Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game, Prodos loses license to AvP. p.266

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**adlard.matthew**

Who else thinks this could have been sorted out by just thinking 'This Kickstarter will be or could be massive... No free shipping'.

**Moses Bad**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

I do not understand the context of your second quote. Please explain what I am missing. Did Frakes do a kickstarter or is that just some kind of parody?

Ah, I see ...
What's called X-Factor in Germany was called Beyond Belief: Fact or Fiction in the english realm. No wonder you didn't know what I was talking about. That was how he ended the show in the German translation, translated into english - which might not be the way he did it in english.
Sometimes I just don't get those TV shmooks. Replacing one english title for another.
Favorite example, though films, not TV: The Prophecy became God's Army.

Alpharius wrote:
It seems as if living in a cesspit of vitriol and hate has made us strong!

Say, does that make you a lavatory attendant? Pure curiosity.

**PomWallaby**

adlard.matthew wrote:
Who else thinks this could have been sorted out by just thinking 'This Kickstarter will be or could be massive... No free shipping'.

Not sure I understand. I think everyone has paid shipping. No discount if you manage to collect it in person.

**Grumpae**

Shipping was in fact charged on the ks. No freebies here!

**Moses Bad**

Everybody paid shipping and if you went to collect, well, you made a donation.

**crazy_cat**

Moses Bad wrote:
Everybody paid shipping and if you went to collect, well, you made a donation.

But - at least you then had some stuff.

The way Prodos are going currently many (possibly most) of us KS backers still have nothing but lies and empty promises to show for our KS money, with no realistic delivery date in sight - and the company that owes us the stuff looks like it might go tits up at any moment; and clearly can't be trusted given their variosu lies to date, and couldn't and shouldn't ever be trusted by pre-order or Kickstarter backers ever again.

**Joyboozer**

I'm curious that seeing Kickstarter sent out a message to backers saying that the removal of the kickstarter page would not effect the project and backers would still receive their rewards, what kind of liability this opens them to?

**Grumpae**

Joyboozer wrote:
I'm curious that seeing Kickstarter sent out a message to backers saying that the removal of the kickstarter page would not effect the project and backers would still receive their rewards, what kind of liability this opens them to?

Going out on a limb a bit here, but I'm pretty sure there is still no liability to Kickstarter. The onus is always on the creator, and as long as they can prove that they shipped some of them, and have now run out of money, we aren't owed anything. Yep, pretty much sucks...

**PomWallaby**

Not a lawyer, but I'm sure that selling the kickstarter versions at retail instead of meeting their obligations to backers would muddy the water. It's not as if Prodos "ran out of money", Prodos just makes more money (on paper) if they delay fulfilment and sells stuff instead. I say on paper because if I had recieved a core box and been happy with it I may have been tempted to pick up a 2nd.

I'm not so worried by the core box, it exists, I just have to wait till Prodos has the grace to dispatch it. I'm more worried about Wave 2 (&3). The game may not have proved popular enough to warrent the license etc. Pure speculation there.

**biggusdoggus**

PomWallaby wrote:
It's not as if Prodos "ran out of money

[cut]

I'm not so worried by the core box, it exists, I just have to wait till Prodos has the grace to dispatch it. I'm more worried about Wave 2 (&3). The game may not have proved popular enough to warrent the license etc. Pure speculation there.

Erm, yes, that's exactly what has happened. Between design and production costs (including redesigning and even reproducing most if not all of the models for the core box, the countless delays during the project some of which were possibly caused by Fox being a difficult to work with multinational corporate, and some most certainly because Prodos didn't pre-plan correctly and handle Fox in a way that would work - essentially they failed to understand how such relationships operate - and then the costs incurred by them expanding their business - I seem to recall they had about 16 staff when the project started, they now have in excess of 30, at least one possibly two moves of premises (perhaps one each in UK and Poland, hard to be sure), changes to the plans from 1 wave of shipping to 2 or even 3 etc etc, running out of money is precisely what has happened. Prodos are asset rich (ish) but cash poor, and while they have a lot of other things on the go, designing and producing minis for other companies, their 3d printing service, and of course WZR to name but a few, none of these generate huge amounts of income - they keep the company ticking over, but it's a small, young and (imho) inexperienced company when it comes to the business side of things. They are good at making minis, but not so good at project planning and management, or at financial planning. and they are utterly clueless at customer relations.

