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Sorry, by cost I ment money value.

Who can say...
I have 15 trukks I remember buying 2 new and maybe 3 from Ebay the rest I got in trade from a friend for an IG army. I got all his ork army. I'm still looking for motivation to paint them.

 slip wrote:
Warbikers are as good as any bike in the game.

I am going to HEAVILY contest that statement... right off the top of my head, Ravenwing Black Knights, Reaver Jetbikes, Scatter Laser Windriders, T6 Death Guard CSM Bikers, and Screamers of Tzeentch (unit type: jetbike) are all absolutely better than warbikers.

the_scotsman wrote:

 slip wrote:
Warbikers are as good as any bike in the game.

I am going to HEAVILY contest that statement... right off the top of my head, Ravenwing Black Knights, Reaver Jetbikes, Scatter Laser Windriders, T6 Death Guard CSM Bikers, and Screamers of Tzeentch (unit type: jetbike) are all absolutely better than warbikers.

They can be better (reavers are certainly not), but that doesn't make orks bikes not good.

Davor wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Davor wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...

One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.

Just curious, have a small unbuilt collection of orks (never got around to it yet), just curious how much is that 15+ Trukks going to cost? Sounds awfully expensive.

Your looking at the region of just over 1500pts with PK nobz, which really isn't that much when you consider that is 165 models all with transports.

Sorry, by cost I ment money value.

Depends if you are lucky, when I was younger I mamaged to pay £20 for a job lot of 20 boys, 6 nobz, 6 ork bikers, a buggy, a mek on a bike, a trukk, 10 guardsman, a leman russ and a lot of other bits. Sure, some of it was older models, some were broken and some were missing bits but for £20 it was a steal.

I suggest snooping around on ebay and car boots where you get parents selling off their childrens old models that they found when clearing out for cheap. I've saved a lot of money from this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 slip wrote:
Warbikers are as good as any bike in the game.

I am going to HEAVILY contest that statement... right off the top of my head, Ravenwing Black Knights, Reaver Jetbikes, Scatter Laser Windriders, T6 Death Guard CSM Bikers, and Screamers of Tzeentch (unit type: jetbike) are all absolutely better than warbikers.

Also more expensive.

In terms of where Orks actually stand among the "have-not" armies, the OP is correct in that they can be OK, they have a few semi-competitive army builds, and there's more space between the skill floor and skill ceiling than most armies.

Orks, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle and Harlequins are the bottom tier armies who sit in that space where in the hands of an unskilled player or built wrong they get absolutely clobbered by absolutely everything, but which have enough of a skill ceiling that they can *almost* scratch some competitive builds. One could argue that that puts them at the "top of the bottom" so to speak.

The true bottom of the bottom are the armies that are fundamentally flawed AND inflexible. Guard, Blood Angels, Tyranids minus their one good model. A guard army has no tricks - just firepower, and in any setting where that firepower is inadequate to stop a threat before it gets to them, they're dead. And now there's just so many super-deathstars, beefy monstrous creatures, and super fast melee threats like khornedogs and ravenwing that most of the time, guard just crumples turn 2 after not doing nearly enough damage turn 1. The game becomes a frustrating exercise of "list checking" and then realizing they've included this or that element that will just enable them to win by default.

Heres the thing, though: this doesn't mean ork, SoB and DE players have no cause to complain. Because even if they AREN'T the worst armies in the game, they are the most ignored armies in the game (along with others, guys.) There's a whole slew of armies that, since the end of 6th, have basically gotten nothing while the favored factions get enough content for 3 or 4 army updates. To see Sisters players getting psyched about the new Celestine and Dark Eldar players speculating about maybe getting Lady Malys back, and then having CSM and SM players complaining that the marines didn't get anything in this release is reasonably frustrating.

That's what people are complaining about. Not being the worst army in the game.

the_scotsman wrote:
To see Sisters players getting psyched about the new Celestine and Dark Eldar players speculating about maybe getting Lady Malys back, and then having CSM and SM players complaining that the marines didn't get anything in this release is reasonably frustrating.

To be fair CSM have had a reason to complain for the last 10 years and now that we have traitor legions most are content.

