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Black Blow Fly wrote:The staff is not described as single handed so no +1A. It seems like many in the camp for +1A are conveniently ignoring this fact.

G

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020000&prodId=prod1060036


He's holding it in one hand, on the official model.

Its especially amusing to see someone claiming to have talked to Phil kelly about the staff and claiming it to be two handed, since the one and only source of data we have on the handedness of the staff actually comes from a battle report where Phil used Eldrad. In that WD report (back when the players actually wrote a few of the reports, Phil wrote the eldar side of it) eldrad was described as getting two attacks for multiple turns of the combat, actually managing to finish off a badly wounded Abaddon.

Now WD is by no means a good source of information. In this case we do however have the author of the Eldar codex himself writing about how eldrad uses his weapons in cc. And eldrad used his staff and his pistol to receive an extra attack in cc.

So the indication is that the author of the codex believes that the staff is a one handed weapon. Not much to go on, but it is better than no data at all. The rules for +1 attack change from version 4 to version 5, but the handedness of the staff should stay the same at least.




Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Its especially amusing to see someone claiming to have talked to Phil kelly about the staff and claiming it to be two handed, since the one and only source of data we have on the handedness of the staff actually comes from a battle report where Phil used Eldrad. In that WD report (back when the players actually wrote a few of the reports, Phil wrote the eldar side of it) eldrad was described as getting two attacks for multiple turns of the combat, actually managing to finish off a badly wounded Abaddon.

Now WD is by no means a good source of information. In this case we do however have the author of the Eldar codex himself writing about how eldrad uses his weapons in cc. And eldrad used his staff and his pistol to receive an extra attack in cc.

So the indication is that the author of the codex believes that the staff is a one handed weapon. Not much to go on, but it is better than no data at all. The rules for +1 attack change from version 4 to version 5, but the handedness of the staff should stay the same at least.

Phil Kelly also thinks models with the Mark of The Wulfen get to use Thunderhammers. I wouldn't listen to a word he says.

Sasori wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:The staff is not described as single handed so no +1A. It seems like many in the camp for +1A are conveniently ignoring this fact.

G

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020000&prodId=prod1060036


He's holding it in one hand, on the official model.

Best arguement eva!



See that 1 handed sniper rifle? He gets +1 Attack with it and his combat blade.

That is one pimping single handed sniper rifle! Hey, how about the Marine models where you can make them to hold a Bolter in 1 hand and a Bolt Pistol in the other, they get +1A too!

Deminyn wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:The staff is not described as single handed so no +1A. It seems like many in the camp for +1A are conveniently ignoring this fact.

G

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020000&prodId=prod1060036


He's holding it in one hand, on the official model.

Best arguement eva!



See that 1 handed sniper rifle? He gets +1 Attack with it and his combat blade.

I wasn't aware that sniper rifles were a CC weapon, unlike the witchblade and staff.

Sasori wrote:

Deminyn wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:The staff is not described as single handed so no +1A. It seems like many in the camp for +1A are conveniently ignoring this fact.
G

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020000&prodId=prod1060036
He's holding it in one hand, on the official model.

Best arguement eva!
[for img see above]
See that 1 handed sniper rifle? He gets +1 Attack with it and his combat blade.

I wasn't aware that sniper rifles were a CC weapon, unlike the witchblade and staff.

Ack! You are so totally true! You, like, totally rocked my argument and I am, so, like, totally wrong. Dude, like, what was I thinking? Really! Like a cc sniper wpn! Dude!

Deminyn wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Deminyn wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:The staff is not described as single handed so no +1A. It seems like many in the camp for +1A are conveniently ignoring this fact.
G

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020000&prodId=prod1060036
He's holding it in one hand, on the official model.

Best arguement eva!
[for img see above]
See that 1 handed sniper rifle? He gets +1 Attack with it and his combat blade.

I wasn't aware that sniper rifles were a CC weapon, unlike the witchblade and staff.

Ack! You are so totally true! You, like, totally rocked my argument and I am, so, like, totally wrong. Dude, like, what was I thinking? Really! Like a cc sniper wpn! Dude!

There is really no need to act like a jerk.

Yer right, I was just having a bit of humour at your expense since I, from my first post, considered this whole thread a joke and it seemed you took me serious when I suggested that a sniper weapon could be a 1 handed weapon. On a separate note, how a miniature is modeled only matters for LoS, weapon mounts, access points, cover and armour facing. (This probably isn't exhaustive) but never does it validate calling a weapon 1 handed. I'm sure there is a bandage sister with her 2 handed chain sword in one hand, or a relic blade in one hand for a vanguard squad. In fact, I'll go look for one.

Deminyn wrote:Yer right, I was just having a bit of humour at your expense since I, from my first post, considered this whole thread a joke and it seemed you took me serious when I suggested that a sniper weapon could be a 1 handed weapon. On a separate note, how a miniature is modeled only matters for LoS, weapon mounts, access points, cover and armour facing. (This probably isn't exhaustive) but never does it validate calling a weapon 1 handed. I'm sure there is a bandage sister with her 2 handed chain sword in one hand, or a relic blade in one hand for a vanguard squad. In fact, I'll go look for one.

