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Elessar wrote:Fair enough, an emotive issue I suppose, but it doesn't change the fact that we made them that way. It's hard to have a set of societal beliefs that respect life when everyone is poor and dying, while you are aware how much better life is for Americans and Western Europeans.

We made them that way? Oh yes, I remember! Congress enacted the "Screw Them Act of 1983". How could I forget!
I think when you accept lawlessness you become beyond help. If they came together and formed a political movement that stopped corruption and crime, the US would practically throw money at them. We did not make them this way, they spat on order and now live in the chaos.

Yeah, they pretty much dug their own grave there. We've been to somalia before I think. Wasn't Black Hawk Down based on that?

Somalia is one more instance of a poor effort to draw post-colonial borders. There would have been tribal skirmishes regardless of our choices. However, our mode of interceding in those skirmishes (pretending there was/is a Somali state) only made the problem much, much worse.

dogma wrote:Somalia is one more instance of a poor effort to draw post-colonial borders. There would have been tribal skirmishes regardless of our choices. However, our mode of interceding in those skirmishes (pretending there was/is a Somali state) only made the problem much, much worse.

Sadly, not all Americans are as willing to accept the failings of their country's foreign policies as you dogma, although the clue is in your name
Gen. Lee losing, your comment strikes me as very ignorant. Since when has the US thrown money at the enemies of oppression in Africa? Did it support Nelson Mandela before he came out of prison? Did the Bush administration help force Zanu-PF out total control of Zimbabwe? Is Nigeria a peaceful nation? Has a humanitarian crisis in Darfur been avoided? The UK is as complicit as anyone else in these failing, perhaps even more so in some cases, but we don't pretend none of it is our fault.

We gave $10BN for Aids treatment. Thats fighting oppression. Frankly, Africa is Europe's albatross, not ours. Fix your mess Europe.

Elessar wrote:

dogma wrote:Somalia is one more instance of a poor effort to draw post-colonial borders. There would have been tribal skirmishes regardless of our choices. However, our mode of interceding in those skirmishes (pretending there was/is a Somali state) only made the problem much, much worse.

Sadly, not all Americans are as willing to accept the failings of their country's foreign policies as you dogma, although the clue is in your name
Gen. Lee losing, your comment strikes me as very ignorant. Since when has the US thrown money at the enemies of oppression in Africa? Did it support Nelson Mandela before he came out of prison? Did the Bush administration help force Zanu-PF out total control of Zimbabwe? Is Nigeria a peaceful nation? Has a humanitarian crisis in Darfur been avoided? The UK is as complicit as anyone else in these failing, perhaps even more so in some cases, but we don't pretend none of it is our fault.

I am not a history buff, I admit.
But how many successful and peaceful political movements have there been in Africa? Mandela crushed the leaders of rival tribes before he became the figurehead of peace (and anti-white policies). We don’t get involved in intertribal war. But if a country acted like a unified country, we would help it. We helped Ethiopia. We would help Egypt if it needed us. We help a lot of countries. But we won’t help in tribal wars.

I couldn't resist the off-topic discussion. America (and any country for that matter) will intervene when it is percieved to be in their best interest, good or bad. Different administrations make up their own policies in this regard. Sometimes this intervention can lead to bad things(Somalia) and sometimes it can lead to good things(Desert Storm). That's the way of things.


Now back to religion.


GG

Frazzled wrote: Frankly, Africa is Europe's albatross, not ours. Fix your mess Europe.

Because you "grew" all your slaves at home on your prairie farms right ? You didn't deport them thousands of miles to the other side of the world in vast quantities at all. Ever.

People are actually going to try and argue that the rape and plunder of Africa of both its people and other natural resources hasn't had long term repercussions on the countries there ? Or given "western" countries immense head starts in terms of economics due to the incredible source of cheap labour we had ? Seriously ? How well do you think our countries would be doing if several generations of our best and brightest were forcibily deported to go and work for free in another country.

We made them that way? Oh yes, I remember! Congress enacted the "Screw Them Act of 1983". How could I forget!

I know it's astonishing but sometimes the causes or affects of things might not be due to things that have happened in your own lifetime but your country ( mine too) is still responsible for.

I am not a history buff, I admit.

Clearly. Glad to see that "Black History Month" has been so effective, still more "PC" bollocks no doubt eh ?

reds8n wrote:

Frazzled wrote: Frankly, Africa is Europe's albatross, not ours. Fix your mess Europe.

Because you "grew" all your slaves at home on your prairie farms right ? You didn't deport them thousands of miles to the other side of the world in vast quantities at all. Ever.

People are actually going to try and argue that the rape and plunder of Africa of both its people and other natural resources hasn't had long term repercussions on the countries there ? Or given "western" countries immense head starts in terms of economics due to the incredible source of cheap labour we had ? Seriously ? How well do you think our countries would be doing if several generations of our best and brightest were forcibily deported to go and work for free in another country.