But you are right, Orks are needing some love from GW.

 Blackie wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...

One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.

I don't know the new CSM but till one year ago they really sucked, also AM and tyranids (regardless of their lists) are not better than DE, and i would say also BA and sisters. With the supplement DE are improved a lot, still a very difficult army to play efficiently but not a bottom tier. Orks are very similar to DE for many features: they're MSU centered, extremely fast, fragile, full of vehicles and bikes, good saturation but nothing really devastating in the shooting phase, no psychic phase, and also assalut focused as reavers, talos and grotesques are the best DE units and orks perform well due to their pks spam.

I respectfully disagree.
A proper CSM list from before TL will utterly destroy anything DE can field.

That goes for the rest as well.

morgoth wrote:

I respectfully disagree.
A proper CSM list from before TL will utterly destroy anything DE can field.

That goes for the rest as well.

Really? DE have a lot of expendable mobile units and chaos not great amount of firepower, also some formations like corpsethief claw and the grotesquerie are really good in close combat. CSM without daemons allied were imho the worst army in 40k with tyranids and BA since some years, now they received new stuff so i can't say that anymore but seriously CSM never passed a single match in tournaments. Maybe a tailored list can be hard counter for DE but if DE and CSM fight each other with TAC lists almost every time i've seen those elves winners of the match. As a DE player i considered chaos probably the best possible opponent we can fight in tournaments. I haven't played against the updated CSM so i can't say now, but everyone tells they improved a lot.

Orks suffer from the same problem as Nidz: 1 or 2 very strong lists, but that's it.

Yes, Orks can be a very tough army to fight, we just had a guy show up at our LGS tournament with an all biker list who did very wel. Problem is, currently they don't have any great formations and a lot of their units are over-costed, plus the 7th edition book changed/removed a lot of good options for the Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

morgoth wrote:

I respectfully disagree.
A proper CSM list from before TL will utterly destroy anything DE can field.

That goes for the rest as well.

Really? DE have a lot of expendable mobile units and chaos not great amount of firepower, also some formations like corpsethief claw and the grotesquerie are really good in close combat. CSM without daemons allied were imho the worst army in 40k with tyranids and BA since some years, now they received new stuff so i can't say that anymore but seriously CSM never passed a single match in tournaments. Maybe a tailored list can be hard counter for DE but if DE and CSM fight each other with TAC lists almost every time i've seen those elves winners of the match. As a DE player i considered chaos probably the best possible opponent we can fight in tournaments. I haven't played against the updated CSM so i can't say now, but everyone tells they improved a lot.

One question: were you fighting standalone CSM, i.e. no Forgeworld or Daemon allies? If you were, then yeah, DE and CSM are a fairly even match. Otherwise, CSM would totally destroy DE. The Forgeworld options they can take are basically the same as SM, so things like Sicaran tanks and Fire Raptor gunships will murder your forces.

Come on... the regular CSM nurgle spawn, maulerfiend + sorcs spam vs anything DE ?

But this is not about DE vs CSM, It's just that overall CSM have some weakish but solid options, whereas DE is only glass cannon without much cannon.

Hard to call sorcs, lords, spawns, bikers, oblis and drakes weak. That's right around the variety of good stuff from the eldar book that you see on the tables. Seers, scatbikes, warp spiders, knights, wraithguards, seer council.

Ofc there's a certain difference between CSM good and Eldar good but we're talking about variety now.

morgoth wrote:
Come on... the regular CSM nurgle spawn, maulerfiend + sorcs spam vs anything DE ?

But this is not about DE vs CSM, It's just that overall CSM have some weakish but solid options, whereas DE is only glass cannon without much cannon.

Here's the thing, though: CSM competitive builds heavily rely on Toughness to make themselves stronger than their opponent. The Heldrake is by far their best answer to DE, but Lances are pretty solid against Maulerfiends, who really don't like getting shot by low-AP anti tank weaponry, and Poison is very good against spawn/nurgle bikers since it don't care that you're T6.

 mrhappyface wrote:
[
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.....

lol you are a madman if you are using CSMcultists like an ork player should use boyz or visa versa.
Cultists are similar to grots. They are the kind of unit nobody really cares about and only have one purpose in the game -> standing in the way / just being there.
They are disposable blockers, their stats do not really matter. All that matters is that the unit as a whole can be used to just be there ,without being that much of a thread to any other unit in the game and are priced / valued this way.
You could pile on all sorts of useless gear and rules on them in an other codex and GW would still roughly price that unit at the same point cost per unit.