Well, it was a bit fun, since there doesn't really seem to be any evidence pointing to it being a one hand, or a two hand weapon. figured if it's modeled that way, I'll play it that way /shrug.

-Necron Lord with Warscythe (I don't know if it's 2 handed in the rules though)
-lol, do the tau even have access to ccw ?
-Why yes they can, Tau etheral model w honour staff (a 2 handed weapon being held in 1 hand)
-Njal storm caller wielding a 1 handed weapon in 2 hands?
-Emp Champ (1 hand for a wpn that can be 1 or 2) so this isn't really a good example
-There are warlocks with the singing spear in 1 hand (a 2 handed weapon), then warlocks with a witchblade or a 2handed witchblade... (a 1 handed weapon)
-Dark Eldar Incubi holding a 2 hander in 1 hand
-Odd thing I just realized, All standard bearers are carrying a standard that doesn't take up any hands...
-1/2 the plague bearers 1 hand, other 1/2 use 2 hands...


Personally, he's in the same pose as the warlock with the spear, so I'd say the same # of hands as the spear.

Honestly if a weapon isn't said to be a one or two handed weapon it should be played as a one handed weapon since two handed is actually a penalty.

BlueDagger wrote:Honestly if a weapon isn't said to be a one or two handed weapon it should be played as a one handed weapon since two handed is actually a penalty.

Not always. The Axe Morkai is S8 when used two handed. Hardly a penalty.

Gwar! wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Honestly if a weapon isn't said to be a one or two handed weapon it should be played as a one handed weapon since two handed is actually a penalty.

Not always. The Axe Morkai is S8 when used two handed. Hardly a penalty.

I'm sure he meant in most cases. I think we can agree that the Axe Morkai is more of the exception, than the rule when it comes to two hand weapons.

Sasori wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Honestly if a weapon isn't said to be a one or two handed weapon it should be played as a one handed weapon since two handed is actually a penalty.

Not always. The Axe Morkai is S8 when used two handed. Hardly a penalty.

I'm sure he meant in most cases. I think we can agree that the Axe Morkai is more of the exception, than the rule when it comes to two hand weapons.

And The Black Sword?
Two examples right there, so I very much doubt that the Axe Morkai is an Exception.

Alright then, you win Gwar.

Now spin the wheel to see how MANY internets you have won.


*Internets are awarded upon answering a skill testing question. Available for pick up only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlueDagger wrote:Honestly if a weapon isn't said to be a one or two handed weapon it should be played as a one handed weapon since two handed is actually a penalty.

Most people believe that, if a rule is ambiguous, you play the LEAST advantageous of the two, not the MOST.

I'm failing to understand why him getting 1 more attack sparks a giant rules debate based on the fact of 'he has three weapons etc etc *didn't bother reading the rest of the whining, I got the basic jist of it*

He has 2 hands. He has a pistol, a witchblade and his staff, that requires 2 hands.

Choose to use the pistol/witchblade combo, yeah why not +1 attack? pistol and power weapon, slugga and choppa do the same thing, it's not under the terms of the powerfist/lightning claw/thunderhammer schpiel of needing both of the same weapon to get the bonus as I recall.

He wants to use the staff? Fine, stuck with just 1 attack then unless he finds a way to coddle the staff between his legs as he swings his sword and pistol around pelvic thrusting enemies to death.

Deminyn wrote:

Most people believe that, if a rule is ambiguous, you play the LEAST advantageous of the two, not the MOST.

Right, but from what I recall (and correct me if I'm wrong because I don't have my codices in front of me), every two-handed weapon says:

"This is a two-handed weapon that. . ."

That would preclude the fact that if it doesn't have that rule, it is a one-handed weapon. You don't see power swords or powerfists or sluggas or pistols or anything say "one-handed weapon". They simply say CCW.

Eldrad's staff does not have a rule stating that is a two-handed weapon, as most if not all do, therefore it defaults to a one-handed weapon.

The power sword on my marine sergeant doesn't say it's not a two-handed weapon and that would be LEAST advantageous for me. Does that mean that the power sword is two-handed?

Alright guys, there are alerts coming off this thread, so I just want to remind everyone to keep their cool.

The biggest reason for the furor in this thread is that many of the arguements being raised would affect other models in the game as well. The most obvious other model is Marneus Calgar and his multiple weapons, but there are others.

From a more recent codex there is the SW runic weapons. And the particular unique staff of the stormcaller. If they arent one handed weapons then a runic priest has the option of taking two two-handed weapons?

So the discussion here touches on many other similar model questions in the game.


Sliggoth

Tri wrote:Very few weapons state they are single handed ... chainswords are never mentioned as being 1 or 2 handed ... in fact in the newer books the only time, that the number of hands is mention, is when the weapon is two handed. So unless people like the idea of all weapons being two handed unless stated otherwise, i would assume that they are all one handed unless stated otherwise.

