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Believe me it will be well worth the wait (I have to give this one back but I too have a couple on the KS)! Started painting the hull http://dwartist.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/wip-dreamforge-eisenkern-keilerkopf-apc_7.html

 Theophony wrote:
@dr , last of Marc's posts (about a month ago) mentioned they weren't evening the tooling phase. Still waiting for him to pop in and say q4 is looking good.

Last post was on april3, last post about model production was march24. I've seen him post in other kickstarters, kind of disappointed we haven't gotten anything new preview wise except through the painters.

Wave 3 is one of my...

for 2014.

I only got wave 3 stuff from the KS. So my wait continues

Progress looks great, dwartist!

And yeah, Theophony... an update here (or rather, on the Kickstarter page) from Mark on progress would be greatly appreciated. Too much radio silence, although I know they're hard at work, just popping in to keep everyone in the loop would be good.

I'm not worried. Mark's communication is still hugely better than PB's over on the Robotech RRT KS page.

and his models are way better too!

I didn't really mean to turn the thread negative with my post. I was at work when I posted from my phone and my back was hurting at the time, I apologize if it came off rude. We do need some sort of update though from mark. But it needs to be better than "hey, I'm still alive and things are progressing." When he last responded he hadn't begun work on the opposing force, and had handed the game design off to someone else. I just worry that all the delays have taken their tolls on him and he's beginning to walk away from the project. I would assume (yes making an out of myself in the process) that he could be working on the opposing force while waiting for test models from china. At this rate were looking another 3 years until a second faction is almost ready .

I love the models, and the one thing that has kept this from becoming sour is the communications from mark. Unfortunately that has dried up. I think just a decent update would "fix" a lot.

 Theophony wrote:
I didn't really mean to turn the thread negative with my post. I was at work when I posted from my phone and my back was hurting at the time, I apologize if it came off rude. We do need some sort of update though from mark. But it needs to be better than "hey, I'm still alive and things are progressing." When he last responded he hadn't begun work on the opposing force, and had handed the game design off to someone else. I just worry that all the delays have taken their tolls on him and he's beginning to walk away from the project. I would assume (yes making an out of myself in the process) that he could be working on the opposing force while waiting for test models from china. At this rate were looking another 3 years until a second faction is almost ready .

I love the models, and the one thing that has kept this from becoming sour is the communications from mark. Unfortunately that has dried up. I think just a decent update would "fix" a lot.

I concur. I asked for the earlier shipment option on the Crusader sword and pack... still haven't seen it.

 Theophony wrote:
I didn't really mean to turn the thread negative with my post. I was at work when I posted from my phone and my back was hurting at the time, I apologize if it came off rude. We do need some sort of update though from mark. But it needs to be better than "hey, I'm still alive and things are progressing." When he last responded he hadn't begun work on the opposing force, and had handed the game design off to someone else. I just worry that all the delays have taken their tolls on him and he's beginning to walk away from the project. I would assume (yes making an out of myself in the process) that he could be working on the opposing force while waiting for test models from china. At this rate were looking another 3 years until a second faction is almost ready .

I love the models, and the one thing that has kept this from becoming sour is the communications from mark. Unfortunately that has dried up. I think just a decent update would "fix" a lot.

No, you're not being unreasonable. The project is incredibly late, and as you said, the only reason we haven't turned on Mark is because he bothered (for the most part) to keep communication open. I'm not concerned about the second faction myself, just on how the Wave 3 is progressing. (And as you said, preferably more than "things are still progressing")




Heh. Posted over a year ago, hoping that maybe we would have W3 by Christmas. Last Christmas. People thought I was being a bit over the top projecting Christmas 2013...

23/04/2013 10:44:54 PM

 Azazelx wrote:
To be frank, I think Mark was being a bit too optimistic. Given the experiences with this KS so far, I expect the delays to continue to slip further, a little at a time - rather than decrease. It'd obviously be fantastic if I turn out be wrong, but I don't think I will be...

If Mark's updates were more frequent and filled with "it's all happening, guys!" I might expect them in June. The updates are more in line with "Progress is happening, slight problem with this, but it's fixed. Looks like a small delay with that, but nothing major."

I'm not going to put a date where I expect to have W2 in hand by, but I think June is too soon. I'm merely hopeful that we might have W3 in hand before Christmas, but not really expecting it to happen before then.

It's not even cynicism anymore. I simply have no faith in any KS to turn up on time. It's a big reason I'm not really going in on (m)any anymore.

