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Does anyone else see the overlap with 40k pskyers and mages in Dragon Age?

I only played the first one, but I trusted the Templars more than the mages. Of course, I have never liked magic in my games.

 AdeptSister wrote:
Does anyone else see the overlap with 40k pskyers and mages in Dragon Age?

I only played the first one, but I trusted the Templars more than the mages. Of course, I have never liked magic in my games.

That was the very first thing I thought when I saw the Fade.
I mean, the Fade is pretty much the warp. Except not as fethed up.

 AdeptSister wrote:
Does anyone else see the overlap with 40k pskyers and mages in Dragon Age?

Less a matter of "overlap" and more a matter of "ganked."

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I mean, the Fade is pretty much the warp. Except not as fethed up.

True, the Fade is pretty much a boring version of the Warp.

I guess you could make the argument though that a "proper" version of the warp would be unbearable to play through.

But then again, only those with very strong character and constitution are supposed to resist contact with the warp, so it works out in the end.

thedarkavenger wrote:Both factions are meant to portray a necessary evil in society.

The thing is, nobody truly "needs" mages. Their services are just bonus.

Chantry creed actually promotes treating mages as a part of society, even justifying their existence by stating that "magic was created to serve mankind, not rule it". Ideally, the Templars exist to protect both the people from the mages, as well as the mages from the people (and themselves). The problem presented in the current era is that after so many centuries, a sort of corruption has set in with the Templar Order, causing many of its soldiers to stray from their ideals and succumb to the feeling of having a lot of power over other human beings. This isn't any different from the issues a lot of police forces or militaries have to deal with, either, especially as a strong esprit-du-corps that connects the members of an organisation can cause leaders to dismiss complaints or attempt to window-dress breaches of their code and outright atrocities out of misguided cameraderie and/or shame. Cleverly, BioWare is once again mirroring real world issues here. Except that with the Templars it may be even worse because they're essentially addicts whose minds are, sooner or later, affected by lyrium exposure.

In some cases, Templars even allowed themselves to be guided by bigotry or barely subdued hate caused by personal experience. Take Knight-Commander Meredith, for example. Her own sister was a mage, and her family decided to hide her from the Chantry. Ultimately, the girl got possessed by a daemon and killed her entire family save for Meredith, who became an orphan cared for by the church (and ultimately inducted into the Templar Order). Is it any wonder she has a bit of a bias regarding mages' claims to be able to take care of themselves? Especially given that Kirkwall had a long-standing problem with blood mages due to the Veil being thin there? And especially given how the First Enchanter wasn't very forthcoming and cooperative, instead trying to cover up everything his rogue charges did, blocking Templar investigations at every step?

Originally, this is what the Seekers were created to do. Keep a look at the Templars and "watch the watchers", as the saying goes. Kind of like an internal investigations division for the police. Except that the Seekers as an organisation messed up twice - once because they allowed this cancer within the heart of the Templar Order to fester for too long, affecting ever more generations of guardians (possibly due to personnel shortage; surely the Seekers cannot be everywhere as once, just like real world investigators), and secondly because of their last leader, Lambert van Reeves, who was an exceptionally bad choice for the job. For you see, Lord-Seeker Lambert was born in Tevinter, where he served with the Imperial Chantry and happened to believe in coexistence with the mages. Forming bonds of friendship with one such mage, he used his position in the Chantry to further erode the safety guards in place to control the mages, and assisted in his friend's rise to power until he became the first mage to become the Black Divine. Once on this throne, abuse of power became rampant and Lambert began to see he got duped. Ridiculed by his former friends and chastised for his views he left to join the Seekers.

So the boss of the organisation that is supposed to check if the Templars are treating the mages too roughly was a mage-hater himself, and this showed in the policies and orders that ultimately culminated in the Mage-Templar War, which did not start with the bombing of the Kirkwall Chantry, but with the White Spire's moderate Knight-Commander Eron being relieved of his duty and control over the Order held by Lambert himself, who used his position to dismiss the worries of other moderate Templars like Eron's former second-in-command, Knight-Captain Evangeline, and install extremists more suitable to enforce Lambert's personal views regarding mage control. What happened in Kirkwall was merely lighting the fuse, but the true explosion came when Grand Enchanter Fiona foolishly tried to turn a harmless meeting into a second vote for independence (notably after the first one, held after the Kirkwall incident, had already failed due to most First Enchanters voting "no") and Lambert, just looking for an excuse to shut down the conclave, had the place stormed by his troops, forcing everyone's hands.

