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I feel that CSM and Tyranids both suffer from a codex that is written without clear intent or purpose. Both codices seem to be written from the perspective of throwing everything against the wall and seeing what sticks. Hey, they aren't bad armies! Look at the Heldrake and Hive Crone! Ignore the Mutilators and Pyrovores that have absolutely no thought thrown into how they are supposed to work on the table.

On top of that the Space Marine stat line no longer cuts it but they still get charged a premium for it. T4 3+ used to mean something and was rather survivable, now though their is an abundance of armor ignoring weapons that make armies rely on invulnerable saves and if you can't bring massed invul saves you may as well leave the unit on the shelf.

Last both of these armies lack Divination, it has been touched on but seriously, how many of the top armies and top list rely on Divination? How much of a force multiplier is Divination that everyone who can take it does take it. Everyone tries to hammer it in with allies or just taking an inquisitor. I think the access to Divination defines an armies ability to compete more than anything else.

The fact that CSM can't get divination isn't the problem. Its that divination itself is the problem.

Its one of those mistakes GW makes where they don't foresee the power of a rule/ability, and as such don't give it out to everyone equally. Then it gets spammed, and you suddenly hear the cries of the "have nots", and its is somewhat justifiable. When all races don't have access to all the BB powers immediately brings bias into the game, regardless of fluff or not.

My CSM army is still great fun and not very predictable in that Its a mix of shooty and assaulty. However, I can see how some builds would have issues in the current rules sets. But I agree with others, its not so much a CSM issue as its a 6th edition core rules issue.

CSM and Eldar are both good examples of why Phil Kelly is not as good a codex writer as many people seem to think. Internal balance is bad, with the most popular (best) options in Codex CSM arecultists, cheap sorcerers, nurgle aligned marines, and heldrakes. Eldar has problems with balance (and overpowered synergy with the DE codex) with the Howling Banshees useless and Wave serpeants death machines. Meanwhile, the most flexable and fluffiest mechanic, Battle Focus, came from Mat Ward.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
CSM and Eldar are both good examples of why Phil Kelly is not as good a codex writer as many people seem to think. Internal balance is bad, with the most popular (best) options in Codex CSM arecultists, cheap sorcerers, nurgle aligned marines, and heldrakes. Eldar has problems with balance (and overpowered synergy with the DE codex) with the Howling Banshees useless and Wave serpeants death machines. Meanwhile, the most flexable and fluffiest mechanic, Battle Focus, came from Mat Ward.

Kelly's fluff has always been his strong point, and even that seems a bit short in these books. I respect the guy (actually as strange as it sounds I respect all of the devs mostly because they've got a job I dream of having someday..maybe....after I move to England and stalk Kirby while selling my blood, plasma and at least one kidney for food) but he's been coming up a bit short as of late. I think this release schedule is doing bad things to the quality we're used to honestly..

Csm codex ain't really bad. Most units are fine. Csm themselves, bikes, melta-drop termies or raptors, maulerfiends, predators, apostles. And there are lots of really good units like spawns, oblits, lords and sorcs, drakes, plague marines, cultists. And as every codex, there are underpowered units like a worse version of a spiky landraider, devastators, overpriced forgefiend and defiler spiky master of the forge (however, i see his curse shutting down all that punishers for good). And purely worseless due to being horifically overpriced and having nothing to do units like possessed and warp talons.

Csm can still put strong lists and have tools that noone else can provide. Like Nurgle spawns + sorc/lord or best-scoring-ever - zombies.

Not being constantly updated like their loyalist's counterpart, csm are still a solid army. Yep, it's gona be hard to deal with tau, eldar or daemons but hey, everyone has problems vs them. It's not csm's fault that 'top-tier' armies have such poor ballance. Compare them to more ballanced armies and you'll see that they're totally fine.

Oh my days...this thread.

Chaos still have good units and can still be a threat to top tier lists.

What it does have is limited and fleshing out an entire army from the CSM codex alone is difficult.
New ideas help, doing things your opponent didn't predict/expect.

CSM needs allies to be competitive. Daemons help hugely.
The AM release may bring new possibilities and new CSM/AM builds.

CSM suffers from a lack of armywide buffs that could help them. Instead of removing the negatives from their army, the codex added on charts and abilities that could really hurt you at critical times (forcing challenges, spawn roles, ect.).