So yes, they are skint. Our million dollars or so (including pledge manager additions) was spent long ago. Their failure to fully appreciate costs means they are running at a loss for every pledge they deliver, and currently they don't have the funds to ship them all, possibly don't even have the funds to complete manufacturing.

If Prodos were a patient in hospital, you'd have a crash team and a surgical team on standby, because they could go down at any minute. Sure, they may not, and we all hope they don't, but they've bitten off way more than they could chew, and it's bitten back at them big style. The end result is that they have to sell at retail to make the money needed to complete the kickstarter.

Your second point is interesting. You're intimating (whether intentionally or not) that they may not have yet secured the licence to produce the wargame, and that is the cause of at least some of the current delay. Oh how I hope you're wrong, because if that is the case, we're probably fubarred.

**Dark Severance**

For those people are are adverse to being on Facebook, this was posted about an hour ago.

We are half way through the day and this is what is going out from Prodos tower, we should double that by the end of the day, also please remember to check out our blog.prodosgames.com (new post should be there today)

Spoiler:

**angelofvengeance**

Please, please let my gubbinz be amongst that pile...

**CptJake**

angelofvengeance wrote:
Please, please let my gubbinz be amongst that pile...

Isn't this a 'send to retail' week?

**warboss**

CptJake wrote:
angelofvengeance wrote:
Please, please let my gubbinz be amongst that pile...

Isn't this a 'send to retail' week?

It might be a mix. They have the "big box" version in the pic that is supposed to be going to KS backers (and possibly some leftovers to retail) and the "slim pickings" box that they switched to for retail when the money dried up apparently.

**Moses Bad**

warboss wrote:
It might be a mix. They have the "big box" version in the pic that is supposed to be going to KS backers (and possibly some leftovers to retail) and the "slim pickings" box that they switched to for retail when the money dried up apparently.

Hard to tell, tbh - that black wrapping makes it a bit hard to exactly tell the size of the boxes.

**Dark Severance**

They don't look like slim-boxes at all. Not to mention retailers wouldn't get them packaged up in 1s and 2s. You'd expect them to at least order half a case if not a full case.

**biggusdoggus**

there's a few boxes (back of the second pic, back right and a few dead centre of the first, that are clearly not AvP KS boxsets, either being obviously slimline or in some cases probably not AvP at all - this is probably the sum of stuff leaving Prodos Towers today rather than specifically just the KS.

But it does seem that there are quite a few AvP KS boxes in there if size is anything to go by. In any event, we should probably take it as intended - a quick update to show that things are still happening, maybe slower than we'd like, but definitely still happening.

If I was Prodos, I'd be looking to put out shots like this almost daily, just to show a continuous stream of stuff leaving the building. Anything that is clear evidence that this hasn't all gone to hell in a hand cart. It's become increasingly difficult to believe what we're told when faced by walls of text that often invite more questions than providing clear answers, so photographic evidence seems a more solid grounding for them right now. A good way to start to rebuild trust and goodwill.

**JohnHwangDD**

Is that dude playing solitaire on his desk?

j/k

It's good that some more backers are finally getting what they paid for.

**Nostromodamus**

Glad to see the progress!

**FacelessMage**

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Is that dude playing solitaire on his desk?

Yellow?
Overalls?

I do believe Prodos is stepping up and hiring Minions.

**Moses Bad**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Is that dude playing solitaire on his desk?

Rather putting together the cards for the game.

**biggusdoggus**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Is that dude playing solitaire on his desk?

he's sorting the card decks out, presumably to go into backer's boxes. I hadn't considered that they wouldn't come from the printers pre-sorted, doing that by hand for every box must be mindnumbing.

FacelessMage wrote:

Yellow?
Overalls?

I do believe Prodos is stepping up and hiring Minions.

Yup, Jarek made the same joke in facebook earlier. I wonder if they have an unlimited supply of bananas ....

