Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Jancoran wrote:
Chaos Space Marines are fine. Im winning. I'm not feeling outclassed. I run just one Heldrake. I even use Mutilators.

Find the cheese is my advice, if you're struggling. =)

Pics or no proof.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Chaos Space Marines are fine. Im winning. I'm not feeling outclassed. I run just one Heldrake. I even use Mutilators.

Find the cheese is my advice, if you're struggling. =)

Pics or no proof.

Of what? His army?

Seriously now, "Pics or it didn't happen" doesn't work for -everything- you know.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Chaos Space Marines are fine. Im winning. I'm not feeling outclassed. I run just one Heldrake. I even use Mutilators.

Find the cheese is my advice, if you're struggling. =)

Pics or no proof.

Of what? His army?

Seriously now, "Pics or it didn't happen" doesn't work for -everything- you know.

Battle Reports have pics

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Chaos Space Marines are fine. Im winning. I'm not feeling outclassed. I run just one Heldrake. I even use Mutilators.

Find the cheese is my advice, if you're struggling. =)

Pics or no proof.

Of what? His army?

Seriously now, "Pics or it didn't happen" doesn't work for -everything- you know.

Battle Reports have pics

And can be staged/faked.

No matter how bad anyone thinks 6th ed. Chaos is, you have to agree its tons better than 4th ed. Chaos.

I think the book was a typical Kelly book. Some good stuff, some not so good stuff. And I'll agree that its no where near as powerful as Eldar and Tau turned out to be. But put any Chaos list up against anything not Eldar or Tau and I think you have a good even fight on your hands.

There is good stuff in the codex, its not an autowin, but it doesn't auto loose to much either.

Yeah, I don't run many CSM units as I play Emperor's Children and love the Noise Marine units. But there is something to be said for having a unit with twin melta guns running around in a rhino.

The only reason 6E Chaos is better than 4E Chaos is because of the Heldrake. Otherwise its top build is almost exactly the same build as it was in the prior 'dex.

That said, Chosen actually got worse and I shan't forgive Kelly for that.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The only reason 6E Chaos is better than 4E Chaos is because of the Heldrake. Otherwise its top build is almost exactly the same build as it was in the prior 'dex.

That said, Chosen actually got worse and I shan't forgive Kelly for that.

Thats a bit shallow thinking. I completely shelved my Chaos for all of 4th edition. This edition at least saw them coming back out to play and doing well enough to keep them in contention for which army to I play from one game to the next.

Sure, but that has no bearing on my point. Chaos might at least be a contender now compared to before, but the dominant list is still the same. That's not shallow thinking, it's just reality. 4th Edition CSM was Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators and Friends. 6E CSM is Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators Heldrakes and Friends. It's almost the exact same list as it was before. The only noticeable difference between Chaos then and Chaos now is the 'Drake, and being able to ally with Daemons, which has helped the codex tremendously.

 da001 wrote:
For me the worst part of the Codex, not counting the fluff, is the wide breach between Chaos units and their Loyalist´s counterparts. I play both Marines and Chaos Marines and playing a "mirror-match" is nearly impossible.

Chaos find itself completely outclassed unless you use specific units, the heldrake being the obvious one.

By the way it is even worse if you play Sisters. A 12 point Sister is something of a joke against a 14 point Marine. You learn to expect nothing from your basic units, and that´s bad for enjoying the army.

And a 14 pt marine is its own joke.

Martel732 wrote:

 da001 wrote:
For me the worst part of the Codex, not counting the fluff, is the wide breach between Chaos units and their Loyalist´s counterparts. I play both Marines and Chaos Marines and playing a "mirror-match" is nearly impossible.

Chaos find itself completely outclassed unless you use specific units, the heldrake being the obvious one.

By the way it is even worse if you play Sisters. A 12 point Sister is something of a joke against a 14 point Marine. You learn to expect nothing from your basic units, and that´s bad for enjoying the army.

And a 14 pt marine is its own joke.