And now here we are. Basically, everyone messed up, but there are some whose blame is heavier than others'.

/fluff

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I mean, the Fade is pretty much the warp. Except not as fethed up.

Yeah, good point. Probably because the Spirits take all concepts and emotions rather than just focusing on the strongest ones. And there seem to be a lot less Spirits than Warp entities, at least in terms of manifestations.
Though I'm sure there are areas of the Fade that are just as insane as the Warp.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:But then again, only those with very strong character and constitution are supposed to resist contact with the warp, so it works out in the end.

What role could constitution possibly play in a realm where the laws of physics do not apply?

 Lynata wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:Both factions are meant to portray a necessary evil in society.

The thing is, nobody truly "needs" mages. Their services are just bonus.

Chantry creed actually promotes treating mages as a part of society, even justifying their existence by stating that "magic was created to serve mankind, not rule it". Ideally, the Templars exist to protect both the people from the mages, as well as the mages from the people (and themselves). The problem presented in the current era is that after so many centuries, a sort of corruption has set in with the Templar Order, causing many of its soldiers to stray from their ideals and succumb to the feeling of having a lot of power over other human beings. This isn't any different from the issues a lot of police forces or militaries have to deal with, either, especially as a strong esprit-du-corps that connects the members of an organisation can cause leaders to dismiss complaints or attempt to window-dress breaches of their code and outright atrocities out of misguided cameraderie and/or shame. Cleverly, BioWare is once again mirroring real world issues here. Except that with the Templars it may be even worse because they're essentially addicts whose minds are, sooner or later, affected by lyrium exposure.

In some cases, Templars even allowed themselves to be guided by bigotry or barely subdued hate caused by personal experience. Take Knight-Commander Meredith, for example. Her own sister was a mage, and her family decided to hide her from the Chantry. Ultimately, the girl got possessed by a daemon and killed her entire family save for Meredith, who became an orphan cared for by the church (and ultimately inducted into the Templar Order). Is it any wonder she has a bit of a bias regarding mages' claims to be able to take care of themselves? Especially given that Kirkwall had a long-standing problem with blood mages due to the Veil being thin there? And especially given how the First Enchanter wasn't very forthcoming and cooperative, instead trying to cover up everything his rogue charges did, blocking Templar investigations at every step?

Originally, this is what the Seekers were created to do. Keep a look at the Templars and "watch the watchers", as the saying goes. Kind of like an internal investigations division for the police. Except that the Seekers as an organisation messed up twice - once because they allowed this cancer within the heart of the Templar Order to fester for too long, affecting ever more generations of guardians (possibly due to personnel shortage; surely the Seekers cannot be everywhere as once, just like real world investigators), and secondly because of their last leader, Lambert van Reeves, who was an exceptionally bad choice for the job. For you see, Lord-Seeker Lambert was born in Tevinter, where he served with the Imperial Chantry and happened to believe in coexistence with the mages. Forming bonds of friendship with one such mage, he used his position in the Chantry to further erode the safety guards in place to control the mages, and assisted in his friend's rise to power until he became the first mage to become the Black Divine. Once on this throne, abuse of power became rampant and Lambert began to see he got duped. Ridiculed by his former friends and chastised for his views he left to join the Seekers.

So the boss of the organisation that is supposed to check if the Templars are treating the mages too roughly was a mage-hater himself, and this showed in the policies and orders that ultimately culminated in the Mage-Templar War, which did not start with the bombing of the Kirkwall Chantry, but with the White Spire's moderate Knight-Commander Eron being relieved of his duty and control over the Order held by Lambert himself, who used his position to dismiss the worries of other moderate Templars like Eron's former second-in-command, Knight-Captain Evangeline, and install extremists more suitable to enforce Lambert's personal views regarding mage control. What happened in Kirkwall was merely lighting the fuse, but the true explosion came when Grand Enchanter Fiona foolishly tried to turn a harmless meeting into a second vote for independence (notably after the first one, held after the Kirkwall incident, had already failed due to most First Enchanters voting "no") and Lambert, just looking for an excuse to shut down the conclave, had the place stormed by his troops, forcing everyone's hands.

And now here we are.

/fluff

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I mean, the Fade is pretty much the warp. Except not as fethed up.

