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Plastics + Options= real good...

even if i had to buy "army starter" style big sprue. you could really play with the builds if you do that.

ever think about doing smaller mecha style heavy armor to fill some spots? that would be cool.

rigeld2 wrote:
Metal would count me out completely.

Edit: and my wife is making me skip the Robotech Kickstarter for this. So metal would make me a sad panda.

If that is actually the case I would put your money into Robotech (as it closes this week). I simply can't rule out metal at this point.



There are several factors in play on this, by itself metal is more expensive than resin however it is actually far more cost effective in terms of labor costs and mold life. Keep in mind I run a casting business and I am very aware of material costs and labor costs. Resin works great for smaller volumes of parts but it is very demanding on the labor end which is why you see it only used in two areas, small boutique casters and GW who has a large amount of available manpower. (and yet finecast still sucks)

Resin looks great on display but for many of the pieces it holds up very poorly to game play. Resin weapon barrels are a night mare, they miscast a lot, and are very prone to breakage and warping. The current range of weapons I produce for my store are very bulky and tend to hold up well, however many of the gun barrels for mecha front are scaled much more realistically and are very thin, which makes durability for play problematic. (GW weapons are grossly oversized and still have issues)

Ever ask a Tau player about just how much he "loves" his crisis suit's ankles? Many of the light mecha have some fairly delicate leg componants which would also have durability problems if they are done exclusively in resin.

As owner of a resin casting company I work with resin everyday and I love resin models. I have a huge personal collection of them as well, but resin certainly is not the solution to *every* situation. Foremost I need to make the models viable for game play and as much as I've tried to explore every option many of the models are going to require at least a few metal parts.

If metal is completely not an option in any shape or form for you, then I can't say to wait on my KS because there's going to be some metal involved unless I can manage to go all plastic. (And plastics may prove to be beyond my reach at this point).


.

Another thing to consider with plastic is future expansion. If you go resin/metal you can tool up for new mechs/factions yourself. If you start in plastic, any expansions will require you to use plastic, and likely more kickstarters to fund the expansions. Also longer development times for said expansions/factions as well.

Dont get me wrong, I love plastic, but it may not be ideal for this product.

Metal is not preferable, but I accept that it is likely to be present no matter what as I know this is going to be a killer product.

Resin would drive others interest much further I'm sure and plastic would be super awesome! But I'm realistic and will be in on this no matter what (barring the casts look like a slowed dinosaur with mutant parts hanging off).

I'd be very interested if it were plastic, less so if it was metal.

I rather dislike metal myself. I think the idea of a plastic stretch goal in the Kickstarter makes a lot of sense if you aren't sure you could get the Kickstarter off the ground with plastic.

I think resin and metal similar to how Privateer does their battle engines, gargantuans, and colossals is the way to go to start with. (example in spoiler)
Make whatever is reasonable to be made in resin but pieces that would work better in metal due to size, shape, etc. in metal.
Then if Kickstarting once there are mechs from each faction funded make a stretch goal be plastics.

As warboss said on the previous page- I don't know if it's feasible, but wouldn't it be possible to have the initial 30K goal be for all metal / resin options, then stretches every 15 - 20K for turning those same kits into plastic one at a time?

Might not be the way to go about it, but it hedges your bets a bit...

I think one of the reasons that hybrid metal/resin kits have such a bad reputation is the need to pin the joints

folk used to plastic aren't used to it anymore, so may not bother (leaving an easily breakable mini), or even if they do resent the extra time and effort needed

Maybe think if you can incorporate some sort of peg (metal) and socket (resin) joint on the parts to simplify the assembly process and give a more stable final mini if you do go the hybrid route ?

My order of preference would be:

1) 100% Plastic
2) 100% Resin
3) 100% Metal
4) Hybrid kits

Still looking forward to this one!

