Chapterhouse Lawsuit - Settlement reached, Appeals withdrawn - Pg 234! Chapterhouse to re-open store

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**Aerethan**

Does GW have art of JUST the shoulderpad? Or are you asserting that parts of a piece of art can be copyrighted on their own? Surely an image in it's entirety is all that can be protected, lest we start saying that feet are copyrighted because there is a foot in a painting I did this one time.

Can some judge from IL just tell the CO what to do? Do they have to register something they've denied already because 1 man says so?(Not argumentative, serious question there).

At any rate, the CHS basic pad was different enough from the GW one. I'd further point out that GW never did show the court what items of theirs there were claiming CHS was infringing on for copyright.

**ClockworkZion**

Aerethan wrote:
Does GW have art of JUST the shoulderpad? Or are you asserting that parts of a piece of art can be copyrighted on their own? Surely an image in it's entirety is all that can be protected, lest we start saying that feet are copyrighted because there is a foot in a painting I did this one time.

Can some judge from IL just tell the CO what to do? Do they have to register something they've denied already because 1 man says so?(Not argumentative, serious question there).

At any rate, the CHS basic pad was different enough from the GW one. I'd further point out that GW never did show the court what items of theirs there were claiming CHS was infringing on for copyright.

GW had art of shoulder pads in their older books. Maybe the painting ones too. Most (if not all) have some kind of colour or symbol on them, but I don't know if that has to be specifically applied to the model as well (frankly IP law is pretty damned confusing), Here's an image showing just the shoulder pads separate from the Marines (biggest one I could find, but this was a poster during 3rd or 4th I think. I don't remember for sure because it's been a while):

I don't know exactly what power that ruling has. Maybe it can't be used to force it, but it might give GW leverage.

I know one document I read (was from their meeting in April when they pushed back the trial to June) required GW to sit back down and go over everything with CHS showing exactly what items they were talking about and what they looked like. IIRC it'd been done before, but CHS wanted to reconfirm them all and hadn't sat down with GW to do it again. I'd assume the court had seen them at some point as well, but I honestly can't be 100% unless I had been sitting there the entire time.

**Aerethan**

They were required to sit down and agree on things, and they didn't. GW still did not give examples of works infringed.

**ClockworkZion**

Aerethan wrote:
They were required to sit down and agree on things, and they didn't. GW still did not give examples of works infringed.

I remember explicitly in April that GW had to sit down with them and show them specific things. They had a pretty short time limit on this too (24 hours I think?)

I may be having things blur together (I did read well over a hundred pages of this stuff in one sitting so that doesn't help) but I'm pretty sure I'm not mushing things together on this that they had to do this before the trial and it all had to be clear CHS would be shown everything. I admit I could be wrong on this, and if I am that's a great reason to not read over 150 pages of legal documents after midnight.

**Kroothawk**

How do judge and jury in the court take it that GW refused to tell exactly what they are accusing Chapterhouse of and what the jury has to decide on? I mean, this situation must be ... special at least:
"Dear jury, if we told you what this trial is about, we would have to kill you! Please just find them guilty of ... things. Thank you!"

**aka_mythos**

GW's chart of work CHS is alleged to have infringed in is quite amusing... In a number of instances their pictured works didn't exist at the time CHS is alleged to have infringed. In other instances GW pulled out random artwork that is relatively obscure.

**Mr. Burning**

aka_mythos wrote:
GW's chart of work CHS is alleged to have infringed in is quite amusing... In a number of instances their pictured works didn't exist at the time CHS is alleged to have infringed. In other instances GW pulled out random artwork that is relatively obscure.

This is what still boggles my tiny non legal mind after all this time. CHS produce something that GW don't have and GW then want protection, because they didn't make it first.

I'm no great hater of GW, but boy, they make some odd decisions.

**sourclams**

Kroothawk wrote:
How do judge and jury in the court take it that GW refused to tell exactly what they are accusing Chapterhouse of and what the jury has to decide on? I mean, this situation must be ... special at least:
"Dear jury, if we told you what this trial is about, we would have to kill you! Please just find them guilty of ... things. Thank you!"

We have to find them guilty in order to know what they are guilty of.

**Aerethan**

BOLS summary of the case this week.

UPDATE: END OF WEEK 1 Summary

Testomony was heard from:
Alan Merrett (GW head of IP)
Andy Jones (Head of Licensing/Legal)
Gil Steveson (GW Chief Council)

Nick Valluci (Owner of CHS)

Alan Merrett Testimony:

Merrett outlined a general summary of GW's point of view with several points:

- GW takes pride in the "quality and originality" of their products. They do not like when any other company makes miniatures that are based on their own product line, viewing many of these to be of inferior quality. Me mentioned the aftermarket for add-ons "makes us jolly-cross indeed"

Andy Jones Testimony:

Jones laid out many GW points points involving both licensing and financials under questioning:

-GW latest annual numbers reflect revenue of $54 million USD in North american sales. 50% of that was 40K, the other 50% all other GW products sales combined.

