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Based on what I have read, I approve of most of theses changes.
Well done GW?

Fragile wrote:
I would put 1 Terv in for a backfield Synapse. Hive Guard are still good despite their nerfs. S8 with Ignore Cover is nice.

Actually in a way hive guard got better. Before you would ignore cover only if it also didn't block LoS. Now you now ignore cover even if your target is not in LoS. At least that was my understanding of 5e's (confusing as hell) rules. Can anyone else verify this?

The odd thing that I liked, is the Ymgarl factor, the fact that I can now have a 2+ save Flyrant is pretty amazing. Also it my just be my love of the model, but I think the Haruspex may have a place in some of my builds.

I think folks are missing the biggest change to Gargoyles. Blinding Venom is incredibly strong, borderline broken. It's poison, so can wound anything, but also uses the normal To Wound roll if it's better. It has Blind, which causes a test for each hit on a unit. It replaces all of your (typically 1) attacks, which makes it ideal for multi-charges. And it all comes on a dirt cheap jump infantry model that comes in swarms of 30.

Even 6 Gargoyles attacking an entire marine unit will Blind them on average (3 hits, 1-2 fails the Blind test). Imagine that across multiple squads, particularly problem units like Screamers/Seer Council. Tau suits are immune, but getting them in combat is victory enough.

If this Codex has nothing else, it has the only reliable Blind in the game.

It's only a small point but; if you can somehow hide your termagaunts from a tervigon, if the Tervigon goes pop, it won't be able to allocate to terms out of LOS.

Carnifexes getting fleet is pretty huge.

i was dishearted at first seeing the dex, because everything i have/play like is no longer viable.. so its relearning the nids all over again for me.

Im thinking that Fex are gonna be more useful, heck even warriors look tempting. Tervigons may get shelved.. gonna try a few but that mass point increase and required 30 gants to field is a bit steep. Mawlocs no longer insta killing fortresses is a bummer but cool double hit. Trygon tunnels might be useful as now a unit comes through, so send 3 carnifex behind a trygon prime, drop a deathleaper in on one side, with your FMC bareing down and now youve crossed the board and forced your ally to either shoot the reserves, or shoot the FMC, either way the carnifexs next turn are coming out and gonna hurt.

this thread is very helpful so far! i look forward to see how everyone tests run stuff.

the exo is a bit upsetting because its suppose to be from the same "pool" as the bio, ya know just big brother type thing, like tervigons are top tier from gants.. well why is it a bio can shoot twice as far as the exo... come on exo should have atleast been 36... but we shall see i have 2. Alot of my models now fight for hvy slots which is a bummer, trygons, mawlocs, exo, carnifex.. I also feel Old One Eye should be a carnifex upgrade, not an HQ slot, that was dishearting. Swarmlord my have to be shelved.. :( my fav unit next to ymgarls.

I'll definitely be trying out a flyrant with twin-linked devourers for the first time later on, for my first flyrant though I built with scything talons, mostly because I love how it looks and always wanted a full cc flyrant!

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Fragile wrote:
I would put 1 Terv in for a backfield Synapse. Hive Guard are still good despite their nerfs. S8 with Ignore Cover is nice.

Actually in a way hive guard got better. Before you would ignore cover only if it also didn't block LoS. Now you now ignore cover even if your target is not in LoS. At least that was my understanding of 5e's (confusing as hell) rules. Can anyone else verify this?

You are correct. Impaler Cannons are S8 Ap4 Assault 2 Homing, Ignores Cover. Homing means you don't need LoS.

I've been thinking about a large blast spam list. I ran them with great success in 5th, and there are certainly weaknesses, but...

Tyrant, HVC
Tyrant, HVC

4 Warriors, Barbed Strangler
4 Warriors, Barbed Strangler
4 Warriors, Barbed Strangler
4 Warriors, Barbed Strangler

2 Carnifexes, Stranglethorn Cannon x2, TLD x1
2 Carnifexes, Stranglethorn Cannon x2, TLD x1
2 Carnifexes, Stranglethorn Cannon x2, TLD x1

If able to fit in some Venomthropes, I would - a 2000 point list would likely have room for 2 groups of 2 as well. The above list is around 1850.

I think this list would do well against most others, excepting airforce lists. Thoughts?

I'm a bit new to flyers, is the Crone the only one that gets str 8 vector strikes? So the Harpy only has a twin linked gun and ability to drop spore mines? where as the Crone has 4 one use missiles and flamer weapon + str 8 vector?