I see no reason to be any less cynical at this stage. I just hope that it we finally get our stuff by Christmas 2014. Though, I honestly wouldn't bet a large amount of money on it at this point

wargames factory seems to be a common element in alot of late KS

Wargames factory, not foundry, but yes they are involved a lot. Marks was the kickstarter that showed what they could do, but now they e moved on to kingdom death, secret weapons tables scapes, and others too numerous to count.

I shouldn't be as upset because I'm not in for any wave three stuff, but I want dreamforge to succeed and this pace is killing it for a lot of people.

 Theophony wrote:
Wargames factory, not foundry, but yes they are involved a lot. Marks was the kickstarter that showed what they could do, but now they e moved on to kingdom death, secret weapons tables scapes, and others too numerous to count.

I shouldn't be as upset because I'm not in for any wave three stuff, but I want dreamforge to succeed and this pace is killing it for a lot of people.

yep i think they over reached on production, was actually just discussing other game systems with my gaming group today as we start to decide what impact 7th edition 40k will have. I was commenting on how I think with the right system in combo with dreamforge's sexy models and great price point it could really take a chunk of market share but I worry that the interest level isnt going to maintain.

But at the same time I do like Mark's approach of getting this KS done and closed out before moving onto the next

I think we all agree if war games factory would give Mark their full attention he could become a major force in the gaming industry. I don't fault Mark I wish it would be sooner though been a backer of his since his resin hit the market.

What is most curious to me is why Wargames Factory hasn't ramped up its output capabilities even more. Imagine a world where WGF could go from digital sculpt to stuff on a ship in three, even six months.

They would be the only game in town. Think of how many Kickstarters you would contribute to if they were offering HIPS troops instead of Restic dross? I honestly think that Wargames Factory churning out high quality HIPS at a reasonable rate would end GW. Small companies could partner up with other small companies to get a sprue cast with a mix of their respective troops, etc. Big kickstarters would have been even bigger.

It must be either very hard to find qualified people to work the milling machines, clean up files, etc. or WGF is blowing the chance of a lifetime.

@gallahad, they have expanded, but the oats to upgrade parts are pretty steep. Plus they are doing all the malifaux plastics, kingdom death, secret weapons, and other things along with their own lines. I don't have behind scenes knowledge, but just from marks response to my question back in March, HE hadn't started on the black widows yet. It's been how long and the files aren't done? I don't think it's all WGF. I do believe the kickstarter was TOO successful. I like what Jeremy with creature caster is doing. He's made his goal and he's not making additional stretch goals, he wants to deliver on time. He's seen what's happened with these others and is trying to avoid the cluster.

I think marks done a great job so far, but recent silence has really hurt the goal, as well as production speed. WGF doesn't NEED ironcore to succeed, it would be a great line for them, but they've shown that they can do anything and have big lines already worked out with malifaux and kingdom death.

Tablescapes is all but into doing the production run. Malifaux is doing a few boxes every month, and they're monopose models, so this ought to be more an "ongoing" than a big push at this point.

WWX is releasing a new box of plastic this month, so they'll require periodic resources. KD:M is another big one that is experiencing delays too.

Mark sounded fairly confident of still hitting the target date, so let's assume it might slip into Q3, just to say he doesn't control the means of production. I'd still like to see him hang out with us a bit more.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Tablescapes is all but into doing the production run. Malifaux is doing a few boxes every month, and they're monopose models, so this ought to be more an "ongoing" than a big push at this point.

WWX is releasing a new box of plastic this month, so they'll require periodic resources. KD:M is another big one that is experiencing delays too.

Mark sounded fairly confident of still hitting the target date, so let's assume it might slip into Q3, just to say he doesn't control the means of production. I'd still like to see him hang out with us a bit more.

Tablescapes is only awaiting being boxed up, all the tiles are molded and awaiting packaging and shipping.

 Theophony wrote:
@gallahad, they have expanded, but the oats to upgrade parts are pretty steep. Plus they are doing all the malifaux plastics, kingdom death, secret weapons, and other things along with their own lines.

I think marks done a great job so far, but recent silence has really hurt the goal, as well as production speed. WGF doesn't NEED ironcore to succeed, it would be a great line for them, but they've shown that they can do anything and have big lines already worked out with malifaux and kingdom death.

Sure, but is the price to upgrade parts more expensive than the revenue they are missing out on by being unable to deliver with any semblance of reliability? If DFG's KS was anywhere close to completing, I honestly think Mark could easily raise a million dollars on a second KS campaign. That isn't chump change. Not to mention all of the other companies that could have made injection plastic work.