**PomWallaby**

biggusdoggus wrote:
PomWallaby wrote:
It's not as if Prodos "ran out of money"
[cut]

Erm, yes, that's exactly what has happened.

I wasn't saying that there were "AVP kickstarter funds" left. Refunds were off the table ages ago. I was trying to say that Prodos still has money coming in. Their company is more diverse than just producing AVP although selling AVP must help. If Prodos runs out of money more than AVP bites the dust.

**JohnHwangDD**

Moses Bad wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Is that dude playing solitaire on his desk?
Rather putting together the cards for the game.

You know, Deutschlanderen don't have to conform to stereotype of being humorless...

Or was that the joke?

**Dark Severance**

In response to if any of those boxes were retail

KS stuff, well you really think I would show off retail stuff going out knowing that KS are waiting for theirs? You are really forcing us to stop any updates until we fulfil the KS... really...

Also a report from someone in Germany who received their shipment from the Aug 10/11th batch that went out.

To make it short: My game arrived TODAY!!!

I'm one of the 10th/11th August guys here to bring the good news. Today I found a similar packed package in my stairway: AvP: The Hunt Begins arrived! It was delivered (to germany) via UPS. Thank you very much Prodos-Team for taking care and re-sending it. I really hope you were able to find those missing packages. So far, everything looks fine and I will check later again and work on the miniatures! smile emoticon Now I have to find the old update again about the "new" retail version, because I feel like buying it another time, but of course want the same version (maybe the german one this time!) smile emoticon I assume I will probably just buy one additional copy at Spiele Essen 2015

**biggusdoggus**

PomWallaby wrote:
biggusdoggus wrote:
PomWallaby wrote:
It's not as if Prodos "ran out of money"
[cut]

Erm, yes, that's exactly what has happened.

I wasn't saying that there were "AVP kickstarter funds" left. Refunds were off the table ages ago. I was trying to say that Prodos still has money coming in. Their company is more diverse than just producing AVP although selling AVP must help. If Prodos runs out of money more than AVP bites the dust.

I think in recent months that's been a real possibility. As I say, they are asset rich, but cash poor. Any significant drain on income (such as that caused by the issues with AvP) could quite easily have pushed them over the edge of the cliff especially as they significantly ramped up their staffing overheads and quite likely their premises costs as well. Hopefully they are past that danger now, but for sure, they teetered on the edge for a while.

**CptJake**

Dark Severance wrote:
In response to if any of those boxes were retail

KS stuff, well you really think I would show off retail stuff going out knowing that KS are waiting for theirs? You are really forcing us to stop any updates until we fulfil the KS... really...

If they had not stated they were alternating weeks for KS backers and retail/web store customers there would not have been a question. No one is 'forcing them' to stop updates, rather pleading with them for good communications and honesty. Simply labeling the picture "This stack of stuff going out today is for KS backers!'" doesn't seem like a hard fething task. Being asked the logical question when that task was not done is not a decent reason for more petulant whining and moaning.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
They sure as gak have sent out stuff to web store customers and retailers even though "KS are waiting for theirs", and in fact have included those copies in the number given when asked "How many KS copies have shipped?" in an effort to appear to be further along than they actually were.

Shame on them for comments like that.

**Dark Severance**

CptJake wrote:
They sure as gak have sent out stuff to web store customers and retailers even though "KS are waiting for theirs"

Since the Aug 14th update, restocks and retailers have been getting the retail version. They were not shipping anymore of the 'KS' boxes anymore. Technically they also haven't shown shown pictures of retail stuff going out in pictures either, except for the one pallet (which was thin boxes) that was in the video update.

I must of missed it, when did they say they were alternating weeks of shipping?

**CptJake**

Dark Severance wrote:
CptJake wrote:
They sure as gak have sent out stuff to web store customers and retailers even though "KS are waiting for theirs"
Since the Aug 14th update, restocks and retailers have been getting the retail version. They were not shipping anymore of the 'KS' boxes anymore. Technically they also haven't shown shown pictures of retail stuff going out in pictures either, except for the one pallet (which was thin boxes) that was in the video update.