For me, definitely plastic or resin. Metals can be such a pain to work with and with the larger size mechs you are looking at, that can be lots of pinning for good, long term strength while plastic would stay together really well with good cement. The though of metal to start, then perhaps stretch goals to go plastic sounds good, but if backers get in planning on that, then it falls through, you end up with unhappy campers. Also if you do that, and it does take the longer time to get the models out, the people who jumped in expecting metals sooner may not be happy that all of a sudden they are waiting longer times for the plastics they did not want.
In the current climate, plastics just seem the good way to go. I know I would be happy to dump some C-notes for plastic (probably not so much for metals), even if it is gonna be close to a year (still waiting for my Ogre, but hey, Kickstarter is about getting what you want, not just getting it right now).
Heck, look at FoW, they are moving toward plastic.
The ease of assembly, quality of models and the ease of customization and modding makes plastic/resin the main choice.
Also, why not go for a long period for the Kickstarter? What is the longest time it can run? Give it more time to make more money and perhaps that will further enhance the probability and ability that you can go plastic instead. (not to mention that with the aforementioned Robotech project that ends next week, you might want to allow a month or more for people to build back up funds, I'm betting that many of the same people who want your mechs-me me me- are also huge Robotech fanatics from way back and probably not done wetting ourselves yet over that project so they need time to dump mass quantities of funds to your project too)

I've already lost most intrest in Warmahordes because of their metal and metal/plesin hybrid models.

Resin will slow your production to a crawl. Plastic takes a lot more money up front but if your kickstarter is a success, that should take care of itself. Once you've got the molds, volume production is easy and quick.

I guess the question is, do you see Mecha Front selling enough kits to make a profit?

I've seen extra-detail kits sell for tanks and model boats that had brass weapon barrels. If a socket is moulded into the resin part, wouldn't that be an easy fix?

I've assembled TAG and pinning does take some effort, but it is worth it. I have not had ir break yet, and most of my Firestorm Armada had metal pieces and they went together fine.

Oh, and I've finished modifying my Nichimo kits with your resin weapons... they look bad@$$.

Ive built numerous resin, metal, and hybrid kits of all sizes. Some Ive pinned, some I havent. There hasnt been any difference in life and/or durability between the two. Right now Im looking at a Cryx Helljack (metal) that was built about 4 years ago with no pins, and has been through 2 moves without breaking. I played Battletech for years (quite actively) with dozens of metal mechs that werent pinned. Never had any problems with them.

I will note that I do thoroughly wash all my parts, and I use a good quality super glue (Gorilla Impact Tough), not the cheapo 4 tubes for 99 cents junk.

There are several factors in play on this, by itself metal is more expensive than resin however it is actually far more cost effective in terms of labor costs and mold life. Keep in mind I run a casting business and I am very aware of material costs and labor costs. Resin works great for smaller volumes of parts but it is very demanding on the labor end which is why you see it only used in two areas, small boutique casters and GW who has a large amount of available manpower. (and yet finecast still sucks)

I've done spin casting through the years. He is exactly right on his comment. The ability to recycle flawed parts keeps the price low. As far as finecast? From my experience I believe this is a stop game measure so they can continue to use their old mold making equipment.

There is an extreme bias on metal models, which is unfortunate as people are so used to using plastic models.

But if it is the difference of keeping costs down to provide a quality product I'm in for that. I want this game to succeed and hope others on Dakka will purchase the game if it is all metal or partly metal or all plastic/resin.

In essence, I want to see Paulson Games to grow and be successful.

-Adam

I love metal models. No qualms whatsoever.

Your models are awesome, but there's no way I'd end up pledging for metal. Plastic or maybe, maybe restic/bonesium/resin are the only materials I can see getting excited about on Kickstarter these days. By the time your Kickstarter opens, Reaper will have announced their Bones CAV line, which will be a serious problem if your line is still all metal.

If people are pitching in their two cents about preferences, I'll say that I prefer plastic hands-down. The ease of assembly and the fact that it won't break as easily are the main factors. The ease of converting is another biggie for me.

A big reason I went for DreamForge's stuff was that it is plastic. And it is oh so awesome. If you go plastic I will definitely pick up some of your stuff. If you go resin, metal, or some hybrid, I'll be much more strongly inclined to just buy more Dreamforge stuff.

Just my own personal opinions, for what they're worth.

-C6

Reapers CAV line of mechs is a poor comparison. They are a different scale, 10mm, and much smaller overall, closer to Battletech mechs in size, where the Mecha Front mechs are abojt twice that size. The two wouldnt be able to be used interchangeably...so they arent really direct competition.


Theres also the issue of completely different styles of mech design between the two...

When people say they can't afford to plan a KS for plastic I say Dreamforge and Malifaux.