Noctem wrote:
I'm a bit new to flyers, is the Crone the only one that gets str 8 vector strikes? So the Harpy only has a twin linked gun and ability to drop spore mines? where as the Crone has 4 one use missiles and flamer weapon + str 8 vector?

Yes; it's S5 naturally, but a special rule gives it S8 Vector Strikes. The Harpy has a S6 AP5 TLed, Pinning Large Blast gun, can drop mines and can also buy another Large Blast weapon; Cluster Spines which are S5 AP-. Personally, I like the Harpy better. Can do more before it's shot down and is cheaper; only by 5 pts if you take the Cluster Spines, but still. Gonna try a list with 3x Harpies in it with that set up and see how I like it.

 jy2 wrote:


Biovore:
Are you kidding me? The unit that I have loved ever since 4th Ed. tyranids have just gotten better. No, they've actually gotten much better. How so? They are now 5-pts cheaper per and....get this....they now have +1 Wound, +1 Initiative and +1 Attack!!! But it gets even better.

As far people love to claim they are the worse unit ever, the same holds true for pyrovores as well.

That 1 wound bonus 1 attack bonus and 1 initiative bonus matter ALOT. not only they are a bit cheaper, they are 50% more durable against most attacks, gets to strike before I1 guys now (the real heavy hitter), with more AP2 CC attacks, and even when they get beaten they got one extra wound to deal damage with their acid blood.

Honestly, its almost like 2 space marines glued up, packing a heavy flamer and some nasty CC weapon. not a bad choice at all.
Not very effective at range, but if these guys reach your lines-they will do some serious damage.

Draft List so far:

2x Flyrant

2x Venomthrope
2x Zoays (singular synapse relay point)

2x Crone
1x Harpy

2x Dakkafex Brood
2x Mawloc

195 points for troops, and/or drop one harpy for one tervigon (could take miasma cannon, hug rear lines spawn gants to advance forward and provide long range fire support).

Also considering 2x Exocrine+3 Biovores build for HS.

Not too hung up on troop, could attempt to win games by denying, since we don't have any vehicles.

mmmh. May not be a hyper competitive Taudar army, but I do sincerely hope it will be definitely be a strong one.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 jy2 wrote:


Biovore:
Are you kidding me? The unit that I have loved ever since 4th Ed. tyranids have just gotten better. No, they've actually gotten much better. How so? They are now 5-pts cheaper per and....get this....they now have +1 Wound, +1 Initiative and +1 Attack!!! But it gets even better.

As far people love to claim they are the worse unit ever, the same holds true for pyrovores as well.

That 1 wound bonus 1 attack bonus and 1 initiative bonus matter ALOT. not only they are a bit cheaper, they are 50% more durable against most attacks, gets to strike before I1 guys now (the real heavy hitter), with more AP2 CC attacks, and even when they get beaten they got one extra wound to deal damage with their acid blood.

Honestly, its almost like 2 space marines glued up, packing a heavy flamer and some nasty CC weapon. not a bad choice at all.
Not very effective at range, but if these guys reach your lines-they will do some serious damage.

They might have gotten a little bit better....but too bad they still will never see the light of day, not when they have to compete against the likes of hive guards, venomthropes, zoanthropes and the new kid on the block, the haruspex.

SBG wrote:
I've been thinking about a large blast spam list. I ran them with great success in 5th, and there are certainly weaknesses, but...

Tyrant, HVC
Tyrant, HVC

4 Warriors, Barbed Strangler
4 Warriors, Barbed Strangler
4 Warriors, Barbed Strangler
4 Warriors, Barbed Strangler

2 Carnifexes, Stranglethorn Cannon x2, TLD x1
2 Carnifexes, Stranglethorn Cannon x2, TLD x1
2 Carnifexes, Stranglethorn Cannon x2, TLD x1

If able to fit in some Venomthropes, I would - a 2000 point list would likely have room for 2 groups of 2 as well. The above list is around 1850.

I think this list would do well against most others, excepting airforce lists. Thoughts?

Interesting build....but I'd be hesitant to rely the majority of my shooting on large blasts.

But still, 6 carnifexes walking towards the enemy, backed by 2 walkrants can be quite a scary site.

 stormoffires wrote:
i was dishearted at first seeing the dex, because everything i have/play like is no longer viable.. so its relearning the nids all over again for me.