The entire point system is a joke. GW has hamstrung themselves by continually lowering point costs. If the basic marine, if that's the benchmark were using, was 25 points and everything was pointed up/down from there, things would work out better as you would have more wiggle room for when a unit gains and or looses abilities. But as it is the difference between a 9 point model and 14 point model is really not that much, but the stat difference can be huge as we all know.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Sure, but that has no bearing on my point. Chaos might at least be a contender now compared to before, but the dominant list is still the same. That's not shallow thinking, it's just reality. 4th Edition CSM was Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators and Friends. 6E CSM is Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators Heldrakes and Friends. It's almost the exact same list as it was before. The only noticeable difference between Chaos then and Chaos now is the 'Drake, and being able to ally with Daemons, which has helped the codex tremendously.

^This, so much. We aren't complaining about how well the codex can do if you go full mono build, we are complaint about how 80% of the units are mediocre to complete garbage. And if your playing CSM for competitiveness, it's still the second worst army in the game.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Sure, but that has no bearing on my point. Chaos might at least be a contender now compared to before, but the dominant list is still the same. That's not shallow thinking, it's just reality. 4th Edition CSM was Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators and Friends. 6E CSM is Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators Heldrakes and Friends. It's almost the exact same list as it was before. The only noticeable difference between Chaos then and Chaos now is the 'Drake, and being able to ally with Daemons, which has helped the codex tremendously.

^This, so much. We aren't complaining about how well the codex can do if you go full mono build, we are complaint about how 80% of the units are mediocre to complete garbage. And if your playing CSM for competitiveness, it's still the second worst army in the game.

You are saying Orks and Sisters are better than CSM?

Martel732 wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Sure, but that has no bearing on my point. Chaos might at least be a contender now compared to before, but the dominant list is still the same. That's not shallow thinking, it's just reality. 4th Edition CSM was Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators and Friends. 6E CSM is Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators Heldrakes and Friends. It's almost the exact same list as it was before. The only noticeable difference between Chaos then and Chaos now is the 'Drake, and being able to ally with Daemons, which has helped the codex tremendously.

^This, so much. We aren't complaining about how well the codex can do if you go full mono build, we are complaint about how 80% of the units are mediocre to complete garbage. And if your playing CSM for competitiveness, it's still the second worst army in the game.

You are saying Orks and Sisters are better than CSM?

Your joking right? Sisters are far and above better than CSM.

No, no that was a legit question. I don't really understand the dynamics in the mid-low tiers that well. I know BA are the worst, and then there's a bunch of armies I might be able to beat, and then there's Tau/Eldar/Gravstar marines/Daemons.

If you Sisters are better than CSM, I'm not gonna argue as I don't 100% the matchup there. They are both lists than don't auto-table my BA. That's really what I know.

Martel732 wrote:
No, no that was a legit question. I don't really understand the dynamics in the mid-low tiers that well. I know BA are the worst, and then there's a bunch of armies I might be able to beat, and then there's Tau/Eldar/Gravstar marines/Daemons.

If you Sisters are better than CSM, I'm not gonna argue as I don't 100% the matchup there. They are both lists than don't auto-table my BA. That's really what I know.

The issue is that CSM wouldn't auto table you if it wasn't for the helldrake.

Playing agiest the CSM with and with-out the helldrake is night and day.


The perfect compative CSM list is:

DP, Cultists, helldrakes, and Forgefiend.

You don't even take any actual CSM units, because they are all garbage. Any competive CSM list will be a varrient of this. Anyone trying to do a themed list with the current book, will find themselves with a prety gak teir army.

 quickfuze wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Sure, but that has no bearing on my point. Chaos might at least be a contender now compared to before, but the dominant list is still the same. That's not shallow thinking, it's just reality. 4th Edition CSM was Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators and Friends. 6E CSM is Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators Heldrakes and Friends. It's almost the exact same list as it was before. The only noticeable difference between Chaos then and Chaos now is the 'Drake, and being able to ally with Daemons, which has helped the codex tremendously.

^This, so much. We aren't complaining about how well the codex can do if you go full mono build, we are complaint about how 80% of the units are mediocre to complete garbage. And if your playing CSM for competitiveness, it's still the second worst army in the game.

You are saying Orks and Sisters are better than CSM?

Your joking right? Sisters are far and above better than CSM.

Sisters are better than some CSM armies. The Sisters codex is largely hampered the same way the CSM one is: every list is basically the same, there are serious automatic choices and major duds through out. And Heldrakes can effectively nuke a Sisters army due to having 0 skyfire access in the native codex.