Now ork boyz are something else they are the supposed to be the core of the ork army, and actually have to be good at their job.
Ork boyz are similar to Genesteler hybrid equivalents not CSM cultist.
You and others are free to make a fool out of yourself by claiming that orks boyz are better in certain scenario's but we all know that no one is taking ork boyz unless they really have to as a power fist carrying device while the same amount of points spend on genesestealer hybrids are stuff of nightmares for many players.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
[
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.....

lol you are a madman if you are using CSMcultists like an ork player should use boyz or visa versa.
Cultists are similar to grots. They are the kind of unit nobody really cares about and only have one purpose in the game -> standing in the way / just being there.
They are disposable blockers, their stats do not really matter al that much and are priced / valued this way.

Now ork boyz are something else they are the supposed to be the core of the ork army, and actually have to be good at their job.
Ork boyz are similar to Genesteler hybrid equivalents not CSM cultist.
You and others are free to make a fool out of yourself by claiming that orks boyz are better in certain scenario's but we all know that no one is taking ork boyz unless they really have to as a power fist carrying device while the same amount of points spend on genesestealer hybrids are stuff of nightmares for many players.

Ork boyz body slamming almost anything that they get into cc with must just be my imagination then. I am sure every IK, tank, biker unit, chaos lord, daemon prince, etc. I have seen fall to boys didn't actually happen.

 slip wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 slip wrote:
That's one aspect of one unit. My list is zhad, lvl 2 weirdboy, 6x bikers, 6x bustas in trukk, 3x bully MANz. I can scout or outflank zhad and 3x bikers. Even if you maxed tomblades and spent all game blastin bikes you probably wouldn't get them all and there's way bigger problems. Not that I'm trashing necrons, they're the ork hard counter, but I'm more terrified of pylons, wraiths, and what character is gonna eat your overlords challenge.

Tomb Blades are AP4 and Ignores Cover. You said Tomb Blades were scared of Bikers because of that aspect.

I don't actually think you've played against Necrons.

Quote it. I'm pretty sure I was referring to necrons in general.

I've played enough to know that that my entire army can cover the range of your weapons in a turn and I'm fast enough and numerous enough to pick who fights where, to the point that one round of shooting from generally 1-3 units isn't gonna make the difference.

E: like are you running a decurion or not? How's the rest of that gauss weaponry doing against the bikers? Yes, having jink against necrons is useful. Especially when playing with trukks that need to be screened. Their value is undeniable.

"Vs Necrons Bikers shine with their 3+ jink and Zhad's 2+ jink"
This can be interpreted in a few ways.
1. You think they shine vs Tomb Blades
2. You've never seen Tomb Blades
3. You've never been charged by anything, which is silly.

Also I'm perfectly content with someone rushing after me because that just means I can potentially charge against you myself. I don't care about your AWESOME 3+ jink save. I can shoot what I can and charge you as well. I run minimum 13 Tomb Blades in my lists.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 slip wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 slip wrote:
That's one aspect of one unit. My list is zhad, lvl 2 weirdboy, 6x bikers, 6x bustas in trukk, 3x bully MANz. I can scout or outflank zhad and 3x bikers. Even if you maxed tomblades and spent all game blastin bikes you probably wouldn't get them all and there's way bigger problems. Not that I'm trashing necrons, they're the ork hard counter, but I'm more terrified of pylons, wraiths, and what character is gonna eat your overlords challenge.

Tomb Blades are AP4 and Ignores Cover. You said Tomb Blades were scared of Bikers because of that aspect.

I don't actually think you've played against Necrons.

Quote it. I'm pretty sure I was referring to necrons in general.

I've played enough to know that that my entire army can cover the range of your weapons in a turn and I'm fast enough and numerous enough to pick who fights where, to the point that one round of shooting from generally 1-3 units isn't gonna make the difference.