-GW was described as having licensing agreements with "big companies", and there is a perception that any such "big companies" would be upset by percieved theft of GW IP. He introduced no evidence of licensees becoming upset having actually occurred.

-GW is concerned that the poor quality of CHS products will rub off or bring down the percieved quality of the GW line in the eyes of licensees. He introduced no evidence of this having actually occurred.

-GW feels that they should get to decide when a product they invent in print and illustration gets to come to market in the form of a physical miniature. When a company such as CHS introduces a competing miniature that was previously unreleased into the market ahead of GW, they consider this this "poisoning the well". Other companies such Kromlech, Maxmini, Scibor, Hitech were listed by name as being examples this concept.

-GW considers the following naming schemes to be acceptable for the aftermarket, applying to all products that interact with their own 40K products:
PRODUCT NAME: "compatible with 28mm science fiction miniatures"
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION: "compatable with Games Workshop [insert exact GW kit title]"

-Said that "anytime CHS made money, that was money GW should have made"

-GW Legal has an "IP Protection Group" which investigates allegations of IP infringement and decides whether/how to proceed. They are usually first alerted to alleged IP infringement by GW customers who they consider to be "our first line of defense as it were".

-GW has 200+ casefiles on organizations and individuals it is investigating for potential legal action against.

Nick Valluci Testmony
-Mr Valluci was examined by GW council vigorously.

-CHS disclosed that its total gross revenue before expenses for a roughly 4 year period in question was @$400,000
-Valluci took home $3000 a month from CHS, while his overseas partner took home $2000 per month.

Evidence Brought Before the Jury: see attached pic" --> OUCH, that one we already know from the Spots the Space Marine disupute.

**agnosto**

Thanks Aerethan.

**wowsmash**

What was the general feel if the court room? Anyone attending?

**Maddermax**

Finally, some real news of the case.

I'm very suprised by the "200+ case files" thing, and naming other possible lawsuit targets thing. This should disabuse anyone of the notion that this is going to be an isolated case - it's just the tip of the iceburg.

**Adam LongWalker**

Maddermax wrote:
Finally, some real news of the case.

I'm very suprised by the "200+ case files" thing, and naming other possible lawsuit targets thing. This should disabuse anyone of the notion that this is going to be an isolated case - it's just the tip of the iceburg.

This is probably current and past C&D's Tip of the iceberg? In my case I am not really impressed with what GW has done so far.

Now the FGU picture? That was priceless.

**Ravenblade666**

Maddermax wrote:
Finally, some real news of the case.

I'm very suprised by the "200+ case files" thing, and naming other possible lawsuit targets thing. This should disabuse anyone of the notion that this is going to be an isolated case - it's just the tip of the iceburg.

Perhaps this case is/could be the tipping point for GW depending wether they win or not.

**Aerethan**

I think mentioning how many potential lawsuits GW has "lined up" gives a negative image to the jury. It makes GW seem like they'll consider suing anyone they even suspect of making anything that may compete with products that GW often doesn't even make.

And suing over a product that someone released before you got around to releasing one is BS. But then I think GW learned their lesson on that, as I'm not aware of any new units in codices that don't have models released for them at the time of the book release.

At any rate, it looks like GW is doing as badly as I anticipated they would. They come off as elitist and litigious.

**Sidstyler**

The sheer arrogance of this company is just overwhelming sometimes.

**timd**

Sidstyler wrote:
The sheer arrogance of this company is just overwhelming sometimes.

Yes, the arrogance seems be be shining brightly. Hope the jury can see it as well as we can...

-Said that "anytime CHS made money, that was money GW should have made"

- Complete and utter bull pucky!

-GW feels that they should get to decide when a product they invent in print and illustration gets to come to market in the form of a physical miniature.

GW may well feel that way, but this "feeling" has nothing to do with copyright law in the real world.

Was not expecting to see CHS sales averaging 100K a year. Better than I thought it might be.

T

**paulson games**

Its my understanding one of the rather nice custom tables from the chicago battle bunker was packed up and sent in as evidence for the trial, its a shame because now the store only has realm of battle boards (on every table). They used to have some pretty awesome and varied tables but they can't sell those so everything was switched out for the pre-made terrain. :(

**Agamemnon2**

Aerethan wrote:
At any rate, it looks like GW is doing as badly as I anticipated they would. They come off as elitist and litigious.

Or as hardworking company under constant attack by makers of subpar-quality knockoffs. It's all how you frame it.

**cerbrus2**

paulson games wrote:
Its my understanding one of the rather nice custom tables from the chicago battle bunker was packed up and sent in as evidence for the trial, its a shame because now the store only has realm of battle boards (on every table). They used to have some pretty awesome and varied tables but they can't sell those so everything was switched out for the pre-made terrain. :(

How is sending a custom made table into the court going to help there case. I herd they showed a Realm of Battle board when they where trying to explain exactly what the business was. But a Custom table? "here is one of our custom tables, made by a professional, you cant actually by this table. But you could build it, if you have enough money to purchase a ton of our overly expensive terrain items"

I just cant see that helping them, unless they go to the argument of "we need to sell bits, so people can make custom items such as this" but being as they don't sell much in the way of bits anymore. All CHS has done is exploit a gap in the market. by selling after market bits. You don't see Mazda taking Vielside to court because people are buying Body panels from them.

