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Generally speaking Markerlights are more important to kill than anything else in a Tau army early in the game. The sooner those Pathfinders go down the easier the army is to deal with.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
ATSKNF being that effective or not, I still think it needs to be restricted to "Pass Fear Tests" only. It doesn't need to be 3 effects in one, it's just too much bonus wise as is.

If it is not contributing to victories, why not leave it? Or just get rid of it and give marines better firepower outside of the Gravstar. I truly wouldn't care if they just got rid of it and made marines even cheaper. I need more bodies to feed to the Eldar gods.

ATSKNF was a huge deal in 3rd. In fact, it was completely broken. But now the game is so different, it's just something for Xeno players to hold out and say, "See? You've got this awesome ability!" When, in fact, it is useless.

Martel732 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
ATSKNF being that effective or not, I still think it needs to be restricted to "Pass Fear Tests" only. It doesn't need to be 3 effects in one, it's just too much bonus wise as is.

If it is not contributing to victories, why not leave it? Or just get rid of it and give marines better firepower outside of the Gravstar. I truly wouldn't care if they just got rid of it and made marines even cheaper. I need more bodies to feed to the Eldar gods.

ATSKNF was a huge deal in 3rd. In fact, it was completely broken. But now the game is so different, it's just something for Xeno players to hold out and say, "See? You've got this awesome ability!" When, in fact, it is useless.

My csm get a ccw for the same price as ATSKNF. You have to agree its worth more then a 1 point reduction or a ccw

Any given army can be really good or completely terrible depending on a combination of the player and your local meta. I've found that the skill of the player usually has a much bigger impact on any given game than the units they are running...

Of course, there are certain match ups that regardless of skill level you just can't win. Like an entire foot slogging army of DE warriors with 100% poison (no dark lances or blasters) going up against IG Mech w/lots of large blast templates. However, I'm not sure that a medium to high skill player would ever run a completely unhinged list like that.... except as a joke.

To me player skill boils down to the ability to create a strong TAC list in combination with having the strategic and tactical acumen to make it work. I've certainly leveraged my DE to win against "hard" armies like Tau, Eldar and Daemons where my opponent used common net lists. One of the most hilarious games I had involved watching an opponents 20+ khorne dogs literally run around the table in a large circle trying to catch up with a good sized unit of non scoring jetbikes... only for him to realize at the bottom of turn 5 that he had ignored all of the objectives; which I held. Good army, not so good general playing against a so called "bottom tier" army with a decent general. That said, I had my first loss against a marine based army (Dark Angels - commonly considered one of the worst armies out there) since 6e hit a few weeks ago. Power Armor is just not an issue for DE; however this guy completely killed me because his strategy/tactics were on a much higher level than mine.

I'm not saying that army tiers don't exist. However, I think the "tiers" are only one aspect of the game and a relatively minor one at that for the vast majority of players.

Martel732 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
ATSKNF being that effective or not, I still think it needs to be restricted to "Pass Fear Tests" only. It doesn't need to be 3 effects in one, it's just too much bonus wise as is.

If it is not contributing to victories, why not leave it? Or just get rid of it and give marines better firepower outside of the Gravstar. I truly wouldn't care if they just got rid of it and made marines even cheaper. I need more bodies to feed to the Eldar gods.

ATSKNF was a huge deal in 3rd. In fact, it was completely broken. But now the game is so different, it's just something for Xeno players to hold out and say, "See? You've got this awesome ability!" When, in fact, it is useless.

Because it's effectively a 1 point upgrade and handing out 3 rules for 1 point is asinine. It costs even less than that when you factor in Chapter Tactics!

 Lockark wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
ATSKNF being that effective or not, I still think it needs to be restricted to "Pass Fear Tests" only. It doesn't need to be 3 effects in one, it's just too much bonus wise as is.

If it is not contributing to victories, why not leave it? Or just get rid of it and give marines better firepower outside of the Gravstar. I truly wouldn't care if they just got rid of it and made marines even cheaper. I need more bodies to feed to the Eldar gods.

ATSKNF was a huge deal in 3rd. In fact, it was completely broken. But now the game is so different, it's just something for Xeno players to hold out and say, "See? You've got this awesome ability!" When, in fact, it is useless.