E: like are you running a decurion or not? How's the rest of that gauss weaponry doing against the bikers? Yes, having jink against necrons is useful. Especially when playing with trukks that need to be screened. Their value is undeniable.

"Vs Necrons Bikers shine with their 3+ jink and Zhad's 2+ jink"
This can be interpreted in a few ways.
1. You think they shine vs Tomb Blades
2. You've never seen Tomb Blades
3. You've never been charged by anything, which is silly.

Also I'm perfectly content with someone rushing after me because that just means I can potentially charge against you myself. I don't care about your AWESOME 3+ jink save. I can shoot what I can and charge you as well. I run minimum 13 Tomb Blades in my lists.

That's a pretty goofy statement, Slip. Tomb Blades are absolutely, ABSOLUTELY lethal against Orks, because of what Slayer wrote. Tomb Blades being T5, 3+ save, RP, with an AP 4 Ignores Cover and IIRC S5 Blast means they will murder warbikers/boyz/basically anything not with a 3+ save.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Ork boyz body slamming almost anything that they get into cc with must just be my imagination then. I am sure every IK, tank, biker unit, chaos lord, daemon prince, etc. I have seen fall to boys didn't actually happen.

Sure ork boyz can kill that stuff, no ork player would ever dispute that. Its just that you need too much points of ork boyz to get the job done especially once you start comparing them with other units that have the same role.

 Krusha wrote:

I've been playing for a couple of years now against a variety of opponents. To be honest, I still feel I'm best with Orks and that they are underrated as a faction.

I am glad you feel that way, I love my ork army. Though I feel they are terrible under powered and well rated considering how little they have and how little options you really have.

IMHO, despite what the fluff would have you believe, Orks are actually an army that reward you for being cunning, knowing the rules and using actual tactics. You don't get point-and-click uber units, and you're still better off using a CAD (or double CAD if points allow), but I maintain that they're a good army if you know what you're doing. You also have to avoid trying to playing the deathstar game - Ork characters work better as support for boyz.

Every army benefits from this, Orks benefit from this the same as everyone else. The difference is that Ork armies are unforgivable. If you make tactical mistakes you will lose. As far as Deathstars..your basically right, with the noted exception of Zhadsnark with DLS Biker Boss and Painboy on bike.

Here's what I miss about my Orks when I play using one of my other factions:

* Versatility. The combination of boyz and powerful characters helps them to deal with almost any threat on the tapletop. Want to kill horde infantry? Your boyz will gun them down and stomp them flat. Elite infantry, vehicles or monstrous creatures? Drown them in choppa attacks and finish them off with power klaws. Gargantuans and super-heavies? Make them waste their attacks killing boyz and then clobber them with power klaws. No need to worry about deep striking troops failing their reserve rolls or scattering away from their intended targets. Some other armies have access to lethal close combat troops, but IMO the only ones who can really match Orks for versatility are wulfen and *maybe* death company.

Yes and no, Ork boyz are versatile....ish. They really only have two functions, run forward and get into choppy range, or run forward and get into shooty range. Both have the same results, dead in droves.
Why don't orks worry about deep strikers failing reserve rolls or bad scattering?

SWs have Wulfen and TWC's which are way better then Orkz.

* Fire support. Yes, I am serious. In the games I've played, my flash gitz and bikers have been absolute stars. There is nothing like the look on a Tau player's face when he realises that greenskins have blasted his riptides off the table. I don't use lootas, but I know other players fear them.

The fact that you use Flash Gitz is surprising considering how terrible they are. First off, Flash Gitz require a transport or they die in droves. Secondy, while in that transport they are a sitting target because ork vehicles tend to explode....easily. Lastly, Flash Gitz suck, if you move you're losing your Git Findas and relying on 1 APD6 shot a turn actually hitting to do damage. And since they have a 24in range your going to be moving a lot. Warbikers I agree with. Without a doubt Warbikers are one of the top 1-3 units in the Ork codex.

