Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

No, no, no. The new codex requires you to saturate the field with synapse of die. Not only will your feed bugs kill themselves half the time, the lurkers and hunters will become unresponsive and unpredictable.

This codex requires overlapping layers of synapse. I'm thinking a Tervigon for backfield synapse. Two units of Zooes for midfield synapse and 2 Flyrants for forward synapse is a start. You can replace some of those with other synapse like a deep striking a Trygon Prime for. flyrant and forward synapse or a Tyranid Prime as a midfield/backfield synapse holder.

What's enough Troops; now that Tervigons are a tad more expensive (+20 termagaunts worth) and a little less awesome.

Of course if you are willing to severely limit your codex options you can refuse to take any feeder except for lone models and No hunters except ones that are fearless.

I appreciate your effort to relay all of this info into a more simple format. So after reading your thoughts so far, I am confused because your opening statement was that the general thought is that they have gotten worse, but then you listed all of the things that make them good. So do you think that they are a good army and can be good competitively or not?

Tyranids have the tools to deal with all the top units. I'm just not sure how to get them all in and how to get them in position to work right now.

Horror psychic power just wrecks Riptides. They check on leadership 7 or get pinned.

Exocrine is great against Broadsides and Centurions.

Poisoned little bugs, like hormagants, kill Wraithknights fast.

The bugs have lots of haywire shooting which will down Wave Serpents. They also have a str 8 vector strike which will down all flyers and wave serpents.

The shadow in the warp plays havoc on daemon armies relying on psychic powers. So Screamerstar and flying circus. Death leaped also adds to this by effectively eliminating one Psyker from using powers at least when shadows is nearby.

The tools to deal with all the current meta threats is in the book. I'm just grasping at ghosts trying to figure out how to get it all in and synergizes it right now.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
IMO, the new nids are outclassed in many ways by other codices. It still has some rather strong builds, however.

I should think that a fairly strong framework for a roughly 1750 list would be:

Flyrant
Flyrant

Venomthrope


Termagants(10)
Termagants(10)
Termagants(10)
Termagants(10)

Crone
Crone
Crone

Biovores(3)
Mawloc
Exocrine

I think that the carnifex, blatantly outclassed by the dreadknight, is not a viable option,

How is your army going to keep up with your Flyrants for Synapse ? Once your beyond 12", odds are your army tears itself apart.

One interesting thing that I hadn't noticed before I picked up a copy of the book is that the Hausperex is an Elite choice, rather than Heavy Support like I thought. You can now field MC's in each FoC category, which sounds pretty awesome to me. Here's a quick example with 8 individual MC's:

Flyrant - 230
Flyrant - 230
30 Termagants - 120
30 Termagants - 120
Tervigon - 195
Tervigon - 195
Hausperex - 160
Venomthropes x3 - 135
Dakkafex - 150
Mawloc - 140
Exocrine - 170

TOTAL - 1845

Does anyone think either of the venom cannons or the strangle cannons (stranglethorn, barbed strangler) are worth taking now? They've all gone down in cost by five points, the venom no longer suffer -1 to vehicle damage, and the Pinning on strangle weapons, coupled with SitW, can cause havoc to psyker based units.

That and I've always loved the look of the guns, especially on big MCs like Tyrants and Carnifexes.

I'm thinking that the biovores would work well with the FMCs. The main problem with the Harpy and the Crone is that they are very vunerable to the Quad Gun, which everyone can take.

Biovores can be used to attack the Quad Gun from a safe distance, perhaps even pinning the squad manning it (or even better, killing it)

HQ:


Hive Tyrant - 230 pts
2x TL Brainleech Worm Devourers
Wings

Hive Tyrant - 230 pts
2x TL Brainleech Worm Devourers


Elite:


2x Venomthropes

1x Venomthropes


Troop:


30x Termagants

Tervigon
Regeneration


Fast Attack:


Harpy
Cluster Spines

Harpy
Cluster Spines

Harpy
Cluster Spines


Heavy Support:


Exocrine

Exocrine

3x Biovores


Finding it hard to make any other sort of list come together. With the reduction in points upon most FMCs/MCs, the first impression I got was the Codex is kinda promoting/pushing MC Mash; or Nidzilla. Seems a bit hard NOT to take 2x or 3x of the same thing, i.e. spamming. So, figured Target Saturation might be worth a shot as per the list above; 5x FMCs and 4x regular ones. Shooting list that can fare alright in Combat; can deal with armor, hordes via the pie-plate mania and a fluctuation in AP via the Exocrines for heavier infantry. Or for taking pot-shots at vehicles if nothing else presents itself. A fair amount of utility, I think, although Troops is kinda light. Hence Momma.