Yeah, good point. Probably because the Spirits take all concepts and emotions rather than just focusing on the strongest ones. And there seem to be a lot less Spirits than Warp entities, at least in terms of manifestations.
Though I'm sure there are areas of the Fade that are just as insane as the Warp.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:But then again, only those with very strong character and constitution are supposed to resist contact with the warp, so it works out in the end.

What role could constitution possibly play in a realm where the laws of physics do not apply?

Didn't Tuska survive the warp because he is really, really tough? I always thought exposure to the warp would be like standing in front of a volcano.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Didn't Tuska survive the warp because he is really, really tough? I always thought exposure to the warp would be like standing in front of a volcano.

I had to re-check for that name, but I'd argue that this orc wasn't actually in the "real" Warp. A daemonworld on the fringes of the Eye of Terror is still a physical thing, and I assume it'd have most of the laws of our normal world (gravity etc) in place.

What I meant was the "raw" Warp where everything is really just a big, gooey mess of purple energy where things change, manifest and dissolve every (proverbial) second or so.

That's just how I picture the "real" Warp to be, mind you.

Masterful post, Lynata. You really raised a lot of excellent points there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From the trailer:

"All this happened because of fanatics and arguments about the next world. It's time we start believing in this one."

* fights demons *

Methinks Lynata has read Dragon Age: Asunder a few times too many.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


But they effectively enslave the magi. Case in point, the rite of annulment in DA:O.

On the other hand, mages are portrayed as a bunch of power-mad crazies who just want to blow everything up.

Let's switch the order of these statements:

Mages are portrayed as a bunch of power-mad crazies who just want to blow everything up.

They effectively enslave the magi. Case in point, the rite of annulment in DA:O.

Mages must be controlled. There is no other choice or solution to the problem. They need to be controlled with an iron grip. Case and point: Anders. Marill. Jowan. Pretty much every single mage you encounter. Wynne doesn't really count, though, as she's less of a human and more of a magical being itself.

They also enslave how many humans? If they deem a mage too dangerous, they cut off their ability to feel emotions.

My point is that neither faction is wholly in the right. They're both flawed. I find myself supporting neither, over my experiences of both games.

Do you think there is a difference between being imprisoned and being enslaved?

 Manchu wrote:
Do you think there is a difference between being imprisoned and being enslaved?

Well, being imprisoned usually follows committing a crime. Being imprisoned because you have the potential to commit a crime would be pretty much slavery in my eyes.

Bromsy wrote:Well, being imprisoned usually follows committing a crime. Being imprisoned because you have the potential to commit a crime would be pretty much slavery in my eyes.

Or if you are otherwise a threat to your community.
Current example: people infected with the ebola virus. Mages aren't imprisoned, they are quarantined.

Magic is both a blessing and a curse. Mages need to be kept in check as a matter of necessity. However, it should be done as humane as possible, and this is where the Templar Order sometimes falls short of its ideals. I'm sure it's also different depending on the region, though, depending both on local culture (affinity to violence + native population bias against mages tainting possible recruits even before they join the Chantry) and whoever is the Knight-Commander in charge of the area. I mean, the guy from DA1 seemed pretty sensible, right? And got along well with his First Enchanter, too.

(says I, currently playing this character in our DA P&P and keeping a watchful eye on the group's mage)

Compel wrote:Methinks Lynata has read Dragon Age: Asunder a few times too many.

Just once, actually. I was a bit pissed by
Sometimes it feels as if BW is pushing the "side with the mages, pleeeassseee" a bit too hard. Then again, I'm Pro-Templar, and I often hear Pro-Mage fans complaining about BW supposedly always making them look bad with the blood magic and possessions. So maybe the writers are doing the exact right thing?
It's almost like a social experiment! Psychologists and sociologists would probably have a field day just reading the BSN forums whenever that discussion breaks out again.

Oh well. At least it seems as if in DA3 you finally build a proper coalition out of all those splintered factions by pointing them at a bigger problem.

Also, I really like the memes born from the whole blood magic and templars thing.

To me, slavery turns a person into an object that is owned. We don't say the state owns prisoners; but we do say prisoners are the responsibility of the state. The state can very severely limit the liberty of prisoners but the prisoners remain persons under the law. I think the same is true of the Mages. Their freedom is circumscribed because of the magnitude of danger inherent to their abilities; but they are not objects that the Templars can do whatever to them.