* Battlewagons. Unequivocally the most points-efficient transport in the game. For 125 points you can get your boyz into combat or give your shooty units a great gunboat. You can end up spamming a lot of AV14 and the sight of so many wagons full of bloodthirsty Orks coming at them can be quite intimidating for your opponent. Opponents also tend to ignore them once the guys inside have disembarked, at which point you can ram vehicles (an automatic strength 9 hit is not bad at all), tank shock things off of objectives or grab cheeky line breakers.

Horribly False. Battlewagons are 110pts NAKED. With a ram and two weapons they are 125pts. While they are in fact AV 14/12/10, their fronts are tiny compared to their sides, in other words easy side targets. Also since they are OT they have +1 to explode. So that 125pts gives you an expensive death trap with no real firepower whose only purpose is to drop units off or be a mobile bunker. If they were still 90pts and Deff Rollas were still usable this would be true, but since that changed they are mediocre at best.

* Trukks. Yes, they're only armour 10. They're also fast, very cheap, easy to hide for the first turn and can gain obsec. Like wagons, they become low-priority targets once their passengers have left.

True. But the only way to use them to any kind of effect is to spam the hell out of them. a Unit of 3 Scatter Bikes have 12 Shots, 6 hits and 1/3rd chance to Pen 1/6 chance to glance. Put another way, 3 Scat bikes kill a Trukk Each turn AND have a 1/3rd chance to explode it killing the passengers inside. And as we all know, a dismounted unit of Trukk boyz caught in the open is an easy target. Short version: They are easily countered and removed from play without having much effect.

* Bikers. They're shooty, choppy and very hard to kill, especially if you stick a painboy in there.

They are very shooty, they aren't very choppy. 2 Boyz and a Nob W/PK cost on bike Cost 89pts have 9 TL S5 shots, nice. They have on the charge 8 S4 Attacks and 4 S9 AP2 attacks. If they lose a single biker btw they suffer a LD test and if they fail they are screwed. Worse, if they are charged themselves they are at 6 S3 attacks and 3 S8 AP2 attacks. I generally try to only charge with these guys when a unit is most likely to be killed by them in the 1st assault phase.

* The Megaboss with da lukky stikk. Absolutely devastating for the points he costs. He is almost unkillable by non-ap2 weapons, which saves him and the boyz and leads frustrated opponents to invest ridiculous amounts of fire into trying to kill him. Then you have all of those re-rollable S10 ap2 attacks. His only weakness is in challenges against uber-characters, which, to be honest, is fair enough for his low points cost and easily remedied by sacrificing a lesser character (e.g. a mek).

Very True, the MA Boss w/DLS Is a highlight, but the only way to use him is to put him in a unit of Boyz, otherwise his unit will get focus fired with AP2 and die in droves. I personally prefer giving a Warboss on Bike DLS since he can reroll Jink saves which functions as a Pseudo Invul from shooting attacks.

* Underestimation. Because they don't have any real cheese units, opponents often underestimate them until my boyz are smashing up their expensive units or my gitz are gunning them down!

This is probably the biggest benefit of the Ork Codex. NOBODY EXPECTS THE ORKISH INQUISITION!

What do you guys think?

I am Glad you asked. Are you ready?

Almost everything in the entire Codex is overpriced. We are the only faction that suffers from terrible faction special rules that actively work against us. As you pointed out we have no cheese units, we also have no top tier units either. So lets do a bit of a review of some of these units.

HQ's: Warboss is fine but expensive. Useless without his standard issue (25pt upgrade) Power Klaw. Has no invul save, has no access to one either.

Big Mek: Hot trash, Think Expensive Nob with access to random crap. KFF is ok but expensive, SAG is hilarious but useless most of the time. His real purpose is as a cheap HQ.

Painboy: Expensive Nob that gives 5+ FNP and has a 4+ poisoned weapon. Cant upgrade his armor without giving him a 25pt Bike.

Nobz: 18pts per model....They cost as much as a Warbiker without any of the benefits. They cost as much as 3 Boyz without any added bonuses beyond +1 attack, 1+ Strength and +1 wounds. In other words not cost effective.