Malifaux is character driven skirmish game that is mid-level in popularity going all styrene plastic.

Dreamforge made some huge kits in styrene and over time will see a nice profit as will Wyrd.

I have a solid grasp on what it takes to go plastic.I really do. It’s not that far out of reach with KS and with proper planing it could work out really well. You could do starter faction kits X models on a sprue reach the goal that allows for production of 2 factions and a little breathing room then make expansions stretch goals singles or multi packs (Malifaux style) with breathing room.

Please don’t “ DP9” this… imagine if DP9 had plastic…it’s all I would play (maybe a little exaggeration here. but I'd play and buy a hell've lot more Heavy Gear if it wasn't such a metal expensive "Boutique" product )

I'm seeing a lot of no metal votes and resin won't stand up to the tiny bits.

You can listen to the fans or just say "well their going to be metal so don't bother pledging" as was basically said above.

Over the long haul you'll build a bigger fan base and have molds that last forever.

But what do I know....

I understand you're a small casting company with investments made in equipment and such I get it… but in the “end game” what do you really want to be? A GW aftermarket/ add-on company turned mediocre game company or “well I started with Home casting set-up but soon turned it into a AAA Wargame company” I’m sure you want to be the AAA company.

You can’t do both either man, you can’t be the 1 man show DIY AAA world wide supplier. Have more faith in your fantastic Idea Mr. Paulson. Figure out how much outsourcing the casting and production to China will cost and Go Big man.

I think you have a great idea here. I’ll pledge 150ish for plastics for sure. I’m afraid you quickly fall to the wayside being the Metal/Resin Home caster DIY company.
Great Idea, good looking concepts, now figure out a way to step your game up and take it to a level such a cool IP deserves.
You can do it man.

and don't tell possible fans to go pledge robotech... makes you look defeated before you even get started. We all know the robotech story man and it sucks what happened. So out do them.

Plastic. The 120k goal should be very doable. About the delivery date. Play it safe, people dont mind waiting for a set date, people do get frustrated if you anounce a delay =p. You also have t come up with a "sweet spot" pledge. It should be the average amount pledged. Imagine 1k pledgers at 150 usd, and your goal is reached. Examine all succesful kickstarters, use kicktraq, become a ks master. Goodluck !


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Robotech ks stinks imho you get a billion of the same kinda boring sculpts. The jp model kits are so much cooler and cheaper, but you cant game with them, only downside.

I feel the same way, devilution (about the same sculpts, etc). That's why I feel like this could be really popular... paulson has a great name as a "boutique" bits / model sculptor, and that has shown campaigns able to raise a lot of funds even for traditional sculpts / methods.

If he goes for plastic, a lot more people would be interested.

However, I might be interested in resin, too... if it is resin and JUST the gun barrels are metal, I would advertise them as RESIN not resin/metal hybrids... that will chill people like nothing else, for whatever reason.

 5deadly wrote:
I have a solid grasp on what it takes to go plastic.I really do. It’s not that far out of reach with KS and with proper planing it could work out really well.

This is something I've thought about, can you elaborate? What are the fist steps to be taken?

 mad robot wrote:

 5deadly wrote:
I have a solid grasp on what it takes to go plastic.I really do. It’s not that far out of reach with KS and with proper planing it could work out really well.

This is something I've thought about, can you elaborate? What are the fist steps to be taken?

Are we talking about the process from design to product?
Get the design you’re wanting done, render it in 3D properly and ensure there will be no undercutting when breaking it down in parts, break it down as far as it needs to be to ensure this. Print out prototypes first so you positively know it’s what you want. That around $20-$100 a square inch depending on where you go and what you’re looking for. After that find a company with solid tech and engineers on the backend to help ensure the casting process will run smooth and that can correct mistakes overlooked and make adjustments on the fly. Make sure you get everything you want to sell on that kit because that’s it for a while.
If you’re asking me if I Know every intricate detail of the styrene injection mold making process CNC, Graphite EDM etching and such, No I’m not an engineer so I don’t know about the entire process like machinist or engineers do. I’m pretty sure a regular person with a little studying can ensure a solid 3D STL file and the right connections can take it from 2D concept to Plastic, Painted and on the table.
Nowadays you can get a mold made from anywhere from $2000-$30,000 depending on your needs or more expensive if you really have to.
The expense of the process varies and a lot of it depends on quality you’re looking for and how much prototyping you do.. Some mold can cost double the normal price due to the pulling method they allow, but help greatly to ensure odd shaped pieces avoid undercutting
Not really sure what you’re asking for but if you have more knowledge on the subject please add to it. I’m always up for learning something new. ; )
But it’s a little OT for the topic.