I must of missed it, when did they say they were alternating weeks of shipping?

And before August 14th they were sending out KS copies to web store customers and retailers, and even the current 'retail' version has the KS exclusive resin figures. Basically they are trying to cut cost on the retail version, hoping to sell enough to be able to finish their KS fulfillment. And I never said anything about pictures, I said, accurately, they have misled us on numbers sent out.

I misread (or more accurately attributed 'shipping' into) their statement below:

Hey guys,
I just want to update you, out of step of our, usually quite rigid, weekly updates.
Make of it what you will. We have established that it's quite clear, nothing is enough, unless we actually get your product shipped. That's something we are working on. Sure it's slow, but it needs to be for it to happen and for us to stay around. This whole experience has made us decide that some things simply won't happen again.
1. Facebook
One of those things, unfortunately, has to be that we simply cannot devote our time, in this way, to appearing in public portals (specifically Facebook). This doesn't mean you are not worth our time! We're aware that many want to read between the lines of our actions, comments, etc and that's whjy I'm writing in the way I am... I'm hoping the raw emotion here kind of gets through.
In the grand scheme of things, we're actually a very small company. 30 or so guys, of which only 3 actually have the English skills and knowledge to present information to you is just not enough. We appreciate the support of you all and we want to make it very, very clear that we respect every single one of you; regardless of your stance as you are our pledgers, customers or even just well-wishers. Heck, even the trolls, who may spend time online just to make our lives difficult, they are still a part of the community. I've shaken hands with you guys, wherever I can at events, I've spoken about where we are, what we are feeling and what makes us tick and I take great delight in that!
Sadly, some recent activity has really hit-home the reasons why this way of working, at least while we are shipping the Kickstarter, just isn't possible. We do not have a staff-member that works specifically on answering questions; in the past, we have had people that the community has known are the guys to get hold of. Firstly, Rob (myself), a 'veteran' from the Warzone Resurrection Kickstarter days (I lost a lot of hair back then!). It quickly became too much for me to handle and, as head of sales, I knew that this task just wasn't for me anymore. Every so often, I still get messages and I do deal with them, because I can and a personal, moral, part of me just wants to fix things for people. That's my character. It's been abused in the past by a number of people (to the point where people genuinely questioned my actual existence!) and that has resulted in my pulling out of this task. We then hired Michal Prodosgames, whose account was specifically made not to show his surname as he has an aversion to Facebook and being found there. Annoyingly, due to being reported by an 'unknown individual', he has had to change his account name. Then there is Jim, Jim is our USA salesman, an incredibly valuable member of our team and someone who, in the past, against all odds, has been able to remain level-headed, calm and cool in the face of Kickstarter's most awkward moments. However, this evening, he received some fairly disgusting and personal threats aimed towards him privately; which has led to our emergency writing of this update.
As I am sure you are all aware, enough is enough. We want to say that this IS NOT us burying our head in the sand. We will be contactable. You can PM us on the Alien vs Predator: The Hunt Begins Like page. We will continue to visit Facebook groups, but WE WILL NOT be commenting on any of those groups. We will also continue to look at Beasts of War, we will look at the Lead Adventure forum and we will look at Frothers. Hell, maybe even Dakka Dakka, that well-known cesspit of vitriol and hate!
2. How can we contact Prodos Games then?
You can email us through the usual portals of:
Kickstarter Pledge Queries: Michal.Pawlaczyk@prodos.co.uk
Sales/Events planning: rob.alderman@prodos.co.uk
Customer Services (Replacement parts): agata.mazurek@prodos.co.uk
Manufacturing: sales@prodosgames.com
Alien vs Predator: The Hunt Begins Like Page
Prodos Games Like Page
Mutant Chronicles Like Page
Our webstore Customer Service Email function
We are ALWAYS happy to respond to your queries and will do everything we can to make sure you are sorted. If one of these emails is not responding according to your expectations, please do contact the like page, or simply email again. There is a very good chance that your message has been missed and then buried. This does happen, sadly; but it is very rarely intentional and quite embarrassing to see that it has occurred when it does.
3. Where will we see updates?
Okay, one of the big mistakes from the start was that we have not made a database of emails from the Kickstarter and the pledges made on our website. That was rather silly of us, lesson learnt. However, the updates will be PUBLICLY available for all to see, warts and all, on our new blog on the website (http://prodosgames.com). You will be able to comment on these. However, it protects our staff from having insults hurled at them, when they are doing the best job they can, under quite dire circumstances, with very little in the way of pay off. Our whole website will be going through a transformation to be more user friendly. The blog will not just be AvP, it will be Warzone, expose some interesting stuff from the industry about manufacturing and what we actually do here. We hope for these updates to be daily.
4. Numbers of shipments:
We hate to disappoint people. We're aware we do disappoint people. Our numbers are disappointingly few. Embarrassingly few. This probably comes from not being particularly 'pro' at giving information and knowing exactly what we 'should' be telling people. Every action has a reaction, and all that. Right now, we are still going with the 1 week making Retail copies, 1 week making Kickstarter copies method we mentioned. This has meant we have been able to clear out our retail orders (including a severely delayed shipment to the USA) and will clear some Kickstarter shipments during this week. Importantly, and in the minds of many pledgers on the FB Group, we have just booked in all of the shipments from the 10th and 11th of August that do not have tracking numbers provided by our Courier service. We are currently working on getting those original shipments, placed on the 10th/11th back or claiming some kind of payment back.
We hope that, by the end of this week, we will also be able to claim that much more has been shipped, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
5. Overall feeling at Prodos Games right now:
Actually, we are becoming more and more aware that reaching for the stars can actually be one's downfall. We are looking at going back to roots a little, and looking for slow-expansion, rather than the rapid expansion we sort of imposed on ourselves. We have 2 truly fantastic licenses here. Mutant Chronicles, which has been a dream to work on since Kickstarter and AvP, which we are incredibly excited to develop beyond the realms of Kickstarter. We've helped a great number of companies and aim to work on strengthening those relationships. We don't want to be the company that gets passed the buck, we want to be the company that is resolute, keeps chugging on against the odds (lets face it, most companies would have given up by now, but we are sure that Rob will somehow stay alive if he keeps taking the happy pills!) and one that has formed really honest relationships with other industry stalwarts. Sure, we want plastic injection, sure we want to be the biggest company in Europe based in this commodity, but really, is that what we will really gain from it at this stage?
A further delayed Kickstarter, a hell of a stressed out team here and genuinely no sleep. That's where we are now and that's not where we want to be. We honestly believe that the decisions made in this update will go a long way to helping us retain our sanity and continue (slowly) getting you the best products, service and designs that we can provide.
Cheers/Na Zdrowie!

