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after attending two tournments that allowed titans and Escalation units, etc, both venues have concluded that Escalation, or at least ranged Destroyer weapons, has no place in a tournament setting. It basically comes down to who has the ready money to purchase titans, etc and then who goes first.

any thoughts?

Just pick one of the bigger thread on this sub-forum, you will get your answer. Just get a soda and popcorn for the read.

Well, in our bimonthly tournaments we don't allow D weapons and this will stay as it is for a while. Not sure if its ad infinitum.

My store runs a Tournament over the course of 3 months (1 day a week, max of 2 games). Escalation, Stronghold Assault, Forgeworld, and Dataslates are not allowed. Codices, and Codex Supplements only.

I ran a tournament allowing everything and it won't all right. I had an in depth write up of it that I did. Hard to copy web links with an iPhone. I'll as it in when I get home tonight. The gist of it was that the revenant and war hound Titan were fine with only he modification of making their large blasts, small blasts. The C'tan shard was a pain, but once you got used to fighting it, there are ways to contain it.

All battlereports about games from tournament using escalation basically read "yeah, and then I killed their titan and proceeded to shoot everything else that survived the explosion" or "I failed to kill their titan/voidshields and it then killed mine. He then proceeded to shoot everything that survived the explosion dead".

Games are usually decided by no more than:
1) Getting first turn
2) Not failing to kill all the void shields and the opposing titan

All other units, terrain, objectives, even the very choice of codex are largely irrelevant.

We had a local tournament that allowed Escalation, it was so unpopular that they're never doing it again.

anygot reports from adepticon?

they had a 40k tourney that was all in alowed... might shed some more liight on the subjet

 Jidmah wrote:


All other units, terrain, objectives, even the very choice of codex are largely irrelevant.

QFT .
Our last tournament top 2 was eldar vs eldar both with identical list and ravers. The one that won was the one who passed more dodge saves and who was lucky to take down a void shield with a venom. He also went first. Third guy had the same list as the one from place 1 and 2 , but had lower small points , because his first game was a buy and fourth guy who lost to him was an eldar/deldar player without a titan , who tried to put his baron star in reservs and spread jet bikes and vypers to avoid templates , but forgot titans can target two different targets unlike normal vehicles.

Escalation is probably biggest mistake GW has made in my recollection. However, I am rather proud of how the tournament organizers came together and collectively worked to prevent it from destroying competitive play.

That being said. Imperial Knights seem like a workable super heavy and if future releases resemble them in balance, I might not mind them nearly as much. Save for ranged str D weapons...especially templates.

 gardeth wrote:
Escalation is probably biggest mistake GW has made in my recollection. However, I am rather proud of how the tournament organizers came together and collectively worked to prevent it from destroying competitive play.

That being said. Imperial Knights seem like a workable super heavy and if future releases resemble them in balance, I might not mind them nearly as much. Save for ranged str D weapons...especially templates.

Which TO's? they were allowed in one section that was used as overflow at Adepticon, has there been any other major Tournaments since the december release and now?

trying to allow one thats weak but dissalowing others that are stronger? ban all or none mate, you cant have half and half.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 gardeth wrote:
Escalation is probably biggest mistake GW has made in my recollection. However, I am rather proud of how the tournament organizers came together and collectively worked to prevent it from destroying competitive play.

That being said. Imperial Knights seem like a workable super heavy and if future releases resemble them in balance, I might not mind them nearly as much. Save for ranged str D weapons...especially templates.

Which TO's? they were allowed in one section that was used as overflow at Adepticon, has there been any other major Tournaments since the december release and now?

trying to allow one thats weak but dissalowing others that are stronger? ban all or none mate, you cant have half and half.

Doing it this way you would end up with the weaker ones only.

 Happyjew wrote:
My store runs a Tournament over the course of 3 months (1 day a week, max of 2 games). Escalation, Stronghold Assault, Forgeworld, and Dataslates are not allowed. Codices, and Codex Supplements only.

Some things would just need to be scaled around to help the game a bit, like maybe keep SD off of ranged and as a melee only. Ranged SD can go to S10 AP1 ignores cover. Still fearsome, but would hopefully steer away from one turn games.

Nope all str D can cop the nerf bat. and i think thats fair, all or none. except it would be Str10 ap1 ignores cover instant death, AB and FB. this way things that should die to 1 hit are dead. those that have EW dont get one shot. there is probably a couple of other things that SHOULD go in there i didnt think of off the top of my head though

he only consequence of this is a) reaver titan then lets rip on your scoring units, all are dead.... aaand now your back at square 1.