There are days I feel that the 6++ from Shield of Faith is a pity save given because they didn't want to reduce the points costs of Sisters to take the time to address the problems the book has (useless elites for instance).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Sure, but that has no bearing on my point. Chaos might at least be a contender now compared to before, but the dominant list is still the same. That's not shallow thinking, it's just reality. 4th Edition CSM was Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators and Friends. 6E CSM is Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators Heldrakes and Friends. It's almost the exact same list as it was before. The only noticeable difference between Chaos then and Chaos now is the 'Drake, and being able to ally with Daemons, which has helped the codex tremendously.

^This, so much. We aren't complaining about how well the codex can do if you go full mono build, we are complaint about how 80% of the units are mediocre to complete garbage. And if your playing CSM for competitiveness, it's still the second worst army in the game.

You are saying Orks and Sisters are better than CSM?

Your joking right? Sisters are far and above better than CSM.

Sisters are better than some CSM armies. The Sisters codex is largely hampered the same way the CSM one is: every list is basically the same, there are serious automatic choices and major duds through out. And Heldrakes can effectively nuke a Sisters army due to having 0 skyfire access in the native codex.

There are days I feel that the 6++ from Shield of Faith is a pity save given because they didn't want to reduce the points costs of Sisters to take the time to address the problems the book has (useless elites for instance).

You know, when you said this. It made me really pause and remember my Tzeentch CSM army with their marks and Chaos elites in general. Maybe this is why I am always so intrigued with sisters and wish they could just be a bit cheaper or at least a box of them at the shop? But yeah, monobuild basically. Sure, sisters can opt for allying in AA, but that's not really the Sisters themself toting in AA is it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lockark wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, no that was a legit question. I don't really understand the dynamics in the mid-low tiers that well. I know BA are the worst, and then there's a bunch of armies I might be able to beat, and then there's Tau/Eldar/Gravstar marines/Daemons.

If you Sisters are better than CSM, I'm not gonna argue as I don't 100% the matchup there. They are both lists than don't auto-table my BA. That's really what I know.

The issue is that CSM wouldn't auto table you if it wasn't for the helldrake.

Playing agiest the CSM with and with-out the helldrake is night and day.


The perfect compative CSM list is:

DP, Cultists, helldrakes, and Forgefiend.

You don't even take any actual CSM units, because they are all garbage. Any competive CSM list will be a varrient of this. Anyone trying to do a themed list with the current book, will find themselves with a prety gak teir army.

Not even plague Marines?

 StarTrotter wrote:

You know, when you said this. It made me really pause and remember my Tzeentch CSM army with their marks and Chaos elites in general. Maybe this is why I am always so intrigued with sisters and wish they could just be a bit cheaper or at least a box of them at the shop? But yeah, monobuild basically. Sure, sisters can opt for allying in AA, but that's not really the Sisters themself toting in AA is it.

Thousand Sons are an army I'd love to play. And really they don't need much to make them better either. 1 Heavy Bolter with AP3 rounds for every 5 models, and Relentless when the Sorc lives. Suddenly it's a mobile firebase that has a threat range of 42".

Of course Divination would be nice too.

I think even just making 1KSons' bolters assault 2 and giving them a bit of a price drop would make them better. Not great, but possibly serviceable.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think even just making 1KSons' bolters assault 2 and giving them a bit of a price drop would make them better. Not great, but possibly serviceable.

If you're doing that you might as well just give the entire squad Stormbolters.

Adding more bolters won't help. This game is now about S 6+ mass shooting.

hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are £30 for five minis.

Random question. Did it even make it worth getting some possessed? I have some because I liked them in concept and bought them long ago but I can never will myself to field them. Did it even really make it worth it to field them? From what I gather, it's still per turn, and now they sacrifice devastation once they get into cc.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think even just making 1KSons' bolters assault 2 and giving them a bit of a price drop would make them better. Not great, but possibly serviceable.

If you're doing that you might as well just give the entire squad Stormbolters.

Stormbolters aren't AP3.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think even just making 1KSons' bolters assault 2 and giving them a bit of a price drop would make them better. Not great, but possibly serviceable.

sadly the psycic powers for tzeentch are rubbish, total garbage actually...
SNP... worthless, cant overwatch cant run.. just guff
sould blaze? who even remembers this?
sooo many terrible rules in a super expensive unit..