Nob Bikerz: HOLY CHRIST WHY! 135pts for 3 models without any weapon upgrades. Translation 45pts a model. Give them a Powerklaw? and now your up to 160pts that are only marginally better then 2 Warbikers with a Nob/PK. (For 1 more point you could field 6 Warbikers with a Nob/PK more then twice the Fire power)

Boyz: Leadership/Durability issues. Mob rule really feths with them.

Grotz: objective holders...thats it. Don't expect them to do anything

BurnaBoyz: Expensive, no armor, no means of doing anything unless you buy a Trukk or BW for them.

TankBustas: Same as Burna Boyz but at least they get Tank hunter....even if they do die to a stiff breeze.

Flash Gitz: Already covered them but to reiterate; Too expensive, no armor, no LD, Guns are situational at best and garbage at worst. If they move they throw away their one advantage +1BS (Git Findaz)

MegaNobz: sadly one of our better units, basically Terminators with 2 Wounds, no invul and no weapon options beyond KillSaws or possibly KombiSkorchas that have a use.

Warbikers: They are one of our best units. only downside I see to them is that they are still just boyz.

Storm Boyz: Boyz with Jump Packs thats it. they are relatively well priced. I think they need to be 1-2pts cheaper though. if you suffer difficult terrain your going to lose the model because 6+ save. Also if you use their ability your going to be losing 1/6th of your unit each time.

Warbuggies: They aren't terrible they just lack Dakka. Good way to spam AV10 though.

Killa Kanz: EXPENSIVE, No use in CC anymore, No dakka worth mentioning beyond the Grotzooka which is incredibly short range on a Walker Platform..Ohh and the only vehicle i know of that suffers leadership problems.

Deff Dreadz: EXPENSIVE, No use in the shooting phase, barely able to hold its own in CC nowadays.

Lootas: Random shots, not enough dakka, No access to anything really. Give them Git Findaz would make them significantly better. Also they tend to die to a stiff breeze as well.

Mork/Gorkanought: EXPENSIVE, complete lack of Dakka for that many points. Slow as molasses (Giant walker without SHW rules) When you finally get it into CC (Which is a feat in itself) you only get a handful of attacks at WS4. Granted they will feth up whomever they hit.

Stompa: EXPENSIVE, Its Supa Gattler Jams by the 2nd shooting phase. It has no Invul and most importantly did i mention ITS FETHING EXPENSIVE. 770pts.

Mek Gunz: Lobbas, KMKs are the only weapons worth taking, no leadership.

We also suffer from having no formation bonuses that are worth much.
Leadership issues across the board
Mob rule being useless
No Ignores cover ranged weapons
No Long range Anti-Tank weapons that can do much to AV12+
We have no Invul Saves

I could keep going on but i'll leave it here

TLDR: Orks are not a mid tier army except when using our competitive units against people who don't bring competitive units.

 jreilly89 wrote:

One question: were you fighting standalone CSM, i.e. no Forgeworld or Daemon allies? If you were, then yeah, DE and CSM are a fairly even match. Otherwise, CSM would totally destroy DE. The Forgeworld options they can take are basically the same as SM, so things like Sicaran tanks and Fire Raptor gunships will murder your forces.

Yes, of course i meant CSM without allies, otherwise also DE with farseer, scatterbikes and a wraithknight allied can be very good. Also true about forgeworld, here in Italy is mostly not allowed. That's also fits the thread as orks have a bad reputation here because other than forgeworld are mostly not allowed fortifications, IA8 and multiple detachments. That means no zhadsnark, no vsg, no gun wagons, no discount stompas, no double CAD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Here's the thing, though: CSM competitive builds heavily rely on Toughness to make themselves stronger than their opponent. The Heldrake is by far their best answer to DE, but Lances are pretty solid against Maulerfiends, who really don't like getting shot by low-AP anti tank weaponry, and Poison is very good against spawn/nurgle bikers since it don't care that you're T6.

Right, the helldrake is the most scary thing a CSM player can bring against dark eldars as it can evaporate a full unit in a single turn and we don't have effective anti-air as our flyers are not very good and we have no skyfire other than razorwings or the bomber. Two of them would be an absolute hell to play against.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

HQ's: Warboss is fine but expensive. Useless without his standard issue (25pt upgrade) Power Klaw. Has no invul save, has no access to one either.