Black Legion didn't help, but Crimson Slaughter did. It gave the army a buff (even if Fear isn't really much) and access to tools to make CSM more competitive, even by a smidgen.

Divination isn't really all that helpful to CSM when you don't have anything really worth dakka-ing up...

Re-roll misses on a cultist blob? Or 8 shots from a Forgefiend? Or those 2 Lascannon shots from your Obliterators?

That's why people were doing slightly better with Invisibility and Belakor.

Also, since Chaos has no real mode of (reliable) transport, maybe they should just be Castled. I've been looking into Fortifications. They even get their own 'Chaos Bastion' model, so that's a big clue there.

Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are £30 for five minis.

I agree that csm are struggling but they can still put out the hurt on most, even in a semi competitive scene.

They do need some buffs though. I would like to see:

- Legion rules
- Helbrutes given the daemon rule (but no WS/BS reduction - don't even know why thats a rule)
- Generic daemon weapons (upgraded by the models mark)
- Icons no longer able to be sniped out
- Land raider variant exclusive to chaos
- Up mauler and forge fiends to ws/bs 4
- Points drop on possessed and give them power weapons/beasts as standard (or at least options to get it guaranteed)
- Open topped rhino option
- Grenades or daemonic equivalent for warp talons


Thats all I can think of for now.

hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.
Why? Because they are £30 for five minis.

Even if we hold such cynicism to be true, it's still not enough to get people to buy/play Possessed.

hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are £30 for five minis.

Sooo, its in final bad that they made the unit (somewhat) useful? Because, good work would be not want to sell you models?

Every time something new is released the CSM feels more and more like a guinea pig codex. We have absolutely terrible book powers, and being forced to give up a book power if you take a mark is just horrible.

CSM is the only new codex without access to divination (No I do not count $40 DLC as having access to divination), even though one of the named characters literally invented Divination in the Space Marine ranks.

Anybody who says that CSM is not bad either:
1. Does not play CSM
2. Does not play against anything resembling a competitive nature.

No, 20 man blobs of CSM with every upgrade you can put on them is not a good tactic.

Heldrakes are the only amazing thing in the book, but if you run more than 1 of them you will be called TFG 1000x more than the guy who brings 5 wave serpents. The amount of interwebz hate against them and the entire CSM codex is beyond annoying. I had a guy with a Centurion-star with Tigurius complain that my spawn were "too good". I had a complete White Scars spam player complain the black mace is "stupidly underpriced for what it does" and that it's "dumb that plague marines can take 2 special weapons." CSM get the most hate all around.

One of the biggest problems is the lack of army-wide buffs. Look at Abaddon, he can beat up anything short of a Greater Daemon but he is mostly left to the shelf because he doesn't buff his army in some significant way like ALL the SM characters do.

Also look at the fact that we have no good way at all to get troops up the field, and no way to mitigate DS scatter (dimensional key has probably never worked for anybody at all since the codex came out).

Once I started playing Daemons I realize how much they do everything CSM does but BETTER. A 9 pt daemonette is worth a lot more than a 13 point CSM in game terms.

CSM only have hard showings in tournaments because they are reserved to being taken as allies simply for the Heldrake and/or a Black Mace DP. PURE CSM do not have any chance of winning anything significant at all.

 herpguy wrote:


CSM is the only new codex without access to divination (No I do not count $40 DLC as having access to divination), even though one of the named characters literally invented Divination in the Space Marine ranks.

.

Tyranids don't have any access to divinitation, not even through allies.

We in fact, don't get any of BRB tables.

Instead we have access to a single, small, sad little chart with nothing particularly impressive.

Let me feel for you bro, we'll cry together.

 Kain wrote:

 herpguy wrote:


CSM is the only new codex without access to divination (No I do not count $40 DLC as having access to divination), even though one of the named characters literally invented Divination in the Space Marine ranks.

.

Tyranids don't have any access to divinitation, not even through allies.

We in fact, don't get any of BRB tables.

Instead we have access to a single, small, sad little chart with nothing particularly impressive.

Let me feel for you bro, we'll cry together.