Im thinking that Fex are gonna be more useful, heck even warriors look tempting. Tervigons may get shelved.. gonna try a few but that mass point increase and required 30 gants to field is a bit steep. Mawlocs no longer insta killing fortresses is a bummer but cool double hit. Trygon tunnels might be useful as now a unit comes through, so send 3 carnifex behind a trygon prime, drop a deathleaper in on one side, with your FMC bareing down and now youve crossed the board and forced your ally to either shoot the reserves, or shoot the FMC, either way the carnifexs next turn are coming out and gonna hurt.

this thread is very helpful so far! i look forward to see how everyone tests run stuff.

the exo is a bit upsetting because its suppose to be from the same "pool" as the bio, ya know just big brother type thing, like tervigons are top tier from gants.. well why is it a bio can shoot twice as far as the exo... come on exo should have atleast been 36... but we shall see i have 2. Alot of my models now fight for hvy slots which is a bummer, trygons, mawlocs, exo, carnifex.. I also feel Old One Eye should be a carnifex upgrade, not an HQ slot, that was dishearting. Swarmlord my have to be shelved.. :( my fav unit next to ymgarls.

It's going to take a little getting used to, but veteran tyranid players should get the hang of it in no time. Definitely experiment with the units, using proxies if you have to, before buying the models. I'd hate to see someone get a model, spend the time to build and paint it....only to find out that they don't like how it plays and shelve it.

Razerous wrote:
It's only a small point but; if you can somehow hide your termagaunts from a tervigon, if the Tervigon goes pop, it won't be able to allocate to terms out of LOS.

Carnifexes getting fleet is pretty huge.

Better yet, try to hide your tervigon from the enemy.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
I think folks are missing the biggest change to Gargoyles. Blinding Venom is incredibly strong, borderline broken. It's poison, so can wound anything, but also uses the normal To Wound roll if it's better. It has Blind, which causes a test for each hit on a unit. It replaces all of your (typically 1) attacks, which makes it ideal for multi-charges. And it all comes on a dirt cheap jump infantry model that comes in swarms of 30.

Even 6 Gargoyles attacking an entire marine unit will Blind them on average (3 hits, 1-2 fails the Blind test). Imagine that across multiple squads, particularly problem units like Screamers/Seer Council. Tau suits are immune, but getting them in combat is victory enough.

If this Codex has nothing else, it has the only reliable Blind in the game.

Great tip! Thanks for sharing.

That definitely makes them an improvement from before.

 sandant wrote:
The odd thing that I liked, is the Ymgarl factor, the fact that I can now have a 2+ save Flyrant is pretty amazing. Also it my just be my love of the model, but I think the Haruspex may have a place in some of my builds.

The Ymgarl factor only affects the Tyranid player's Assault phase so it's not as good as I thought initially. Yes, I had dreams of my flyrant flying around with a 2+ save against Tau firepower. Alas, it just wasn't meant to be. Sigh.

Yeah, the Haruspex model is really cool. Whether I like him or not, I'm going to have at least 1 in my army.

anyone know where in the rule book it says you HAVE to roll for reserves on turn 2? or you can wait to roll for stuff on turn 3? this is for using the tunnel on the trygon, since units can not use it till turn 3...

any Jy2, im not saying its not something that cant be overcomed, just will take some time. Im just a little dishearted after finishing my awesome swarmlord to find hes gonna make a good shelf decor in small games. He use to be my MVP at local tournys, him and ymgarls. always hold a special place in my heart :-p

 iGuy91 wrote:
Based on what I have read, I approve of most of theses changes.
Well done GW?

Most of the tyranid players actually don't approve of the changes. However, what is done is done. We will have to live with the new codex for the next few years so we need to learn how to adapt to this new codex. That's all I am trying to show....that the new codex isn't as bad as most would think. You just have to re-adjust your expectations and learn tyranids from the ground up again. This would actually be easier for the newer players to do than the veteran tyranid players.

 stormoffires wrote:
anyone know where in the rule book it says you HAVE to roll for reserves on turn 2? or you can wait to roll for stuff on turn 3? this is for using the tunnel on the trygon, since units can not use it till turn 3...

any Jy2, im not saying its not something that cant be overcomed, just will take some time. Im just a little dishearted after finishing my awesome swarmlord to find hes gonna make a good shelf decor in small games. He use to be my MVP at local tournys, him and ymgarls. always hold a special place in my heart :-p

You can find the rule for Reserves on p.124 of the BRB.

Yeah, that's why the veteran players are going to take it harder than the newer players. What once used to work for us now doesn't. We really need to change our mindset with regards to the new Tyranids and relearn them from the ground up. Re-adjust your expectations and I believe that you can still achieve success with the codex as long as you are willing to keep an open mind.