My csm get a ccw for the same price as ATSKNF. You have to agree its worth more then a 1 point reduction or a ccw

No. In my experience it is worth basically zero. My marines are DYING, not making tests. I can't lose a close combat because I can't get into close combat. And even if I do, it's a throwaway squad that can't beat me anyway and they just shoot me again the next turn. Xenos don't care about ATSKNF because they never plan on beating you in CC and hence, no pursuit rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
ATSKNF being that effective or not, I still think it needs to be restricted to "Pass Fear Tests" only. It doesn't need to be 3 effects in one, it's just too much bonus wise as is.

If it is not contributing to victories, why not leave it? Or just get rid of it and give marines better firepower outside of the Gravstar. I truly wouldn't care if they just got rid of it and made marines even cheaper. I need more bodies to feed to the Eldar gods.

ATSKNF was a huge deal in 3rd. In fact, it was completely broken. But now the game is so different, it's just something for Xeno players to hold out and say, "See? You've got this awesome ability!" When, in fact, it is useless.

Because it's effectively a 1 point upgrade and handing out 3 rules for 1 point is asinine. It costs even less than that when you factor in Chapter Tactics!

This is a case of CSM getting the royal bone, not loyalists being awesome. Even with all the dodads that loyalist marines get, they still are 100% reliant upon the Gravstar to be truly scary. The marines themselves are still liabilities, not plusses.

You're forgetting the auto-rally 3" PLUS 6" move that you get if you're forces to flee, which can happen from shooting casualties.

And your complaints have more to do with tactics and your opponents than if the rule is really worth it or not.

From a strict points costing method I don't see any rule that hands out multiple other rules as being worth being that cheap, even if some people don't get nearly as much utility out of it as others.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You're forgetting the auto-rally 3" PLUS 6" move that you get if you're forces to flee, which can happen from shooting casualties.

And your complaints have more to do with tactics and your opponents than if the rule is really worth it or not.

From a strict points costing method I don't see any rule that hands out multiple other rules as being worth being that cheap, even if some people don't get nearly as much utility out of it as others.

No. If the game invalidates ATSKNF, then its point cost goes down or goes away. As I stated, compare its effects on the play of the game in 3rd to now. Who cares if I autorally? They just get shot some more and die anyway. ATSKNF just lets Xenos roll more dice before you pack in the game.

Has more to do with my opponents? You mean the opponents that are fielding legal lists and using them legally? Basically, this approach is, "If the game weren't the game, then ATSKNF would great!" Xeno shooting and xeno-mimic gravstars ARE the game now. That invalidates ATSKNF as this powerhouse rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look. I'm in complete agreement that CSM got totally hosed. But everything that mows down CSM also mows down loyalists, and ATSKNF doesn't help at all. If you break and autorally, they just keep shooting. They are both boned because they are paying points for stats and armor that don't do anything while being undergunned themselves. They are like British tanks from WWII.

Martel732 wrote:
No. If the game invalidates ATSKNF, then its point cost goes down or goes away. As I stated, compare its effects on the play of the game in 3rd to now. Who cares if I autorally? They just get shot some more and die anyway. ATSKNF just lets Xenos roll more dice before you pack in the game.

The game doesn't invalidate it. Target priority and armies that can bring a lot of long ranged firepower (Guard (sort of, most of it scatters), Tau, Eldar) are what invalidates it, not the whole game.

Martel732 wrote:
Has more to do with my opponents? You mean the opponents that are fielding legal lists and using them legally? Basically, this approach is, "If the game weren't the game, then ATSKNF would great!" Xeno shooting and xeno-mimic gravstars ARE the game now. That invalidates ATSKNF as this powerhouse rule.

Multiple Riptides or Taudar or Wave Serpent Spam invalidates a lot of armies. Legal? Sure. Really following the "Spirit of the Game" (that funny little section at the start of the rulebook that says players should try and play the game to be fun for EVERYONE involved that people forget when they're manically skulldragging people across the table)? Not always.