**Dark Severance**

CptJake wrote:
And before August 14th they were sending out KS copies to web store customers and retailers, and even the current 'retail' version has the KS exclusive resin figures. Basically they are trying to cut cost on the retail version, hoping to sell enough to be able to finish their KS fulfillment.

I don't think it is as clear cut as cutting cost on the retail to generate money to finish KS Fulfillment. I also believe the decision was made for multiple reasons. There are probably some contract fulfillment quota or guarantees set forth with their licensing, possibly to maintain it. It isn't unusual that a license require something being published (publishing could require sales) and/or if enough time passes otherwise it reverts back to the heir company. Unfortunately even though backers have paid for it, those usually won't be enough to qualify it to meet contract requirements. Obviously that is just a guess based on when I have been involved with licensing deals with board games before and probably none of us would see or get a hint of what the contract actually entails.

Yes the obvious reason was to cut costs since they said cost of manufacturing went up so they had to make changes to reduce costs but this had a side effect of creating a different version. They can now fulfill retail orders without technically impacting KS fulfillment, in other words someone getting a copy meant for them. Being a different version means that it has less stuff, thereby giving the overall snowflake feeling back that KS boxes are different than Retail versions. Even though backers got it late, they still get to retain their version theoretically meaning the KS version have more bang for their dollar. So although done for costs, it is sort of a PR move as well as possibly a requirement to meet contract obligations (which they've hinted at before).