I keep getting the feeling, based on poster comments, that people are still using 4th Ed D Weapon rules rather than the current edition. Current Str D fails to kill anything on a 1, deals a handful of wounds only to models hit on a 2-5, and deals a bunch of wounds to models hit on a 6. That's pretty nerfed compared to the original version, which seems to be what everyone posting is referencing.

If spaced correctly, most units might lose 2-3 models to a D-plate, as the overkill does not carry over to the rest of the unit. D Weapons are more deadly to larger, single model units than infantry blobs.

Or is that where the fear is? Because D Weapons are more deadly to Death Stars, and this edition is the "Death Star" edition?

SJ

 Jidmah wrote:
All battlereports about games from tournament using escalation basically read "yeah, and then I killed their titan and proceeded to shoot everything else that survived the explosion" or "I failed to kill their titan/voidshields and it then killed mine. He then proceeded to shoot everything that survived the explosion dead".

Games are usually decided by no more than:
1) Getting first turn
2) Not failing to kill all the void shields and the opposing titan

All other units, terrain, objectives, even the very choice of codex are largely irrelevant.

I hear what you are saying...
on the other hand when there isn't escalation I just see the top games being decided by who rolled bad and lost their 2++ save star unit and who didn't...

Jeffer, its more that when strD hits a vehicle its auto explodes result, no saves no 1 to miss them just BAM bye bye. thats where its particularly nasty.

Under 6E, Str D is slightly less effective against certain targets. However they have become far more effective versus a majority of units, most importantly against the ones that are needed to counter the D-weapon platform. Escalation is fundamentally broken as it forces you to tailor lists against a single model - because if you don't get first turn those anti-armour weapons are going boom.
What's worse is that there's no real game mechanic available to counter D-weapons. For some reason only Eldar get to save against them, and that save is often on units with their own especially strong weapons. Everyone else pretty much has to get first turn or suck it up and explode.

If GW were going to disallow invulnerable saves against Str D, they should have at least returned cover saves against them. We already have many weapons able to ignore those, having one weapon able to be the best of both worlds just dilutes the tactical aspect of the game and makes things less fun for everyone.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, in our bimonthly tournaments we don't allow D weapons and this will stay as it is for a while. Not sure if its ad infinitum.

D weapons are one of the few counter to rerollable invuln BS though

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
Nope all str D can cop the nerf bat. and i think thats fair, all or none. except it would be Str10 ap1 ignores cover instant death, AB and FB. this way things that should die to 1 hit are dead. those that have EW dont get one shot. there is probably a couple of other things that SHOULD go in there i didnt think of off the top of my head though

he only consequence of this is a) reaver titan then lets rip on your scoring units, all are dead.... aaand now your back at square 1.

So you nerf Nids even more then. Not fair at all.

Saying D weapons are good because they counter death stars is like saying amputation is good because it cures ingrown toenails.

Davor wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
Nope all str D can cop the nerf bat. and i think thats fair, all or none. except it would be Str10 ap1 ignores cover instant death, AB and FB. this way things that should die to 1 hit are dead. those that have EW dont get one shot. there is probably a couple of other things that SHOULD go in there i didnt think of off the top of my head though

he only consequence of this is a) reaver titan then lets rip on your scoring units, all are dead.... aaand now your back at square 1.

So you nerf Nids even more then. Not fair at all.

how does that nerf nids more than anyone else?

My guess is that a Tyranid MC is pretty likely to survive 1 Destroyer hit currently, but with Instant Death it doesn't matter how many wounds you have, on a 2+ you're dead.

yup. either way, using Escalation or the Aquila Strongpoint in tournaments basically turns the game into who can spend more and who goes first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gardeth wrote:
Escalation is probably biggest mistake GW has made in my recollection. However, I am rather proud of how the tournament organizers came together and collectively worked to prevent it from destroying competitive play.