I've sent you a PM in order to avoid derailing Paulson's thread.

5deadly: with quoting Malifaux and Dreamforge making the leap to plastics, I'll kindly remind you that both of those companies had a metal line prior to doing so. Those lines allowed them to properly gauge their market demand and build a budget pool in order to undertake that switch. We all need to master baby steps before we can start running.

If you have a small company to suggest as a business model for plastics by all means toss it out there. But to my knowledge anyone that's currently broken the plastics barrier is an established company or already has a metal line.

If you have some actual credentials in running an independent business, or you have work history within the plastics field I'd highly welcome any insights you might have. I've put in a lot of phone calls and face time with other business owners and people who have run successful kickstarters which has been a huge help. I always welcome help from anyone that has applicable industry experience and is willing to share that knowledge. But random internet "experts" and arm chair advisors aren't of any particular use to me as all they provide is speculation and theories.


I apreciate the feedback that people have given on their personal preferences of material as it helps me get feel for what my customer base would prefer.

However the underlying decisions I make in running my company are not up for debate. I strive to make the best product I that can within the means that I am able to. I think that strategy has done well to build my business and create a good name with my customers. Regardless of what material I ultimately use it will be done so that I can produce the best quality models possible while working within my production capacity.

the D6 generation had an interview with one of the Wyrd guys a while back that touches on the metal/plastic/resin question

http://www.thed6generation.com/premium/d6g-ep-112-plastic-production-digital-diversions

It's got what seem to me to be some important insights, one of the take home messages being that the engineers/technicians etc working in plastic production are NOT miniatures folk in the way that metal casters are likely to be

so you need to think carefully about what you ask//tell them to do (eg the to small mini they weren't able to show at gencon as it was modelled standing on rails and the casting company went oh 28mm in total, not 28mm figure itself)

 paulson games wrote:
However the underlying decisions I make in running my company are not up for debate. I strive to make the best product I that can within the means that I am able to. I think that strategy has done well to build my business and create a good name with my customers. Regardless of what material I ultimately use it will be done so that I can produce the best quality models possible while working within my production capacity.

Absolutely, and I hope at least my comments weren't suggesting otherwise.

rigeld2 wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
However the underlying decisions I make in running my company are not up for debate. I strive to make the best product I that can within the means that I am able to. I think that strategy has done well to build my business and create a good name with my customers. Regardless of what material I ultimately use it will be done so that I can produce the best quality models possible while working within my production capacity.

Absolutely, and I hope at least my comments weren't suggesting otherwise.

Once he has a successful footing with his product line with a positive cash flow he can switch over to plastic/resin/ or whatever the trends of the day.

What is important is that he succeeds after 5 years of being in this venture. And yes I have has a few failures that I chalk up to a steep learning curve. Research. Research. Research. Gather as much data and funds available and remember that this is for the long haul and there will be so many bumps on the road along the way to a successful business.

Below is a URL. Interesting read and a similar approach on what I learned the hard way through the years.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/01/small-business-successfailure-rates/

 paulson games wrote:
If you have some actual credentials in running an independent business, or you have work history within the plastics field I'd highly welcome any insights you might have. I've put in a lot of phone calls and face time with other business owners and people who have run successful kickstarters which has been a huge help. I always welcome help from anyone that has applicable industry experience and is willing to share that knowledge. But random internet "experts" and arm chair advisors aren't of any particular use to me as all they provide is speculation and theories.

Only one guy said Malifaux and Dreamforge...


this says I don't care what you think you simpleton, in slightly nicer wording

good job Mr. Paulson.

good luck with this project. I'll keep my nose out of it..., I'll go pledge Robotech then

One customer down... get a PR guy if you're prone to insults...however slight. "But random internet "experts" and arm chair advisors aren't of any particular use to me as all they provide is speculation and theories.
"