Actually after the intital part of the 1800's yep. Before that they were sold BY YOU EUROPEANS. It wasn't until the 20th century that YOU EUROPEANS lost your colonies and couldn't split the entire continent into little chunks. Further, the trade in and out fo the region predominantly benefits YOU EUROPEANS. So YOU EUROPEANS should handle it. Seriously, grow a pair and do something for once. Britain has a fine navy and fine tradition of properly dealing with pirates. France has a good military. heck they still have the Foreign Legion-major buttkickers. Germany has beer. Whats the problem?

Hey, slavery was a problem in africa way before europeans even got there. Who do you think brought the slaves to the europeans? No european was crazy enough to go into the jungles so other tribes enslaved other tribes and brought them to the coast. The dutch then shipped them overseas, America never shipped them, europeans did.

Talking about history, during the civil war, one side had a lot of support from europe(especially england). That side was the CSA(Confederate States of America) you know the guys who wanted slavery.

England gave warships to the CSA and France sent cash so, you're at fault there.

America has been in africa a couple of times, ever hear of the barbary wars? Liberia and ethiopia were founded by america. We went to somalia and they killed our soldiers, took their bodies and cut them into little bits to play baseball with. We tried to help, but they obviously didn't want us there.

reds8n wrote:

Gen Lee Losing wrote:I am not a history buff, I admit.

Clearly. Glad to see that "Black History Month" has been so effective, still more "PC" bollocks no doubt eh ?

Whew! For a moment there I was worried that you might throw out some facts! Luckily for me you just made a snide remark!
That was close!

And I would hardly say that the "loss of the best and the brightest" condemns all of Africa for centuries later. We lost a lot of our "best and brightest" in the 2 world wars helping other countries. We seem to survive with the next generation. Odd, huh?

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:We lost a lot of our "best and brightest" in the 2 world wars helping other countries. We seem to survive with the next generation. Odd, huh?

We didn't even come close to losing all our best and brightest in WWII. We lost a lot of brave young men to be sure, but nothing close to what some of our allies lost. We also didn't just jump in to save the day out of altruism either.

Ahtman wrote:

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:We lost a lot of our "best and brightest" in the 2 world wars helping other countries. We seem to survive with the next generation. Odd, huh?

We didn't even come close to losing all our best and brightest in WWII. We lost a lot of brave young men to be sure, but nothing close to what some of our allies lost. We also didn't just jump in to save the day out of altruism either.

I agree with you. But this argument is about Africa being the hole it is because of our "wicked past" of stealing their best and brightest. Of course, I think the best and brightest were the ones that avoided capture to have children. So that argument is crap (the best and brightest, not your statement).

Seriously, America and Europe, here's a ruler. Drop both of your pants and we'll have this argument over right away.



So, religion?

I'm Jewish and proud of it =P

Almost everyone at my local games workshop knows that so they know why I never show up to all those Saturday events since I'm Orthodox Religious.

orkishlyorkish wrote:I'm Jewish and proud of it =P

Almost everyone at my local games workshop knows that so they know why I never show up to all those Saturday events since I'm religious.

Hats off to you sir! You have faith AND you live it! More people need to be like you!

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
Whew! For a moment there I was worried that you might throw out some facts! Luckily for me you just made a snide remark!
That was close!

Like the myriad of facts you listed to support your "argument". Oh...wait....

And I would hardly say that the "loss of the best and the brightest" condemns all of Africa for centuries later. We lost a lot of our "best and brightest" in the 2 world wars helping other countries. We seem to survive with the next generation. Odd, huh?

You really don't think that losing your best and brightest has an economic affect ? hmm..maybe, now let's also factor in the huge economic advantage that headstart that the slave trade gave us ( you know, like I mentioned) and then explain how nations are supposed to compete on the same level as us. You do know that in Africa this trade is referred to their "holocaust" and they lost millions of people. The USA and the UK lost.. what maybe 1 million between us in WW II. There's no comparison.

But seeing as bills passed in 1983 wouldn't be relevant I guess WW II wouldn't be either ?

If you really need me to talk explain every single little detail and repercussion of a sentence I can but this will take a while, and given your general eloquence and past conversations I thought you were sharp enough to twig this. My apologies.


Slavery was indeed a problem in Africa, but you'll note that any wealth produced by said practise--things like crops etc-- would also benefit ...Africans. far more so than us taking the "workforce" away to the other side of the world for our benefit. It was also a damn sight more possible to get home as well if you escaped or were freed.

Britain can't really do anything in Africa precisely because of our gakky past there and the horrible things we do, even a lot of the charity stuff we send over is apparently still viewed with suspicion and an attempt to "reclaim" a place e never had a right to in the first place. Puts us in a really awkward situation especially over $%^&* like Mugabe who are killing and ruining their own country and we.. well, we just sit there saying how bad it is.

Plus... given out commitments elsewhere in the world militarily I'm genuinely not sure we'd be capable of doing much outside of a full on war footing.

Hmm..reading all that back that's much snarkier than I'd intended. Apologies, crappy day.

[/hijack]

To pull the original topic and the Africa bit together, I offer this.