As much as I like Mark's designs, and would love to see a workable coupon for SEA, I strongly doubt that I would back another DFG or WGF-manufactured kickstarter. I'm sure my individual contribution won't make or break a campaign, and I need to not be backing things that will be incredibly late or take 2-3 years to come in. I'll pay a little more and buy product at retail instead.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

Mark sounded fairly confident of still hitting the target date, so let's assume it might slip into Q3, just to say he doesn't control the means of production. I'd still like to see him hang out with us a bit more.

Sorry, Brah. I'm going with Christmas-if-we're-lucky with a goodly chance of "After-Chinese-New-Year 2015". I like Mark, and I like the quality of work that WGF puts out, but I have no confidence in their delivery schedule anymore. Especially with current updates being like this:


re: Widows

 Theophony wrote:
@dr , last of Marc's posts (about a month ago) mentioned they weren't evening the tooling phase. Still waiting for him to pop in and say q4 is looking good.
Last post was on april3, last post about model production was march24. I've seen him post in other kickstarters, kind of disappointed we haven't gotten anything new preview wise except through the painters.

That makes over 6 weeks since we've heard anything about production...

I don't think it's a question of 'upgrading' WGF's equipment, more that of getting bigger premises and increasing the number of machined they own. The cost of that would be high indeed, and they may not be able to raise the capital to make that jump at the moment.

As I don't know the size of premises they are currently at, nor the number of machines they use, then I can't say how much it would actually cost, but the smaller they are currently, the larger the proportion of their budget they would have to use. However, the larger they are already, the larger in absolute terms the money required to expand by any significant degree.

With larger premises and more machines, they could possibly get all of Marks moulds cut at the same time. This would then enable them to move on to other projects quicker. Or they could be more effectively working on multiple projects at the same time.

Both approaches bring in more money for WGF, but the first has the bonus of being seen to be able of producing a fast turn-around and increasing their standing in the industry. Both have risks and challenges, and both still rely on the customer being happy with the mould designs before cutting can start.

Legoburner wne to WGF late last year... or ealy this year. He took pics. And Tablescapes had a couple of videos to moulds being cut (very noisy stuff) and a quick walk-through ofthe mould area of the factory.

We just got an update on Tablescapes, saying the security gate has just been approved for Urban streets, so I'm guessing it's not just boxing left.

Azazelx: Brah-fist, man. I'm not touching another WGF KS for a little while. I realized I gave a lot of money for a lot of plastic that I don't have in hand at the moment. I'll milk that hypothetical coupon for all I can, and that'll be that, as they say.

Legoburners pics of his WGF tour were great, was nice seeing some of what goes on there. Don't have much to back it up but I thought that the delays for DFG were due to WGF underestimating the cost of the project and needing to take on other business in order to stay afloat, in part thanks to the troubled history of the company before the new guy took over and turned it all around. There's no doubt DFG products will be a great long term range for them but pretty sure it took a much larger investment than what the KS took in to get it all done. What did Mark say, 90 tools had to be cut for the entire project? I thought I heard that something like 10K was the average price for the tools used with injected plastics, and with DFG pulling in 205K it would fall far short of the 900K needed at that price.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Azazelx: Brah-fist, man. I'm not touching another WGF KS for a little while. I realized I gave a lot of money for a lot of plastic that I don't have in hand at the moment. I'll milk that hypothetical coupon for all I can, and that'll be that, as they say.

I got my WWX plastics back in Jan (on time iirc, or at least not very late) which were done by them and they're just as good as DFG ones - perhaps better as the minis are much more detailed due to the styling. A kickstarter using WGF is a huge positive for me and I'm much more likely to consider it if I know they're doing the plastics. Not saying I don't understand your pov, just that the quality and decent to awesome price trumps potential delays for me.

 Yonan wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Azazelx: Brah-fist, man. I'm not touching another WGF KS for a little while. I realized I gave a lot of money for a lot of plastic that I don't have in hand at the moment. I'll milk that hypothetical coupon for all I can, and that'll be that, as they say.

I got my WWX plastics back in Jan (on time iirc, or at least not very late) which were done by them and they're just as good as DFG ones - perhaps better as the minis are much more detailed due to the styling. A kickstarter using WGF is a huge positive for me and I'm much more likely to consider it if I know they're doing the plastics. Not saying I don't understand your pov, just that the quality and decent to awesome price trumps potential delays for me.

I have to agree - the quality of WGF gives me a lot of confidence in someone's Kickstarter campaign when I know they'll using WGF.

I won't necessarily expect it to be on time, but I know it will be good!