It also seems that CHS has proven that they don't make anywhere near the sort of money that GW are saying this causes them to loos.

**Dynamix**

Aerethan wrote:
BOLS summary of the case this week.

They are usually first alerted to alleged IP infringement by GW customers who they consider to be our first line of defense as it were

Not looking too great for GW in that summary so far - thanks for posting .

The above snippet is something I have thought may be the case - as I have been sceptical that GW has the resources neccesary to trawl the entire gaming community for IP infringements .

So according to the summary , GW usually uses reports from its loyal fanbase , upstanding citizens who dont like to see wrongdoing and will protect their HHobby .
No Johnny Tight -Lips , its Jimmy the Squealer all the way !

**Kilkrazy**

To be fair to the fan base and to GW, it is completely legit to report suspected cases of for example recasting.

IDK what sort of IP infringements get reported, but one reason why this case has gone on for two and a half years is because the alleged infringements in it are rather unclear. It's quite likely, therefore, that people from the internet report complete rubbish and GW open a file because that is what you have to do as a responsible corporation legal department. You have to log the reports to show they have been followed up, even if your investigation found there was nothing in it.

If GW then use the number of these case files as "proof" of the scale of the problem, that would be shenanigans.

**Steelmage99**

UPDATE: END OF WEEK 1 Summary

Testomony was heard from:
Alan Merrett (GW head of IP)

- GW takes pride in the "quality and originality" of their products.

They do not like when any other company makes miniatures that are based on their own product line, viewing many of these to be of inferior quality.

Me mentioned the aftermarket for add-ons "makes us jolly-cross indeed"

Pardon?

They do not like that Privateer Press makes models for the Warmachine/Hordes line?

Had they meant that they didn't like that other companies makes models for GWs product line, surely it would have been worded better. Or is this not quote but simply a paraphrase?

**agnosto**

I think this case has already made an impact on how GW does business. This may be stating the obvious but one need only look at the current release schedule and format to see the effects (I.e. all army books come with a complete line of miniatures listed therein).

**Dynamix**

Kilkrazy wrote:
To be fair to the fan base and to GW, it is completely legit to report suspected cases of for example recasting.

Of course , especially recasting .

Its interesting that GW customers are being used as a first-line reporting mechanism,

**Alfndrate**

Steelmage99 wrote:
UPDATE: END OF WEEK 1 Summary

Testomony was heard from:
Alan Merrett (GW head of IP)

- GW takes pride in the "quality and originality" of their products.

They do not like when any other company makes miniatures that are based on their own product line, viewing many of these to be of inferior quality.

Me mentioned the aftermarket for add-ons "makes us jolly-cross indeed"

Pardon?

They do not like that Privateer Press makes models for the Warmachine/Hordes line?

Had they meant that they didn't like that other companies makes models for GWs product line, surely it would have been worded better. Or is this not quote but simply a paraphrase?

Yeah, it's just worded poorly.

**Kilkrazy**

Dynamix wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
To be fair to the fan base and to GW, it is completely legit to report suspected cases of for example recasting.

Of course , especially recasting .

Its interesting that GW customers are being used as a first-line reporting mechanism,

That makes sense because customers would have the highest awareness of the product range.

agnosto wrote:I think this case has already made an impact on how GW does business. This may be stating the obvious but one need only look at the current release schedule and format to see the effects (I.e. all army books come with a complete line of miniatures listed therein).[/agnosto]

I regard that as a positive thing.

The underlying ethic of IP is to reward the creators and encourage the creation of new stuff for the benefit of society. Chapter House would not have sold as many Tervigon conversion kits if GW had made a Tervigon kit in the first place.

**d-usa**

Dynamix wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
To be fair to the fan base and to GW, it is completely legit to report suspected cases of for example recasting.

Of course , especially recasting .

Its interesting that GW customers are being used as a first-line reporting mechanism,

It's fairly common with most companies I would imagine.

Take Dakka: I wonder how many rule violations are found out by mods and how many are found after triangle use.

**Kilkrazy**

It's always the moderators.

Sorry for the OT. The moderators will pick me up shortly.

**agnosto**

Kilkrazy wrote:

I regard that as a positive thing.

The underlying ethic of IP is to reward the creators and encourage the creation of new stuff for the benefit of society. Chapter House would not have sold as many Tervigon conversion kits if GW had made a Tervigon kit in the first place.

I agree wholeheartedly. One bit of angst I always had was with models not being available for units in the books; I'm a poor painter and an even poorer converter.

I attribute GWs recent alacrity in releases to external pressures; the growing popularity of games like warma/hordes and servicable, more inexpensive models such as through Mantic. Based upon the GW belief that any purchase from a 3rd company loses them money, I would assume that Mantic's very existence bugs quite a few people incorporate.

Edit:
I needed a cup of coffee, attribute not contribute. drr