Bad things happen. When my granddad was in WWII in Africa (British Army) he picked up body parts of people he called friends. He came home to England and everything was in smoldering ruins. All of Europe was robbed of a generation. It was very sad. But Europe applied itself and got out of the hole. They did not sit and wallow in self pity. They worked.

I believe that mankind is here to grow into better beings. Bad things happen. God is not at fault, but he allows man to be evil to other men to allow circumstances for heroism. If everything was lukewarm, it would result in a bunch of zombies. We need adversity to grow spiritually. If we succumb to selfishness we remain as children.

Bad things happen. We need to get ourselves out of it honestly. We should not just shoot others and hold them hostage for easy big bucks.

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:To pull the original topic and the Africa bit together, I offer this.

Bad things happen. When my granddad was in WWII in Africa (British Army) he picked up body parts of people he called friends. He came home to England and everything was in smoldering ruins. All of Europe was robbed of a generation. It was very sad. But Europe applied itself and got out of the hole. They did not sit and wallow in self pity. They worked.

I believe that mankind is here to grow into better beings. Bad things happen. God is not at fault, but he allows man to be evil to other men to allow circumstances for heroism. If everything was lukewarm, it would result in a bunch of zombies. We need adversity to grow spiritually. If we succumb to selfishness we remain as children.

Bad things happen. We need to get ourselves out of it honestly. We should not just shoot others and hold them hostage for easy big bucks.

Thanks for putting Religion back in the frame, but nonetheless, Europe didn't 'apply themselves' - the US funded our rebuilding, because we were your shield against the USSR. Given the choice between helping democratic governments back up in Western Europe, or watching us turn to Stalin's aid, you chose the former. Because there's no threat of that in Africa, you let it go.

Frazzled - wtf? What are the puppies about? And that $10 Billion would go down a lot easier if you didn't price African farmers out of growing food for their people, rather than coffee or heroin. Or if your administration criticised the Pope's comments about condoms not preventing AIDS.

As for the US not entering tribal disputes - WHAT?!? Try Israel. Holocaust guilt is no reason to get involved.

As for "more people need to be like you" living their religion, please see earlier Bible quotes by me. Ignoring my points doesn't nullify them. As a moral text, the Bible is at best patchy.
d
EDIT: Oh, and as for why we gave the CSA cash? If they'd won, what would've happened? No more USA, that's what. Three North American states, Canada (British colony), CSA (British ally), and the Northern States...a bit outnumbered, and needing friends, Britain would've been there for them.

Last I saw Israel was not in Africa.

Here's just a few former colonies Europe left behind
Congo
South Africa
Egypt
Zimbabwe
Morocco
Chad
Ethiopia
Somalia

Ok all of Africa.

Frazzled wrote:Last I saw Israel was not in Africa.

Here's just a few former colonies Europe left behind
Congo
South Africa
Egypt
Zimbabwe
Morocco
Chad
Ethiopia
Somalia

Ok all of Africa.

That's because Europe owned the WORLD. There are no continents you won't find former colonies in, except Antarctica.

Also tribal dispute =/= Africa

EDIT: Oh, and we'd have happily kept said colonies, except for US intervention (in the case of Britain at least)

Looks like they (Isreal) are on the African plate to me... but What do I know : )?

Oh god... you did not just argue that Israel is in Africa because it's on the Africa plate did you?

This thread is spiraling the drain.

Yea he did, and yes its spiralling. A cookie to the forst person with a good whirlpool/toilet flush!

Ozy, care to comment on my Bible quotes from earlier today? Please?

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
Bad things happen. When my granddad was in WWII in Africa (British Army) he picked up body parts of people he called friends. He came home to England and everything was in smoldering ruins. All of Europe was robbed of a generation. It was very sad. But Europe applied itself and got out of the hole. They did not sit and wallow in self pity. They worked.

What happens when your labor is not likely to produce any tangible benefit? For example, I know people that are 100k in debt due to student loans. They can't get the jobs they were trained for due to the current economic climate, and the jobs they can get will not even permit them to make any form of minimum payment. Bankruptcy isn't even an option because student loans are exempt from bankruptcy. So why should they bother with a job they will certainly detest if all they can be assured of doing is more of what they detest?

Elessar wrote:Ozy, care to comment on my Bible quotes from earlier today? Please?

Not really. Sorry, I didn't find it fascinating or interesting.

I'm having a better time ridiculing this dick-measuri... I mean discussion of whether the US or Europe is bigger at fault for fething up Africa.

Ozymandias wrote:

Elessar wrote:Ozy, care to comment on my Bible quotes from earlier today? Please?

Not really. Sorry, I didn't find it fascinating or interesting.

I'm having a better time ridiculing this dick-measuri... I mean discussion of whether the US or Europe is bigger at fault for fething up Africa.

Fair enough.

Just so we're clear, I'm in no way suggesting the US is more to blame, just that its not all Europe's fault, and that some individual circumstances are more the fault of the US than of Europe. /