Deshkar wrote:
Draft List so far:

2x Flyrant

2x Venomthrope
2x Zoays (singular synapse relay point)

2x Crone
1x Harpy

2x Dakkafex Brood
2x Mawloc

195 points for troops, and/or drop one harpy for one tervigon (could take miasma cannon, hug rear lines spawn gants to advance forward and provide long range fire support).

Also considering 2x Exocrine+3 Biovores build for HS.

Not too hung up on troop, could attempt to win games by denying, since we don't have any vehicles.

mmmh. May not be a hyper competitive Taudar army, but I do sincerely hope it will be definitely be a strong one.

You need more Synapse on the ground.

With regards to your list, PM sent.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
IMO, the new nids are outclassed in many ways by other codices. It still has some rather strong builds, however.

I should think that a fairly strong framework for a roughly 1750 list would be:

Flyrant
Flyrant

Venomthrope


Termagants(10)
Termagants(10)
Termagants(10)
Termagants(10)

Crone
Crone
Crone

Biovores(3)
Mawloc
Exocrine

I think that the carnifex, blatantly outclassed by the dreadknight, is not a viable option,

You need more synapse on the ground. Synapse nowadays is even more vital than in previous editions. You CAN'T win if you don't have enough synapse in your army (unless you can table your opponent every time).

 Kanluwen wrote:
Isn't Deathleaper an HQ?

Yes he is.

 airmang wrote:
Jy2 don't forget that Shrikes can take flesh hooks now. Even though they're not the best unit they can flush out units in cover. Also I would see lash whips as a bonus now as before it only lowered the I of models in base to base, so you would still get hit by models further away. Now you just go before all the models in the unit. Oh and one of the biggest Pro's for all the monstrous creatures is the addition of fleet from adrenal glands! It's HUGE! (IMHO)

Flesh hooks help but they're quite expensive.

Lash whips can be both better or worse depending on the situation. Let's say you charge a daemon prince. Well, now only the models in your unit with the lash whips will be attacking before the DP. The other guys without will be attacking after it instead.

And then there's terrain. Without flesh hooks, what happens when you charge the Daemon Prince in terrain? You then strike at I1 after the DP and have to suffer its attacks first. However, with the old lash whips, you will still get a chance to fight as everyone will be striking at I1.

i actually just flipped open my BRB and found the rule about reserves on the first page :p So then Trygon tunnels are still worthless as there is no way to have a unit held past turn 2 without failing a reserve roll. hmm wonder if they ment that or not. Ruling on the trygon page is fuzy and does not clearly state you can hold a unit in reserves till the tunnel is made.

After some JY2 advice, tentatively revised to:

HQ 460
Flyrant
Flyrant

Elite 190
Zoey
Zoey
2 Venomthrope

Troop 455
Tervigon
30 Termagants
10 Termagants
3 Warriors + Barbed

Fast Attack 155
Crone

Heavy Support 580
2 Daffexes
Mawloc
Mawloc

1840
8 Monstrous Creatures (3 FMCs)
6 Synaptic Points
4 Troops with ability to spawn more.


Considering dropping the Warrior+Mawlocs for 1 more Terma brood and 2 Exocrines, will have to see how the Mawlocs do first.

-----------------------------------

I'm actually finding it very difficult to go with a balanced list for this codex, it seems to be pushing me towards extreme Nidzilla spam for maximum threat saturation.
Gonna try get some games soon, perhaps tomorrow, really looking forward to see batreps or army lists of how others are approaching this codex.

Yeah, they meant it. It was like this also in the last edition. Same with the Lictor's Reserve bonuses last edition. You get +1 to your reserves, but only if the lictor was already on the board. However, the lictor had to start off in reserves last edition. Thus, you had to hope that he would come in only to be able to use his bonus on Turn 3 at the earliest.

 jy2 wrote:
Yeah, they meant it. It was like this also in the last edition. Same with the Lictor's Reserve bonuses last edition. You get +1 to your reserves, but only if the lictor was already on the board. However, the lictor had to start off in reserves last edition. Thus, you had to hope that he would come in only to be able to use his bonus on Turn 3 at the earliest.

lovely so trygons are useless... guess they can by mawlocs now :-p

A Flyrant with psychic scream can fly up to a Daemon Prince and hit it with the scream. The Prince will be in shadows range and will make a 2d6+2 leadership check at leadership 6 because of shadows.

A Flyrant with Warp Blast can zoom up 24" to get LOS to a Prince on turn 1 and hit it with a str 10 ap 2 warp blast to instant kill it.

DarthDiggler wrote:
A Flyrant with psychic scream can fly up to a Daemon Prince and hit it with the scream. The Prince will be in shadows range and will make a 2d6+2 leadership check at leadership 6 because of shadows.