I basically agree with all your points with the exception of this one, a warboss in megarmor with da lucky stikk costs 125 points, 135 on a warbike. That doesn't seem that expensive to me as he doesn't ride alone but with boyz or bikes so is not really vulnerable. Against something that has ap2 and initiative you can accept or refuse that challange with a nob, mek or a painboy. The warboss becomes vulnerable when his entire unit is wiped out, before that is free to strike is 4/5 s10 ap2 re-rollable attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

SWs have Wulfen and TWC's which are way better then Orkz.

You can't compare them to boyz, they're elites or fast attacks, compare blood claws or grey hunters with ork boyz. I play both armies and i think orks troops are better than SW ones. Blood claws and grey hunters are decent only because they can have two great transports, drop pods or a stormwolf.

 Blackie wrote:
I basically agree with all your points with the exception of this one, a warboss in megarmor with da lucky stikk costs 125 points, 135 on a warbike. That doesn't seem that expensive to me as he doesn't ride alone but with boyz or bikes so is not really vulnerable. Against something that has ap2 and initiative you can accept or refuse that challange with a nob, mek or a painboy. The warboss becomes vulnerable when his entire unit is wiped out, before that is free to strike is 4/5 s10 ap2 re-rollable attacks.

You can't compare them to boyz, they're elites or fast attacks, compare blood claws or grey hunters with ork boyz. I play both armies and i think orks troops are better than SW ones. Blood claws and grey hunters are decent only because they can have two great transports, drop pods or a stormwolf.

A warboss isn't vulnerable I never said that. But if you put him with Meganobz he is vulnerable to AP2 weapons because even if you Look out sir you just lost a 40pt Meganob (assuming S8+)

In a warbiker squad hes safer because of Jink but Ignores cover with Ap4 can do some damage.

We really need better armor/Invuls

As far as the Wulfen/TWC thing, I wasn't comparing them to boyz. I was comparing them to our ENTIRE CODEX. They eat pretty much everything we have, the only way to fight them with orks is to shoot them to death which isn't easy

 mrhappyface wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
[
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.....

lol you are a madman if you are using CSMcultists like an ork player should use boyz or visa versa.
Cultists are similar to grots. They are the kind of unit nobody really cares about and only have one purpose in the game -> standing in the way / just being there.
They are disposable blockers, their stats do not really matter al that much and are priced / valued this way.

Now ork boyz are something else they are the supposed to be the core of the ork army, and actually have to be good at their job.
Ork boyz are similar to Genesteler hybrid equivalents not CSM cultist.
You and others are free to make a fool out of yourself by claiming that orks boyz are better in certain scenario's but we all know that no one is taking ork boyz unless they really have to as a power fist carrying device while the same amount of points spend on genesestealer hybrids are stuff of nightmares for many players.

Ork boyz body slamming almost anything that they get into cc with must just be my imagination then. I am sure every IK, tank, biker unit, chaos lord, daemon prince, etc. I have seen fall to boys didn't actually happen.

Hmmm seeing as you are referring to biker unit before Chaos Lord and DP, I assume you mean Nurgle Bikers correct?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
[
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.....

lol you are a madman if you are using CSMcultists like an ork player should use boyz or visa versa.
Cultists are similar to grots. They are the kind of unit nobody really cares about and only have one purpose in the game -> standing in the way / just being there.
They are disposable blockers, their stats do not really matter al that much and are priced / valued this way.

Now ork boyz are something else they are the supposed to be the core of the ork army, and actually have to be good at their job.
Ork boyz are similar to Genesteler hybrid equivalents not CSM cultist.
You and others are free to make a fool out of yourself by claiming that orks boyz are better in certain scenario's but we all know that no one is taking ork boyz unless they really have to as a power fist carrying device while the same amount of points spend on genesestealer hybrids are stuff of nightmares for many players.

Ork boyz body slamming almost anything that they get into cc with must just be my imagination then. I am sure every IK, tank, biker unit, chaos lord, daemon prince, etc. I have seen fall to boys didn't actually happen.