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think even just making 1KSons' bolters assault 2 and giving them a bit of a price drop would make them better. Not great, but possibly serviceable.

If you're doing that you might as well just give the entire squad Stormbolters.

Stormbolters aren't AP3.

Uh...isn't it inferno bolts wargear that gives the AP3, not the boltgun? So yeah storm bolters, unless someone was being facetious...

Also Tsons' dilemma as a unit really shows that they should have just overhauled the Mark system entirely with a two tier system of Greater Marks and Lesser Marks. Lesser Marks like a Lesser Mark of Tzzentch should just flat out let them re-roll failed armour save of 1. This way Tzzentch marines can actually be survivable against small-arms fire and not get a useless 6+ invuln. save against the vast majority of weapons. Greater Marks of Tzzentch would have the +1 to invuln. save as before AND the lesser mark buff. This makes Tzzentch terminators an actual viable choice versus just taking Nurgle Terminators (since you can essentially re-roll the armour save for the Tzzentch termies while still having the 4++ against stuff that would ignore it). Of course the Greater Marks would be pricier but at least this way you wouldn't have to worry about dud marks.

It would be nice if my scary CSM could go into CC and not get run down because they failed a moral check. Chaos icons should either get a LoS roll or can't be sniped out. This would get csm bodies back on the table top. Or give them ATSNKF.

Having played CSM for a little while now I agree with a lot of what is being said in this thread. Some problems I face when playing and building lists are:

-Troop issues. Cultists are cheap, regular marines are awful. Plague Marines are good and I never tried Noise Marines but they don't seem bad. Part of the problem is lack of mobility. We can't put them in Drop Pods, our only option for moving them faster around is in a first-blood Rhino, and PM/NM are only troops if you include a marked Lord, similar to how you must include Typhus to unlock Zombies.

-Heldrake dependency. Pretty useless against 2+ armour (Riptide..) though.

-A lot of absolutely useless units (Warp Talons, Mutilators, Defiler, etc.)

-Lack of cheesy combos/buffs/special rules. This is in itself probably a good thing, but it's a big disadvantage in the current meta, where taudar and daemons can pull off some crazy special rule combos.

-Poor psychic powers. And I must take one if I mark my psyker? Rubbish (but Weapon Virus would be fun to throw on a Guardsmen blob..)

-Problems taking out Riptides and heavy vehicles. Maybe it's just me, but I really struggle to take out a Riptide. My shooting just isn't good enough, I depend on armour and cover saves, both of which the Riptide can ignore, and if something does get in assault range, there is both supporting fire to Overwatch and a smashing Riptide causing Instant Death to pretty much anything I can throw at it.
I expect there will be more Leman Russes rolling around soon with the new AM codex as well, and unless I get a lucky deep strike with Obliterators, I will struggle with these.

-On the topic of Deep Strike.. This is possibly just my bad luck, but my Obliterators always tend to scatter exactly where they shouldn't scatter. I aim for a clear, open area, but nah, 11-12" right into impassable terrain or enemy units. I really miss some Servo Skull-like thing. Can't I get a Daemonic Beacon or something?

I do like my CSM though and don't want to come off as purely complaining. It is sad that you tend to see CSM as a Heldrake-detachment to Daemons today, but I think the problem lies more with taudar/daemons. I enjoy playing against the majority of 40k armies, and I hope they will be balanced instead of more and more cheese.

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
It would be nice if my scary CSM could go into CC and not get run down because they failed a moral check. Chaos icons should either get a LoS roll or can't be sniped out. This would get csm bodies back on the table top. Or give them ATSNKF.

Against good lists, ATSKNF means nothing. Their plan is to kill you with shooting, not beat you in HTH. I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF several times and it has never influenced the outcome of the game. Marine squad are being murdered wholesale in the new meta. There are few tests to take.

ATSKNF being that effective or not, I still think it needs to be restricted to "Pass Fear Tests" only. It doesn't need to be 3 effects in one, it's just too much bonus wise as is.

i like noisemarines in a gunline... lots of shots going out, blastmasters also good for taking down units in cover at 48" and if you infiltrate some up near enough to those damn markerlights, wipe them out in a round of shooting... it mightnt seem cost effective, BUT its better than letting them buff the riptides..