I disagree. Escalation is fine... for friendly games or a campaign. However, for tournaments, Escalation is unnecessary.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
My guess is that a Tyranid MC is pretty likely to survive 1 Destroyer hit currently, but with Instant Death it doesn't matter how many wounds you have, on a 2+ you're dead.

are the current nid lists with the new codex MC spam anymore? is that even a thing? i thought carnifex's were more around but the old spam of the 6 wound beasties was dead with the new codex,

by comparison if i were to take my version of those MC, the good old hellbrute, oh wait its gone in 1 shot anyway is a walker, oh my version of the carnifex, thats a vehicle too.

and this leads to how all those MC's and Vehicles need their rules re done to be equivilants even it it means vehicles get toughness and wounds and an imunity to poison or something... because as it stands all those dreads are a total waste of time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

viewfinder wrote:
yup. either way, using Escalation or the Aquila Strongpoint in tournaments basically turns the game into who can spend more and who goes first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gardeth wrote:
Escalation is probably biggest mistake GW has made in my recollection. However, I am rather proud of how the tournament organizers came together and collectively worked to prevent it from destroying competitive play.

I disagree. Escalation is fine... for friendly games or a campaign. However, for tournaments, Escalation is unnecessary.

tournaments have always been whoever spends the most wins, those guys always take the latest and greatest...

well except the winner for adepticon haha, a $400 ish list... here is a link

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/04/40k-unbeatable-list-adepticon-winning.html

 PrinceRaven wrote:
My guess is that a Tyranid MC is pretty likely to survive 1 Destroyer hit currently, but with Instant Death it doesn't matter how many wounds you have, on a 2+ you're dead.

See, I wouldn't have a problem with MC's lack of survivability if Gargantuans were more resilient to D weapons. As it is, a Heirophant is fairly easy to drop for a D equipped equivalent Titan, and even cheaper superheavies carrying single D weapons can lay significant hurt on it before it has the chance to fire back. Gargantuans should be Tyranids safety net against D weapons, something to focus those guns on. As with all things Tyranids, they cocked that up.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
My guess is that a Tyranid MC is pretty likely to survive 1 Destroyer hit currently, but with Instant Death it doesn't matter how many wounds you have, on a 2+ you're dead.

are the current nid lists with the new codex MC spam anymore? is that even a thing? i thought carnifex's were more around but the old spam of the 6 wound beasties was dead with the new codex

Tervigon spam is dead and buried, but you still need to take a lot of MCs with the new dex. In fact, lists generally field even more multi-wound models than the old ones thanks to the massive Instinctive Behaviour nerf. All Synapse creatures are multi-wound models and MCs are generally affected less by IB.
Plus even a 4 wound Carnifex or Hive Tyrant has a better than 50% chance to survive a single Destroyer hit.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
My guess is that a Tyranid MC is pretty likely to survive 1 Destroyer hit currently, but with Instant Death it doesn't matter how many wounds you have, on a 2+ you're dead.

are the current nid lists with the new codex MC spam anymore? is that even a thing? i thought carnifex's were more around but the old spam of the 6 wound beasties was dead with the new codex

Tervigon spam is dead and buried, but you still need to take a lot of MCs with the new dex. In fact, lists generally field even more multi-wound models than the old ones thanks to the massive Instinctive Behaviour nerf. All Synapse creatures are multi-wound models and MCs are generally affected less by IB.
Plus even a 4 wound Carnifex or Hive Tyrant has a better than 50% chance to survive a single Destroyer hit.

fair enough but as is, you survive i die, so a medium will need to be found and i agree on that.
because whilst you have have 50% chance to survive everything in my arsenal is 100% guaranteed dead by a single hit no option to even save.
What would you propose.

Which is why I think SD should sort of be a melee only thing. Being able to drop it from across the table is just too much.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
fair enough but as is, you survive i die, so a medium will need to be found and i agree on that.
because whilst you have have 50% chance to survive everything in my arsenal is 100% guaranteed dead by a single hit no option to even save.
What would you propose.

Keeping D Weapons outside of tournaments and in Apocalypse where they belong.

Also, Helbrutes should be cheaper.

Again though that means i have to kite some walker with a tank that then CANT SHOOT cos it moved because the damn thing can follow it around. and if it catches up with it good night gracie, so no a medium between StrD and something better than basic Str 10 ap1, that works between Mellee and Ranged.

Thats the fine line GW should be looking to walk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
fair enough but as is, you survive i die, so a medium will need to be found and i agree on that.
because whilst you have have 50% chance to survive everything in my arsenal is 100% guaranteed dead by a single hit no option to even save.
What would you propose.

Keeping D Weapons outside of tournaments and in Apocalypse where they belong.

a D weapon though is a more powerful version of the other stuff, the catch is Those weapons are now in normal 40k, those weapons are there because the models are now in norm 40k, so really, they are there to stay....