Thought about making the 3rd Flier a Crone, but compared the two and found that the Harpy appears to offer more utility in this; does the same as anything else, shouldn't have a problem with fliers given the various amounts of Vector Strikes and 2x Flyrants with TL Brainleech Worm Devourers. The Flyrants should be able to glance an AR 12 Flier to death by themselves according to averages with their guns.

I dunno. Toying around with things, but like aforementioned, it's hard for me to turn away from MC Mash. Not to mention MCs are my favorite unit in the game anyway. Given I tried to do this with the last Codex, this one fares a lot better and seems to kinda reward it.

Also, so far as some things go...not hellbent on keeping Venomthropes, and the Regeneration on Momma was because I had 30 extra points to mess around with even after adding 3x Venomthropes. Had 165 pts, wasn't sure what to do with it and so got some Venomthropes for MC livability - mostly the Harpies. So, technically have 165 pts I wasn't sure what to do with. Venomthropes themselves have Shrouded, and MODELS within 6" get Shrouded; since it specifies models, won't work very well for the 30x Termagants, because I'm sure that doesn't mean one model in range will give the whole unit Shrouded. If I'm thinking right, that definitely means that they are meant to be used in conjunction with MCs.

Momma will likely sit back with the Exocrines and Biovores, and being only ML 1 and unless she roles up a good power, will use the primaris to extend Synapse if needed. Popping out babies to run to other objectives, etc. As for the Harpy - and Crone for that matter - Synapse isn't really that much of a worry. Only Momma in the back with a Venomthrope hiding behind her in area terrain or ruins is the lynchpin for Synapse. The Flyrants are there for extra FMCs and Synapse; which, in my opinion, doesn't really help that much for the Harpies. They're Fearless, for one, and they're LD 10. It'd be kinda hard to fail that Instinctive Behavior. Plus, they're not that survivable and I am not that worried about protecting 150 pt 4+ armor MCs.

Currently looking to see how a less MC oriented army will look, but it seems something of this vein LOOKS good...but we'll have to see. 5x FMCs alone seems a good enough positive.

What I came up with so far. *Shrugs*

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I'm thinking that the biovores would work well with the FMCs. The main problem with the Harpy and the Crone is that they are very vunerable to the Quad Gun, which everyone can take.

Biovores can be used to attack the Quad Gun from a safe distance, perhaps even pinning the squad manning it (or even better, killing it)

Agreed. I think this is another benefit to the Hausperex; it can be brought alongside Biovores to keep your MC count up when your heavy support choices are taken by biovores. Here's an example:

Flyrant-230
Flyrant-230

Termagants x30 - 120
Termagants x30 - 120
Tervigon - 195
Tervigon - 195

Crone - 155
Crone - 155

Hausperex - 160

Biovores x2 - 80
Biovores x2 - 80
Biovores x2 - 80

TOTAL - 1800

DarthDiggler wrote:
Tyranids have the tools to deal with all the top units. I'm just not sure how to get them all in and how to get them in position to work right now.

Horror psychic power just wrecks Riptides. They check on leadership 7 or get pinned.

Exocrine is great against Broadsides and Centurions.

Poisoned little bugs, like hormagants, kill Wraithknights fast.

The bugs have lots of haywire shooting which will down Wave Serpents. They also have a str 8 vector strike which will down all flyers and wave serpents.

The shadow in the warp plays havoc on daemon armies relying on psychic powers. So Screamerstar and flying circus. Death leaped also adds to this by effectively eliminating one Psyker from using powers at least when shadows is nearby.

The tools to deal with all the current meta threats is in the book. I'm just grasping at ghosts trying to figure out how to get it all in and synergizes it right now.

