluff there.

 Mr Morden wrote:

They already could hang out with any army as is thanks to allies rules. Ally GKs, take an inquisitor... easy.

Except you couldn't just have Inquisitors and their teams as the only HQ's were Special Characters and GK =- at least now you can have your own/ generic Inquisitors without having to drag along Grey Knights every time.........

If as has been suggested they had done Inquisition Codex with the two Chambers Militant (Grey Knights and Death Watch) that would have been awesome but only if you could take Inquisitors and their teams without the marines........

Not true. Of course there were generic inquisitors in the old gk book. Did you even read it?

Edit:
Okay henchmen were only troops with coteaz. You are correct. Im dumb.

...Our local ork and tyranid players are still using their old codices and so will most likely the GK. I just don't see much motivation to spend a lot of money on a book that is so, well, unnecessary. What does the new codex bring that the old one lacked and that is worth the price? We are starting to have difficulties seeing the value.

You could argue 'army balance changes' but that is not even close to worth the money, especially seeing as it's just a drop in the ocean in the game balance as a whole. The new codex actually -removes- units for whatever reason. And I have seen little mention of cool new fluff or art. I guess you are 'forced' to buy it to play in tournaments and against pick-up players who assume using an old book is cheesemongering, but that does not add value to the book.

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Our local ork and tyranid players are still using their old codices and so will most likely the GK. I just don't see much motivation to spend a lot of money on a book that is so, well, unnecessary. What does the new codex bring that the old one lacked and that is worth the price? We are starting to have difficulties seeing the value.

For the most part the Grey Knight units have gotten better and/or cheaper.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Our local ork and tyranid players are still using their old codices and so will most likely the GK. I just don't see much motivation to spend a lot of money on a book that is so, well, unnecessary. What does the new codex bring that the old one lacked and that is worth the price? We are starting to have difficulties seeing the value.

For the most part the Grey Knight units have gotten better and/or cheaper.

We can do that with an A4 and a pencil, and 15 minutes of debate. It is not worth the price. Anyone with a little playing experience can spot bad balance and adjust it.

I still feel balance changes should be 'patched' (such as via errata, or ideally just more pre-release playtesting) and new codices would only be warranted when there's new fluff, art, and units coming.