But you do make a really good point about prisoners and crime. Mages generally aren't guilty of any crime; even the Chantry does not IIRC teach that being a Mage is a crime. It is more of a condition. So the Circles are more like asylums or hospitals. Mages are not imprisoned because of some crime; rather they are institutionalized because of their condition. What is interesting is that the Templars and the senior Mages cooperate in administering treatment and care. And really, it is the Mages rather than the Templars who are the "doctors" in this metaphor. The Templars are just the orderlies/administrators.

Manchu wrote:So the Circles are more like asylums or hospitals. Mages are not imprisoned because of some crime; rather they are institutionalized because of their condition. What is interesting is that the Templars and the senior Mages cooperate in administering treatment and care. And really, it is the Mages rather than the Templars who are the "doctors" in this metaphor. The Templars are just the orderlies/administrators.

A clever analogy, if you don't mind me returning a compliment.

This is also what I got from the Dragon Age P&P RPG, whose books went through BioWare approval. It's a cooperation - and it explains why most First Enchanters voted "no" for independence from the Chantry, after the Kirkwall incident.
The most common troublemakers in this setup are the young ones. Young mages (like Anders) who don't want to conform, and young Templars whose zeal has not yet been tempered by the wisdom and compassion of age and routine.

 Lynata wrote:
Sometimes it feels as if BW is pushing the "side with the mages, pleeeassseee" a bit too hard.

Agreed -- as I mentioned above, I think it is because there really is no convincing systemic argument against the Templars. All complaints about the Templars come down to individual lapses of discipline and/or personal honor/ethics rather than with some flaw inherent to the institution.

But as you can see, I am also pro-Templar -- although I like to say as a result of objectively considering the setting rather than rationalizing the setting after siding with the Templars. As much as Morrigan annoyed me, I really despised Alistair.

If anything, I guess Anders could have hardened my hopefully objective view into something more militant.

Due to my massive laziness levels, any one got an eye on a release date?

11/18 for us Yanks

 Manchu wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Sometimes it feels as if BW is pushing the "side with the mages, pleeeassseee" a bit too hard.

Agreed -- as I mentioned above, I think it is because there really is no convincing systemic argument against the Templars. All complaints about the Templars come down to individual lapses of discipline and/or personal honor/ethics rather than with some flaw inherent to the institution.

But as you can see, I am also pro-Templar -- although I like to say as a result of objectively considering the setting rather than rationalizing the setting after siding with the Templars. As much as Morrigan annoyed me, I really despised Alistair.

If anything, I guess Anders could have hardened my hopefully objective view into something more militant.

Well, I think the lyrium addiction and quite likely mental imbalances caused by it's consumption aren't the greatest things ever. I'd even posit that the 'individual' lapses are in fact systemic lapses caused by those very mental imbalances - paranoia and hatred of magic.

I'm not sure I know the truth about lyrium. Is it actually more than a leash for the Templars? Does it actually make them better at what they do?

One thing is certain: the side effects are known and one would guess the Templars take certain precautions against them.

 Manchu wrote:
I'm not sure I know the truth about lyrium. Is it actually more than a leash for the Templars? Does it actually make them better at what they do?

One thing is certain: the side effects are known and one would guess the Templars take certain precautions against them.

What are you referencing when you say that the side effects are known?

 Bromsy wrote:
What are you referencing when you say that the side effects are known?

The codex entry in DAO and Alistair's dialog.

 Manchu wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
What are you referencing when you say that the side effects are known?

The codex entry in DAO and Alistair's dialog.

You mean the one that says

Often portrayed as stoic and grim, the Order of Templars was created as the martial arm of the Chantry. Armed with the ability to dispel and resist magic in addition to their formidable combat talents, the templars are uniquely qualified to act as both a foil for apostates - mages who refuse to submit to the authority of the Circle - and a first line of defense against the dark powers of blood mages and abominations.

While mages often resent the templars as symbols of the Chantry's control over magic, the people of Thedas see them as saviors and holy warriors, champions of all that is good, armed with piety enough to protect the world from the ravages of foul magic. In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices.

The templars' power derives from the substance lyrium, a mineral believed to be the raw element of creation. While mages use lyrium in their arcane spells and rituals, templars ingest the primordial mineral to enhance their abilities to resist and dispel magic. Lyrium use is regulated by the Chantry, but some templars suffer from lyrium addiction, the effects of which include paranoia, obsession, and dementia. Templars knowingly submit themselves to this "treatment" in the service of the Order and the Maker.