Broadsides are actually very effective against nearly every single Tyranid unit. FMCs? HYMPs. Dozens of gants/gaunts? SMS AND ALSO HYMPs. Don't feel like using missiles? That's ok, your Heavy Rail Rifle is S8 AP1 with 60" range.

How about the Trygon Prime with the Miasmic Cannon? It gives him some extra firepower if you DS him in. It makes him pretty expensive coming out at 255 points.
BUT he pops up with 12 str5 shots from the bioelectric pulse, and then either a blast or template attack with the miasmic cannon which wounds on 2+
I'll be trying it out. I've never been a competitive player so I'm not sure if this would be great or not.

DarthDiggler wrote:
The bugs have lots of haywire shooting which will down Wave Serpents. They also have a str 8 vector strike which will down all flyers and wave serpents.

"Lots of Haywire shooting". We have 3 weapons with Haywire:
- The Crone has 4 missiles
- Hive Guard (who are more expensive and now BS3 instead of 4) get a Haywire gun with an 18" range.
- We have a Template range haywire in Electroshock Grubs.

Your opponent would have to be brain dead or in a coma to let 2 of those get close, since they have to walk across the board now. The last are one shot items from a BS3 Crone (which is not twin linked as Wave Serpents are not Flyers or FMCs).

CleverAntics wrote:
Venomthropes themselves have Shrouded, and MODELS within 6" get Shrouded; since it specifies models, won't work very well for the 30x Termagants, because I'm sure that doesn't mean one model in range will give the whole unit Shrouded.

Shrouded: "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 2 points better than normal."

So, the venomthrope will give an entire unit shrouded if they have at least one model within 6."

Fantastic and very useful thread so far. Thanks!!

Is it just me, or are Mawlocs incredible now? I mean, they have Terror from the Deep... BUT THEY CAN NOW DO IT TWICE (though it has to be in the same spot).

Holy crap, really? You literally get a mulligan if you can't place the Mawloc after the first round of wounds.

A lot of optimism in this thread. I think it's both welcome and admirable.

To me it seems the Nids aren't that far from being a mid-tier army. The fact just is that there are too many unnecessary nerfs and penalties in the book for it to really compete. Many of the lists that seemingly have a lot of stuff have massive problems with synapse. If your only synapse models are 2 Hive Tyrants I'm not sure how the army is supposed to remain functional very long.

It's a pretty crappy deal that if you take four small units of Gants as your troops, like many other armies are doing with their cheap stuff, and just try to hide them and keep them alive, they'll need babysitting from synapse creatures throughout. On the other hand, if you take just one Tervigon and 30 Gants as your troops, not only is it more expensive but that Tervigon has a massive bullseye on its face. Once it blows, it'll blow up the Gaunts its babysitting, and the others will just IB out. So then you decide to take two Tervigons and 60 Gants, and now you're basically spending 620 points on units that won't do anything all game when what you'd actually like to spend on troops is about 160 points. The Tervigons in the previous edition of the codex were so much more efficient in every way imaginable (as described in jy2's post).

 Therion wrote:
A lot of optimism in this thread. I think it's both welcome and admirable.

To me it seems the Nids aren't that far from being a mid-tier army. The fact just is that there are too many unnecessary nerfs and penalties in the book for it to really compete. Many of the lists that seemingly have a lot of stuff have massive problems with synapse. If your only synapse models are 2 Hive Tyrants I'm not sure how the army is supposed to remain functional very long.

As far as my build goes, everything is either Fearless or a Synapse Creature itself outside of Synapse. I have 2x Flyrants and a Tervigon to sit back with the Artillery beasties. My list is posted on this page, too. Flyrants, Harpies, Tervigon and Exocrines. All of which are Fearless, and their IB doesn't do anything particularly negative as Fearless negates most of it. Exocrines doesn't matter; first one doesn't do anything as they're Fearless; second result won't either given I'd likely have them hanging out in area terrain, and getting Stealth would be nice for a 2+; though that'd be hard on a roll of a 6.

Harpies are shooty, so even if they fail their LD of 10, then they're still shooting; just at the closest enemy unit. Which shouldn't be too much of a problem since you should be targeting Infantry anyway. Plus, their gun is 36"; if you take the Stranglethorn Cannon.