Oops missed that one! Tyranids are the only army I feel is truly in the same boat as CSM (even though in Tyranids defense you can get a power to give 2 units FnP and IWND). DA at least have amazing ally selections.

 herpguy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 herpguy wrote:


CSM is the only new codex without access to divination (No I do not count $40 DLC as having access to divination), even though one of the named characters literally invented Divination in the Space Marine ranks.

.

Tyranids don't have any access to divinitation, not even through allies.

We in fact, don't get any of BRB tables.

Instead we have access to a single, small, sad little chart with nothing particularly impressive.

Let me feel for you bro, we'll cry together.

Oops missed that one! Tyranids are the only army I feel is truly in the same boat as CSM (even though in Tyranids defense you can get a power to give 2 units FnP and IWND). DA at least have amazing ally selections.

You have to buy regeneration for IWND, Catalyst only gives FNP to the caster and the castee'.

We also need to have a psychic power to do what every Eldar can do for free, and never had divinitation access to begin with (Biomancy which is great, Telepathy which is also great though usually you wanted as much Biomancy as possible because it fit well with the army, and Telekinesis which...ermm...at least it's not pyromancy?) .

And our old beatstick special character has been downgraded to not even being on the top ten best beatsticks in the game with no EW, no invulnerable save rerolling, a fairly meh number of attacks, only one buff and debuff power (which are vastly overshadowed by what others have), a meh Armor save, no way of getting into combat quickly, and if you want him to survive any particularly hefty amount of shooting you need Catalyst, Venomthropes, and three Tyrant guard.

Can't even beat that one Iron Hands/Clan Raukaan chapter master build FFS.

With the new Astra Militarum book handing out Divination AND Power of the Machine Spirit out like candy, CSM become even more of a moot point.

Even if supplements address this in the future (making Iron Warriors BB with AM, for instance), it still empties the core book. Soon everyone would be playing "World Eaters but using Iron Warriors rules", which is a sure sign of lazy game design.

 UlrikDecado wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are £30 for five minis.

Sooo, its in final bad that they made the unit (somewhat) useful? Because, good work would be not want to sell you models?

They should of made possesed worth taking in the first place without having to spend another £30 on a supplement, if possesed were worth taking people would buy them but they are crap no matter how nice the models are.

Same with helbrutes they suck in 6th as they don't live long enough to get into combat so they were not selling, so they release a data slate that makes them good if you shell out £90.

Chaos players are getting bent over and fracked, we have a bad codex and the only way to make them playable is to spend even more money, while tau and eldar players got a working codex from the start.

hobojebus wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are £30 for five minis.

Sooo, its in final bad that they made the unit (somewhat) useful? Because, good work would be not want to sell you models?

They should of made possesed worth taking in the first place without having to spend another £30 on a supplement, if possesed were worth taking people would buy them but they are crap no matter how nice the models are.

Same with helbrutes they suck in 6th as they don't live long enough to get into combat so they were not selling, so they release a data slate that makes them good if you shell out £90.

Chaos players are getting bent over and fracked, we have a bad codex and the only way to make them playable is to spend even more money, while tau and eldar players got a working codex from the start.

My tyranids and dark angels feel for my chaos space marines.

I don't want a codex that is better than any other codex. What I would like is for there to be some attempt to make the codices balanced. There are some codexes that are way over powered, and those armies keep receiving upgrades via supplements, dataslates and so forth. While there are other armies, such as CSM, Tyranids, Dark Angels, Orks (long ignored), that are simply not getting any good (or even any, for that matter) upgrades.

I wish the system was more balanced. How fun would it be to go to a tournament where all armies were reasonably represented, where even the armies that were considered bottom tier could win if played properly. What sucks is losing and feeling like it was because of the list.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:


I wish the system was more balanced. How fun would it be to go to a tournament where all armies were reasonably represented, where even the armies that were considered bottom tier could win if played properly. What sucks is losing and feeling like it was because of the list.

Can't do, sorry. If you want some reasonable balance and character in your book, you're just one of those powergaming 3.5 creeps and your very thoughts are an insult to nids and DA players everywhere.

 Sephyr wrote:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:


I wish the system was more balanced. How fun would it be to go to a tournament where all armies were reasonably represented, where even the armies that were considered bottom tier could win if played properly. What sucks is losing and feeling like it was because of the list.

Can't do, sorry. If you want some reasonable balance and character in your book, you're just one of those powergaming 3.5 creeps and your very thoughts are an insult to nids and DA players everywhere.