Hopefully WGF will figure out how to schedule things better and/or multitask better soon...

I rather just wait for retail for anything from WGF or anybody producing anything via WGF.

Sining wrote:
I rather just wait for retail for anything from WGF or anybody producing anything via WGF.

The savings from kickstarter can be pretty amazing. For example with the DFG stormtroopers you received 3x20 STs and 3x Accessory packs for $100 ($88 +$12 shipping iirc). At discounted retail that's $225 from Wayland Games (didn't think they were that bad... damn) or $170 from Combat Company in Australia so you're looking at big savings over discounted retail. Some people prefer to support FLGS but since I don't play at them I prefer the manufacturer to get the entire payment to reward them for making excellent products. Nothing against FLGS or people who support them, but in the digital age I personally find playing at clubs and houses, buying online and getting information on forums much superior to the inefficient FLGS system.

 Alpharius wrote:
Hopefully WGF will figure out how to schedule things better and/or multitask better soon...

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment ; p But heartily agree.

That's for you. Personally I like not having to wait 2-3 years for products after I paid -_-

I haven't gotten any WWX troops, only the Wayward 8, so essentially their demo reel for Malifaux. They're good, but monopose. So to me, the fact that Eisenkerns are multipose makes them a superior product.

I agree about the allure of HIPS, though, it is a superior material when produce to WGF's standard. I just hope it won't kill Mark's Iron Core project if he crumbles under debt owed to them.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I haven't gotten any WWX troops, only the Wayward 8, so essentially their demo reel for Malifaux. They're good, but monopose. So to me, the fact that Eisenkerns are multipose makes them a superior product.

Agreed, the multipose nature of DFG is amazing, especially combined with compatible kits such as the accessory kit and soon, the black widows - not to mention 3rd party ranges. Too many projects, but one of my favourites that I still want to do is a Dreadball Eisenkern team. WWX just shows the detail that WGF can get out of their plastics to me, but the WWX monopose design itself is why I won't invest more in the products since I'm not a fan of clone armies, but one set of each is great due to the quality.

I agree about the allure of HIPS, though, it is a superior material when produce to WGF's standard. I just hope it won't kill Mark's Iron Core project if he crumbles under debt owed to them.

I'm not so sure that Mark would be in debt to them as such, since iirc it was basically done in partnership with WGF. Every new kit he released during the KS as a stretchgoal was done after discussion with WGF so it's more like a mutual cost, and the delays being a way to still fulfill the project despite a cost blow-out. Disclaimer: speculation ; p

Sining wrote:
That's for you

That's a given.

Hey, I hope you're right. Before the Eisenkern came along, I wanted to revamp my IG with Defiance marines. That turned out stellar. The last thing I want is for yet another range (one that is much better, if not as "hard sci-fi") to go extinct.

And for all the delays, at least we're getting HIPS, and not Raginshiroz spin cast resin. Which is almost as late. (Eisenkern were 5 months late, RH troops are as of today 8 months late and not slated until September, at the earliest)

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Hey, I hope you're right. Before the Eisenkern came along, I wanted to revamp my IG with Defiance marines. That turned out stellar. The last thing I want is for yet another range (one that is much better, if not as "hard sci-fi") to go extinct.

And for all the delays, at least we're getting HIPS, and not Raginshiroz spin cast resin. Which is almost as late. (Eisenkern were 5 months late, RH troops are as of today 8 months late and not slated until September, at the earliest)

RH hahaha. Yeah, we'll be waiting for a while there won't we ; p Thankfully I dropped my pledge down from $800 to $150ish... but I'm still pretty confident we'll get everything there, and again I'll take quality and price over time. Not sure that the savings from RH over discounted retail were enough to justify the wait though

Thankfully it's basically guaranteed that we're getting all our DFG stuff at this stage as Dwarfists (awesome) Hanomag shows us work is still proceeding, and the kits are looking just as good as ever. Hoping WGF and DFG partnership continues to extend Eisenkern and add more Dreamforge armies.

If I had one wish, it would be for someone with Marks skill to get a Starcraft contract and use WGF for production, going the awesome multipose route he took with Eisenkern. I'd go balls deep into that like nothing else.

 Alpharius wrote:


I have to agree - the quality of WGF gives me a lot of confidence in someone's Kickstarter campaign when I know they'll using WGF.
I won't necessarily expect it to be on time, but I know it will be good!
Hopefully WGF will figure out how to schedule things better and/or multitask better soon...

For me, now, WGF means the product will be of good/high quality, and that a KS will be quite delayed. So for me, a good product for retail.