As for that build of mine, the only thing I think it'd matter for is Venomthropes and Termagants, but it's not that much of a concern for me. Other builds, I'd see some problems.

Maybe I'm missing something, but that is what it seems like. I've never had Synapse problems in the past, but of course, this is a new book.

 Therion wrote:
A lot of optimism in this thread. I think it's both welcome and admirable.

To me it seems the Nids aren't that far from being a mid-tier army. The fact just is that there are too many unnecessary nerfs and penalties in the book for it to really compete. Many of the lists that seemingly have a lot of stuff have massive problems with synapse. If your only synapse models are 2 Hive Tyrants I'm not sure how the army is supposed to remain functional very long.

It's a pretty crappy deal that if you take four small units of Gants as your troops, like many other armies are doing with their cheap stuff, and just try to hide them and keep them alive, they'll need babysitting from synapse creatures throughout. On the other hand, if you take just one Tervigon and 30 Gants as your troops, not only is it more expensive but that Tervigon has a massive bullseye on its face. Once it blows, it'll blow up the Gaunts its babysitting, and the others will just IB out. So then you decide to take two Tervigons and 60 Gants, and now you're basically spending 620 points on units that won't do anything all game when what you'd actually like to spend on troops is about 160 points. The Tervigons in the previous edition of the codex were so much more efficient in every way imaginable (as described in jy2's post).

As far as cheap objective holders go, you could try out 3 warriors with either a venom cannon or a barbed strangler. The unit is only 100 points, either weapon has a 36" range and the unit provides synapse (I could see units like this being useful if you take biovores).

It seems to me this codex is not meant to have power units.

Example, instead of pimping out all your mcs, why not drown the board in troops with a crap ton of synapse mcs with no upgrades?

If troops went down that drastically then spam them with hard to kill synapse, lots of it.

I watched the frontline battle report and the guy had TWO synapse. Of course he got messed up. That is like running daemons without heralds....

After playing several games with the new codex several things have shined through,

Tervigons. After a little thinking I tried fielding him with as a gunboat. Fielding one with the Miasmic cannon and electroshock grubs. Then outflanking into the opponents backfield.

Crones. These things are amazing if used right. I ran 2 with 2 flyrants for synapse. Mass fielding of FMCs proved to be highly effective as many armies dont have the ability to deal with so many serious targets at once. Jumping from cover to cover and using venomthropes to help increase there save made them much more survivable than most people would think.

Elesctoshock grubs. These little gems proved far more useful than i had expected. They make an amazing deterrent against assaults by dreadnaughts. D3 haywire hits make them think twice I suppose.

Food for thought.

3x3 Warriors is actually a solid investment in troops. Totally self-sufficient and reasonably tough. They were overshadowed before, but now I can see their uses. Maybe even units of 4 so that a Large blast (Riptide) can never hit the whole unit.

Actually, the nerfs to the Hive Tyrant astound me. I played flyrants only 3 times, preferring the durability of Armor 2 tyrants and their Preferred Enemy halo to synergize with hive guard, t-fex, and devilgaunts. It was extremely effective, as good as any flyrant list in tournaments.

That build has had its throat slit, been stabbed in the chest, run over by a car, catapulted into a furnace and its ashes dissolved in acid.

There is only flyrants now. They have been nerfed in a lot of ways, and they offer no synergy with other units now. But the BS increase, and the ability to use powerful psi offensively has a lot of potential. A flyrant in the center of the army spamming Psy Scream may actually kill some troops. It may be able to use the S10, AP 1 shot to kill vehicles that the devourer cannot., or the AP3 blast to kill marines.

I also offer that the thorax swarm is now a viable option as well. Electroshock grubs offer a lot of versatility for killing troops or hurting vehicles from the air, while avoiding cover saves. The other two would have uses as well.

Bonesword/Lashwhip/ TLD may be a viable, expensive build.

The real problem flyrants face is they will probably have more weapons than they can use in a turn. But they will be very versatile, for as long as they live, anyway.