Too bad I didn't play 3.5, try again

 Nuln_Oil wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:


I wish the system was more balanced. How fun would it be to go to a tournament where all armies were reasonably represented, where even the armies that were considered bottom tier could win if played properly. What sucks is losing and feeling like it was because of the list.

Can't do, sorry. If you want some reasonable balance and character in your book, you're just one of those powergaming 3.5 creeps and your very thoughts are an insult to nids and DA players everywhere.

Too bad I didn't play 3.5, try again

I'm just guessing but I think Sephyr was being sarcastic there about you being a "powergaming 3.5 creep".

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:


I wish the system was more balanced. How fun would it be to go to a tournament where all armies were reasonably represented, where even the armies that were considered bottom tier could win if played properly. What sucks is losing and feeling like it was because of the list.

Can't do, sorry. If you want some reasonable balance and character in your book, you're just one of those powergaming 3.5 creeps and your very thoughts are an insult to nids and DA players everywhere.

Too bad I didn't play 3.5, try again

I'm just guessing but I think Sephyr was being sarcastic there about you being a "powergaming 3.5 creep".

Then that would explain why I didn't understand what he was saying.

I think it's a joke on the fact that every single CSM thread inevitably descends into 2 parties: The Chaos players on one side asking for Legions, Warbands, Daemons, Veterans, Traitors and everything under the sun, and on the other hand wailing hordes of people apparently suffering PTSD from 3.5 who assume that every request for fun is actually a cleverly-disguised grab at wanting to be the big dog again.

Mozzamanx wrote:
I think it's a joke on the fact that every single CSM thread inevitably descends into 2 parties: The Chaos players on one side asking for Legions, Warbands, Daemons, Veterans, Traitors and everything under the sun, and on the other hand wailing hordes of people apparently suffering PTSD from 3.5 who assume that every request for fun is actually a cleverly-disguised grab at wanting to be the big dog again.

What exactly happened in 3.5? I didn't start this game until the beginning of 2013.

In 3rd CSM got two books, the second of which is referee to the 3.5 codex. It was a poorly balanced mess of stuff that basically encouraged everyone to only play Iron Warriors.

What happened is that 3.5 was the perfect Codex as far as Chaos players were concerned, and a horrific nightmare for everyone else. It had rules for all 9 Legions, it had endless pages of Veteran Skills, Daemonic Gifts and Daemon Weapons to allow a CSM player exactly the kind of list he wanted. It could allow you to take a unit of flying psychic Chosen where everyone carried S5 Power Weapons, and the next day let you play those same Chosen as Infiltrators who could get into assault turn 1.
Unfortunately Games Workshop cannot into balance and there were lots of ways to break the book, so your enemy could be ruined without much say against it. On the other hand, at least it was unpredictable and they'd never be ruined the same way twice.

 Ailaros wrote:

Nuln_Oil wrote:I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up.

No you don't.

Assault armies work because of they way they take field position away from your opponents, and practice board control and objective management. They work because of the way the apply force concentration over time (and, because CSM is a power-armor army, over space as well). They work because 40k isn't just a game where you throw down minis, see who rolls the highest dice first, and then pack it up and go home.

There are deep and complex issues surrounding why assault armies can get shot up turn 1 and still be worth taking, but your statements show that you don't care about any of this. You just want CSM to suck, and want us all to agree with you. Troll away with your vague and shallow dismissal of an entire codex all you want, but it doesn't make it true that CSM is irrelevant.

I agree 100%. There lots of great things in the CSM codex and they can compete with any other army.

hobojebus wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are £30 for five minis.

Sooo, its in final bad that they made the unit (somewhat) useful? Because, good work would be not want to sell you models?

They should of made possesed worth taking in the first place without having to spend another £30 on a supplement, if possesed were worth taking people would buy them but they are crap no matter how nice the models are.

Same with helbrutes they suck in 6th as they don't live long enough to get into combat so they were not selling, so they release a data slate that makes them good if you shell out £90.

Chaos players are getting bent over and fracked, we have a bad codex and the only way to make them playable is to spend even more money, while tau and eldar players got a working codex from the start.

So, anything they do is wrong. Old rules - wrong. New (better) rules - wrong. Yeah, I got you. There is no escape. Its wrong.