It's obvious that certain weapons such as chainswords and pistols are single handed. Unfortunately the staff is very unique and +1A for this weapon is a big advantage. From a strictly background POV it's obvious that Eldrad is not a close combat monster, the to wound on 2+ was thrown as a perk. Eldrad is a master of psychic warfare.

The batrep mentioned is several years old and was played using the prior CSM codex... Let's face it, we all know that the rules can get all mushed up during a batrep, it happens all the time... Plus batreps are by no means official.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:

it's obvious that certain weapons such as chainswords and pistols are single handed. Unfortunately the staff is very unique and +1A for this weapon is a big advantage.

G

How is it "obvious"? Please provide a rules quote.

Chainswords and pistols are not defined by the rules as single-handed weapons. By arguing that they are, you are accepting the claim that weapons are assumed to be single-handed unless specifically called two-handed. You can't have it both ways.

You yourself have stated the rules for pistols and chainswords, I don't see any reason to repeat that. I can't think of any instance in the rules where it's explicitly stated that if a weapon is not cited as either single or double handed that it automatically defaults to single handed.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:You yourself have stated the rules for pistols and chainswords, I don't see any reason to repeat that. I can't think of any instance in the rules where it's explicitly stated that if a weapon is not cited as either single or double handed that it automatically defaults to single handed.

G

Agreed.

And on the eldrad topic: witchblade + pistol (+1A)
Staff + pistol (+1A if the staff is one handed, none if it's two (we don't seem to have established this yet))
Staff + witchblade (none)

Black Blow Fly wrote:You yourself have stated the rules for pistols and chainswords, I don't see any reason to repeat that. I can't think of any instance in the rules where it's explicitly stated that if a weapon is not cited as either single or double handed that it automatically defaults to single handed.

G

There are also no rules to state that at CC weapon is two-handed unless it is mentioned specifically as such.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:

it's obvious that certain weapons such as chainswords and pistols are single handed. Unfortunately the staff is very unique and +1A for this weapon is a big advantage.

G

How is it "obvious"? Please provide a rules quote.

BeRzErKeR.. Are you really going to argue that a pistol is a two handed weapon? Really?? Im sorry but this idea is nothing more then grasping at straws to stay alive at this point.

jp400 wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:

it's obvious that certain weapons such as chainswords and pistols are single handed. Unfortunately the staff is very unique and +1A for this weapon is a big advantage.

G

How is it "obvious"? Please provide a rules quote.

BeRzErKeR.. Are you really going to argue that a pistol is a two handed weapon? Really?? Im sorry but this idea is nothing more then grasping at straws to stay alive at this point.

Nonsense. In fact, if we're going to start applying common sense and saying things are "obvious", I might mention that in the real world, pistols are almost always fired two-handed.

But regardless, I am not arguing, and have never argued, that pistols are two-handed. What I am saying is that they are never DEFINED in the rules as a one-handed weapon. So if you're going to say that Eldrad's staff is two-handed, I can say, with just as much rules backing, that a pistol is two-handed.

Kind of silly, no?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

jp400 wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:

it's obvious that certain weapons such as chainswords and pistols are single handed. Unfortunately the staff is very unique and +1A for this weapon is a big advantage.

G

How is it "obvious"? Please provide a rules quote.

BeRzErKeR.. Are you really going to argue that a pistol is a two handed weapon? Really?? Im sorry but this idea is nothing more then grasping at straws to stay alive at this point.

Nonsense. In fact, if we're going to start applying common sense and saying things are "obvious", I might mention that in the real world, pistols are almost always fired two-handed.

But regardless, I am not arguing, and have never argued, that pistols are two-handed. What I am saying is that they are never DEFINED in the rules as a one-handed weapon. So if you're going to say that Eldrad's staff is two-handed, I can say, with just as much rules backing, that a pistol is two-handed.

Kind of silly, no?

jp400 wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:

it's obvious that certain weapons such as chainswords and pistols are single handed. Unfortunately the staff is very unique and +1A for this weapon is a big advantage.

G

How is it "obvious"? Please provide a rules quote.

BeRzErKeR.. Are you really going to argue that a pistol is a two handed weapon? Really?? Im sorry but this idea is nothing more then grasping at straws to stay alive at this point.

BeRzErKeR is completely right. If has nothing to do with the fact that we are stating that a pistol is a two handed weapon, but is merely point out that if the rules don't define the weapon is a two handed weapon you can't assume that it is one.

The rules do not define it as a two handed weapon, so placing the restriction of a two handed weapon upon it is absurd. It is liked to telling a BA assault squad player that his squad doesn't get +1 attack for his chainsword/pistol because you think his chain sword would require two hands. See how that would go over.

This thread might as well be closed on the facts that has been pointed out a few times now lead to a stalemate on the debate.
- Eldrad has 3 single handed CCW and the rules do not cover this situation