I watched a few games tonight with a Nid player using the new codex against a few lists. One was against a pretty decent grey knights player with what I've heard is a strong list. Lots of vehicles, dreadknights, Stormravens, etc. The Nid player took Deathleaper, a few Exocrines, and the flyer along with Zoanthropes and I think warrior broods.

Granted the GK player hadn't really studied up on the new codex and planned ahead or whatever, but he was absolutely demolished. The Exocrines and Zoanthropes just tore apart his troops, the flyer knocked out his Stormraven, and the rest folded. Grey Knights might just be a bad matchup though what with being a midrange psychic army against a midrange anti-psychic army.

Next game was against Necrons, and though it was a lot closer, Tyranids won again. Wasn't really paying attention to what the Necron player was running, but it seemed to be mostly wraiths and blocks of infantry backed up by Ghost Arks.

I imagine longer range armies like Eldar, Tau and IG may be harder to manage without major casualties, but as far as the mid-range shooting armies, Tyranids seem to do alright.

Mysticdog wrote:
Actually, the nerfs to the Hive Tyrant astound me. I played flyrants only 3 times, preferring the durability of Armor 2 tyrants and their Preferred Enemy halo to synergize with hive guard, t-fex, and devilgaunts. It was extremely effective, as good as any flyrant list in tournaments.

That build has had its throat slit, been stabbed in the chest, run over by a car, catapulted into a furnace and its ashes dissolved in acid.

There is only flyrants now. They have been nerfed in a lot of ways, and they offer no synergy with other units now. But the BS increase, and the ability to use powerful psi offensively has a lot of potential. A flyrant in the center of the army spamming Psy Scream may actually kill some troops. It may be able to use the S10, AP 1 shot to kill vehicles that the devourer cannot., or the AP3 blast to kill marines.

I also offer that the thorax swarm is now a viable option as well. Electroshock grubs offer a lot of versatility for killing troops or hurting vehicles from the air, while avoiding cover saves. The other two would have uses as well.

Bonesword/Lashwhip/ TLD may be a viable, expensive build.

The real problem flyrants face is they will probably have more weapons than they can use in a turn. But they will be very versatile, for as long as they live, anyway.

Being a bit melodramatic aren't we? Non-flying tyrants can still be used, just now 3 tyrant guard are mandatory, not just one and then hope you get Iron Arm for some majority toughness shenanigans (which I never really got since you still only had a 1/3 chance to get iron arm, what happened then if you didn't get it, would you just forfeit the match?)

With that said, you'll need some other way ti protect your tyrant death star, venomthropes come to mind, as well as giving your oppenent other targets to worry about. I've always wondered if it would be viable to run 4 bare bones (or nearly bare bones) hive tyrants in a 2k list. Comes in at 660, 720 if you give them all adrenal glands to make them all faster. Hmmm, I might try running it just for fun...

However, I think Carnifex spam is doomed to failure. Carnifex still have no viable tools for survival, and you can depend on the venomthropes lasting exactly one turn of enemy shooting. Frequently, one unit of shooting.

Any competent army build will have a ton of Str 6+ AP3 or better shots now. Without any way to drop C-fex in range, they are going to be point sinks and slot sinks that will die easily and in many comical ways.

Exocrine will be much more murderous choices for essentially the same price, and t-fex will have a much higher survivability (though also beaten with nerf bat). Trygon have been beaten with the nerf bat's hard as well, but I think the primes will be required for synapse in most builds. As the only synapse that can be safely deployed by DS, they will be able to survive the alpha strike and come up on turn two or three to replace the other dead synapse.

Our synapse has almost no durability anymore. I think 4 units is mandatory at 1500 points, and 5 at 2000. Stuffing these units (which are largely ineffective at offense now) into lists which can still effectively kill will be the challenge.

I am afraid to use tervigons now. Tervs are very easy to pop, and the price is insanely high. It used to be a tactical challenge to keep gants at 6=12" unit they needed to be in combat, but now they cannot be trusted to lead gants at all. Spawned broods need to run as far from mom as possible right from the start.

So that leaves warriors or zoeys, and I think zoanthropes are the only survivable choice. Unfortunately, they compete with the much needed hive guard and venom units for space, and can no longer pod in (another WTF?!?! change). The may mean warriors must be taken, perhaps in small units that can hide in ruins, with maybe a VC or BS around to at least get some threat out of them.