A Flyrant with Warp Blast can zoom up 24" to get LOS to a Prince on turn 1 and hit it with a str 10 ap 2 warp blast to instant kill it.

only downside is MCs only gets 2 shots, so this would probably be great on a melee based flyrant but a dakflyrant will loose out on one of his guns. interesting idea tho

So Mawloc is risky but seems better than a Trygon at this point?

Looks like there are only a couple of decisions to be made in each FOC slot for competitive tyranid armies...

HQ: One or two Twin-devourer flyrants? If one, do you take the Deathleaper?

Elite: What mix of venomthropes and zoanthropes? How many models in each unit?

Troops: a few big squads of termagants with tervigons or many small squads of termagants? What proportion of your 'gants take devourers?

Fast Attack: How many crones? Do you want some spore mines?

Only Heavy Support feels like you have a bunch of real options to choose between.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Based on what I have read, I approve of most of theses changes.
Well done GW?

This! After some very pessimistic comments before the codex release, I think there will be some viable builds. Maybe not top tier.

 jy2 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
MM I'm a little tired so correct me if I am wrong, one of the Harpy weapons is used during the movement phase (Spore mine cysts), as is VS (Ok so only STR 5 VS). Assuming it is swooping it can then 'run' off the board if positioned correctly and enter ongoing reserves.

I thought there was a restriction on entering and exiting per turn to stop a 'rinse and repeat' but I can't find it, it is possible it is under the normal flyer rules and has been missed from a FMC point. Of course, this is all dependant on enemy units being in a 'useful' position (Generally in your deployment zone), and ending your movement very close to the table edge, angled ready to run off. At worst, you can only leave every 2nd turn.

Assuming all the rules are correct however, It will probably be FAQd out - As you now have a near invincible unit.

Correct, it can drop its spore mine cysts, vector-strike and then fly off the board all at the same time. It just can't fly off the table if it just came in from Reserves (the BRB FAQ'd it so that you can't come in and leave the table on the very same turn), so no, it is not invincible.

Ahah in the FAQ, I knew it was somewhere


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McNinja wrote:
Is it just me, or are Mawlocs incredible now? I mean, they have Terror from the Deep... BUT THEY CAN NOW DO IT TWICE (though it has to be in the same spot).

Holy crap, really? You literally get a mulligan if you can't place the Mawloc after the first round of wounds.

I think the point is they could pretty much only do it twice a game anyway. Now there less points for being bad, but they were taken as a high AP option - depending on the set up there are now other options. It's more in the remit of killing back sitting heavy weapon groups, its more effective to hit them with a high AP blast than pop pop pop with your TL dev. Of course now you can just take a Exo.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Backlash wrote:
After playing several games with the new codex several things have shined through,

Tervigons. After a little thinking I tried fielding him with as a gunboat. Fielding one with the Miasmic cannon and electroshock grubs. Then outflanking into the opponents backfield.

Crones. These things are amazing if used right. I ran 2 with 2 flyrants for synapse. Mass fielding of FMCs proved to be highly effective as many armies dont have the ability to deal with so many serious targets at once. Jumping from cover to cover and using venomthropes to help increase there save made them much more survivable than most people would think.

Elesctoshock grubs. These little gems proved far more useful than i had expected. They make an amazing deterrent against assaults by dreadnaughts. D3 haywire hits make them think twice I suppose.

Food for thought.

Interesting note about the Tervigon, It always bothered me how he was great for spawning, and shocking at everything else, and I do like the idea of outflanking it now.

Crones - Much as I expected - Did you find they drew more fire away from the FHT, or people still chose FHT as a primary air target? I don't think personally I want Venomthropes supporting crones.

Hi guys
New to Tyranids here.After I heard about the rumor that new Tyranid will be released,I have a spark in myself and I began collection old school nids (From the Tick-head zoans,to the old Warriors,and Screamer Carnifex) Sooo,how do I keep up with the new release,From what I have read in the Codex the Haruspex is a nice unit.Any tips on starting Tyranids with the new Codex?

Thanks!

The Swarm Box is a huge deal and will get you started, along with buying a Hive Tyrant!

Noctem wrote:
The Swarm Box is a huge deal and will get you started, along with buying a Hive Tyrant!

Yeah,I already have that,along with a Carnifex kit and the Old Screamer Carnifex,I already have a tyrant too but its the old one and looks so small.

Hmm, I'd look into the Harpy/Hive Crone kit then and mmaybe a Trygon/Mawloc too!