Hmmm seeing as you are referring to biker unit before Chaos Lord and DP, I assume you mean Nurgle Bikers correct?

No, space marine bikes.

Well putting the warboss with meganobz is always a bad choice and wulfen are among the most powerful units in 40k, probably the best close combat unit in the entire game. Also SW only have those wulfen, TWC, rune priests, drop pods and maybe the stormwolf that are really good. SW are better than orks but far from the best armies, they have some amazing melee units but no decent fire power and not many models on the board. I agree that the lack of invulns in close combat is among the orks issues.

E: Ah forget it. Sorry, got my info wrong. Tomb blades rock, but you are capped at how many you can take in a decurion wereas orks can take bikers as troops if they want.

Well very few people play competitive orks lists so they're wrong considered by many players. About necrons and tomb blades, no one is going to field more than 6 jetbikes in every competitive necrons list, whiel you have see 20+ bikes, eventually some with FNP, in many competitive orks lists, all with obj sec.

 slip wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 slip wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 slip wrote:
That's one aspect of one unit. My list is zhad, lvl 2 weirdboy, 6x bikers, 6x bustas in trukk, 3x bully MANz. I can scout or outflank zhad and 3x bikers. Even if you maxed tomblades and spent all game blastin bikes you probably wouldn't get them all and there's way bigger problems. Not that I'm trashing necrons, they're the ork hard counter, but I'm more terrified of pylons, wraiths, and what character is gonna eat your overlords challenge.

Tomb Blades are AP4 and Ignores Cover. You said Tomb Blades were scared of Bikers because of that aspect.

I don't actually think you've played against Necrons.

Quote it. I'm pretty sure I was referring to necrons in general.

I've played enough to know that that my entire army can cover the range of your weapons in a turn and I'm fast enough and numerous enough to pick who fights where, to the point that one round of shooting from generally 1-3 units isn't gonna make the difference.

E: like are you running a decurion or not? How's the rest of that gauss weaponry doing against the bikers? Yes, having jink against necrons is useful. Especially when playing with trukks that need to be screened. Their value is undeniable.

"Vs Necrons Bikers shine with their 3+ jink and Zhad's 2+ jink"
This can be interpreted in a few ways.
1. You think they shine vs Tomb Blades
2. You've never seen Tomb Blades
3. You've never been charged by anything, which is silly.

Also I'm perfectly content with someone rushing after me because that just means I can potentially charge against you myself. I don't care about your AWESOME 3+ jink save. I can shoot what I can and charge you as well. I run minimum 13 Tomb Blades in my lists.

So you couldn't actually find the quote of me referring tomb blades there eh? Seems kinda like your manufacturing this whole thing. Or it can be interpreted the following ways:

1. You see tomb blades where there is none
2. You think the entire necron army is tomb blades
3. You can't count point values

Are bikers useful against anyone if flamethrowers exists in the game? Did you answer any of my statements?

You want to compare tomb blades to warbikers squarely totally taking out the entire context I was using fine. 3 groups of three tomb blades with upgrades is the same cost as 27 warbikers. You use 13? I can take ~40 bikers or 30 and zhad and have a full legal list lol. I don't care about 26 ignore cover shots lol. You'll take out < a third of the 40, and then they'll wreck you in combat because zhad can move as fast as the tomb blades can move one time but he can all game, 36", and the other bikers move 24". If it's three units of tomb blades you're running, the most you could take out per turn is three units lol. I got at least 13. How long ya got til combat?

You're a take all comers list patting himself on the back for taking a missile launcher in case somebody runs a tank and figuring it'll be okay enough for 12. Sorry man, you just don't know anything about orks or MSU strategy.

What? Where the hell did you get those numbers? 9 tomb-blades cost198pts, which is roughly eleven warbikers. So if you cheat your oponent that many points i'ts obvious you'll do fine.

Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.

E: I did calculate the point values for the tomb blades wrong on double checking.

 slip wrote:
Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.

I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 slip wrote:
Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.

I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.

Yes but no one is gonna field more than 6 tomb blades, ork bikers are troops so you'll always see 20+ in competitive lists.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 slip wrote:
Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.

I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.

My bad!