Actually, shrikes might serve the sam function, and use up a slot from a less needed area.

I don't think Harpy or crone will survive against flyers to ever get off their vector strikes, an opponent would need to be incompetent to allow a crone to get within range. However, if the opponent is not playing a competitive list, a flying circus of crones/ flyrants will proabbly dominate on the strength of vectors strikes, templates and smash on vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

which I never really got since you still only had a 1/3 chance to get iron arm, what happened then if you didn't get it, would you just forfeit the match?

Please, I've been seeing this strawman in forums all day.

No, I used armor 2 tyrants, not depending on Iron arm/ Endurance(though grateful as hell and much more aggressive with my tyrants if they got it). Armor 3, ground tyrants wiped off the table on turn 1 or 2 by any competent list/player. I'm sorry, it is just true. Wound on 2's or 3's, ignore 3+ armor weapons abound in the game now. Many ignore cover or can be made to do so. It is nothing to have a dozen or score melta/plasma/las/rocket/cannon shots in a list anymore. Even Str 6-8 or poisoned weapons will get through Armor 3 fairly reliably. With the new horrific effects of IB, no competent opponent will allow a 4 wound, armor 3 tyrant to survive. Stuff 3 TG around it, it doesn't matter. That just makes templates more effective, and increases the cost of the tyrant to what, 300-400 points?

The absurd flying defences are the only way to keep an armor 3 tyrant alive. It is just a fact.

 Badablack wrote:
I watched a few games tonight with a Nid player using the new codex against a few lists. One was against a pretty decent grey knights player with what I've heard is a strong list. Lots of vehicles, dreadknights, Stormravens, etc. The Nid player took Deathleaper, a few Exocrines, and the flyer along with Zoanthropes and I think warrior broods.

Granted the GK player hadn't really studied up on the new codex and planned ahead or whatever, but he was absolutely demolished. The Exocrines and Zoanthropes just tore apart his troops, the flyer knocked out his Stormraven, and the rest folded. Grey Knights might just be a bad matchup though what with being a midrange psychic army against a midrange anti-psychic army.

Next game was against Necrons, and though it was a lot closer, Tyranids won again. Wasn't really paying attention to what the Necron player was running, but it seemed to be mostly wraiths and blocks of infantry backed up by Ghost Arks.

I imagine longer range armies like Eldar, Tau and IG may be harder to manage without major casualties, but as far as the mid-range shooting armies, Tyranids seem to do alright.

Make no mistake, Tyranids can win. Its just that we went from one variety of monobuild to a different one.

Fragile wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
I watched a few games tonight with a Nid player using the new codex against a few lists. One was against a pretty decent grey knights player with what I've heard is a strong list. Lots of vehicles, dreadknights, Stormravens, etc. The Nid player took Deathleaper, a few Exocrines, and the flyer along with Zoanthropes and I think warrior broods.

Granted the GK player hadn't really studied up on the new codex and planned ahead or whatever, but he was absolutely demolished. The Exocrines and Zoanthropes just tore apart his troops, the flyer knocked out his Stormraven, and the rest folded. Grey Knights might just be a bad matchup though what with being a midrange psychic army against a midrange anti-psychic army.

Next game was against Necrons, and though it was a lot closer, Tyranids won again. Wasn't really paying attention to what the Necron player was running, but it seemed to be mostly wraiths and blocks of infantry backed up by Ghost Arks.

I imagine longer range armies like Eldar, Tau and IG may be harder to manage without major casualties, but as far as the mid-range shooting armies, Tyranids seem to do alright.

Make no mistake, Tyranids can win. Its just that we went from one variety of monobuild to a different one.

Indeed. I know 2 flyrants are still auto include. But what about Terivigons and Hive Guard? Those were the other 2 units you saw in any halfway decent tyranid list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just re-read the codex and Hive Tyrants with Tyrant Guard automatically pass LoS. A good boost.

I would put 1 Terv in for a backfield Synapse. Hive Guard are still good despite their nerfs. S8 with Ignore Cover is nice.