It is this sense of ruthless piety that most frightens mages when they draw the templars' attention: When the templars are sent to eliminate a possible blood mage, there is no reasoning with them, and if the templars are prepared, the mage's magic is all but useless. Driven by their faith, the templars are one of the most feared and respected forces in Thedas.

--From Patterns Within Form, by Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, 8:80 Blessed.

So what measures do they take to gauge the degrees of addiction, paranoia, obsession and dementia? What empirical statistics are available?

Templars do not suffer these symptoms. They have a constant supply of Lyrium.

In DA2, you meet a former templar who is a wreck because of no longer being able to get Lyrium legally.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Templars do not suffer these symptoms. They have a constant supply of Lyrium.

In DA2, you meet a former templar who is a wreck because of no longer being able to get Lyrium legally.

There are rumors and/or canon that suggests that lyrium addiction can be cured, much like a heroin addiction. Weening the subject off of it slowly because going cold turkey will either kill or drive the subject insane.

This seems like quite a cool idea, I wonder how it'll work in actual practice. If it requires you to remember what your choices were from DA1 for example, Im boned since I can barely remember last weekend.

http://www.dragonage.com/#!/en_US/news/building-the-dragon-age-keep

It's an awesome idea. I don't have my old savegames anymore and don't have the time, or motivation, to play through the entirety of DA:O + Awakening again.

 Bromsy wrote:
You mean the one that says

No. I mean the one on lyrium. It says, in part

 Bromsy wrote:
So what measures do they take to gauge the degrees of addiction, paranoia, obsession and dementia? What empirical statistics are available?

Statistics are unnecessary to understand exposure to lyrium causes those problems. I don't know whether Thedas has IRL modern medical science (seems doubtful) yet they somehow do know all that stuff about lyrium.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Loghain was a very good character and well-written. At the start of the game, he is immediately made to look like a bad guy, giving the player the motivation and a clear-cut "villain". The blight is a huge threat, of course, but having a central, personalized villain always is a stronger motivation. Over the course of the game, however, you realize that Loghain, by refusing to intervening in Ostagar, he did his part of saving Ferelden by not foolishly sacrificing them for a mad king, but saving them for the final assault on the Archdemon.

Yes, and no.

Loghain's real problem was Orlais. He was still paranoid about Orlesian ambitions against Fereldan. Given that he'd fought in the resistance during the Orlesian occupation, this is understandable. But it also caused him to persuade Cailin to block the Orlesian Grey Warden contingent from entering the country. If he hadn't done that, then the King's army likely could have held its position until the reinforcements arrived, and the combined army could have dealt with the Blight then and there.

Amusingly enough, if you leave Loghain alive in DA:O, and then play Awakenings, you meet up with him as he's being transferred to the Orlesian chapter of the Wardens. He comments on the irony of the situation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bromsy wrote:
I didn't feel like the mages vs templars debate was all that one sided. In the stricter chantries mages are basically slaves; with the caveat that instead of being dismissed like most slaves - they are instead hated and feared. Large segments of the population are shown to completely distrust them

...and DA2 shows that they are right. Mages in the DA universe, if we take DA2 as canon, are loose cannons of the worst sort that need to be controlled. If given the choice in DA3, I will immediately side with the Templars and will do anything to weaken the mages.

The problem in Kirkwall is that both sides are essentially correct. There are a lot of mages in Kirkwall consorting with demons, or engaging in other forbidden pursuits. And the head of the tower is actively communicating with one (specifically, the insane serial killer mage who murders Hawke's mother). Meanwhile, there are Templars engaging in anti-mage activities that even Meredith, the head of the Templars, doesn't condone (a letter that you find on the Templar in Ander's second mission consists of Meredith telling the Templar not to do the exact thing that you just stopped him from doing). And the abuses on both sides push their counterparts to get even worse.

The background lore discovered during the game hints that the Tevinter mages did... something... that makes it easier for demons to tempt mages in Kirkwall. This is a possible explanation for why there are more abominations in Kirkwall.


It's somewhat ironic that one of the most sympathetic Templars you meet in DA2 (and he does come across as fairly rational and level-headed) is the same one who was screaming to burn the tower down in DA:O.

The problem with Mages is not that a few of them break the rules. The problem is that the consequences of even one of them breaking the rules can be devastating.

By contrast, the damage any given "bad" Templar can cause is extremely limited.