I'm not saying it's a "Powerhouse Rule" I'm saying it's a bloated rule with too many different effects and is poorly designed/costed. As someone who likes to look at the codexes and tinker with ideas on how to update them as kind of a hobby it bothers me from a design standpoint, even if you aren't getting a lot out of it.

Imperial knights don't leave much in their wake to auto-rally either. Doesn't look like IG will, either. It's a garbage-time rule now because the mechanics it helps you with don't matter in crunch time. Sure, it probably will come up with Nids from time to time. Whoopee. Who cares?

I'd be down for modifying ATSKNF or getting rid of it and giving all loyalists a +1 LD across the board, including commanders, making them an 11. That fits thematically, as well. Maybe, just maybe, someone would bring a chaplain then. Nah.......

And as for casual games, marines' firepower is so poor that I don't understand how marines aren't horribly outgunned in casual lists, either. There are so many bad units in C:SM, that if you are just going casual, I can randomly pick units from Xeno codices and still be better off. It all starts with marine troops having very little killing power and access to either AP 2 or wound spamming having gone way up and goes from there. Everything that is true for my BA or counts-as Iron Hands is ALSO true for CSM, and that's a big reason why I bet CSM players are unhappy.

We don't need to give Loyalist Marines a bonus to their Leadership, it's already pretty high across the board so what would the bonus actually do?

Plus characteristics (outside of AV values) can't exceed 10.

8 isn't really that high. It's 1 more than the standard.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
8 isn't really that high. It's 1 more than the standard.

It's highert than average on 2d6. Plus Marines often test on a 9.

I want Obliterator Weapons on my Chaos Tanks when upgraded for Daemonic Possessed.
Legion tactics would be a +.

Give me Power of the Warp (Machine Spirit) So my stupid Land Raiders and Predators don't come at a handicap and never fire their full potential. Or straight up give them Independent fire on their weapons.

A Decrease in cost to the Defiler to bring it in line with the Soul Grinder (How the hell is that thing only 170 points with its common Torrent + Nurgle upgs?!)

Chain Axes are rubbish. Champions should be able to take Evicerators and they should be actually good against their MEQ bretheren, whom they were actually manufactured to kill.

Possessed should have their entire Crimson Slaughter buff Dex rolled into the Original Dex. Buff them to constantly have Power Weapons (Since they still cost an arm and a leg - Might as well give them the benefit of having what their models come with) Rending on 6s They should move like beasts all the time.

Remove the Noob Trap of Warp Talons Deep Strike. It's absolute garbage to see friendly games of people taking these gorgeous models only to see them make the horrendous mistake of falling for GWs jackassery and giving up First Blood + Kill points. And for Christ sake, lower their Point cost to 110 for 5. There should be no reason in a 6th Ed. game you are being punished for taking a unit that forgoes it's Shooting, alla Raptors, to take up an extra CC weapon just to have them fall short in every regard.

Give Ahriman access to Divination.... The fact we have to ask this makes me lose faith in the game almost entirely.

Reduce the cost of Thousand Sons to 120 points for the base 5 and 20 points per additional model thereafter. No one should have to pay an arm and a leg for AP3 situational boltgun shots on models that can't run, can't even defend themselves with overwatch, NOR retain their usefullness once the champion dies. More ill thought out rubbish.

Buff the range of Ectoplasma Cannons on Forgefiends to actually be worth taking. We shouldn't be punished for taking the "Bad guys" (Or however you want to justify it) in a game. "Oh you get inferior Plasma Cannons because Chaos are the bad guys" >.>

GIVE DAEMON PRINCES THEIR BLOODY EW BACK. Mother of god.

It's 1 higher than average on a 2d6.

Imperial Guard often test on 8.

GoliothOnline wrote:
I want Obliterator Weapons on my Chaos Tanks when upgraded for Daemonic Possessed.
Legion tactics would be a +.

Give me Power of the Warp (Machine Spirit) So my stupid Land Raiders and Predators don't come at a handicap and never fire their full potential. Or straight up give them Independent fire on their weapons.

A Decrease in cost to the Defiler to bring it in line with the Soul Grinder (How the hell is that thing only 170 points with its common Torrent + Nurgle upgs?!)

Chain Axes are rubbish. Champions should be able to take Evicerators and they should be actually good against their MEQ bretheren, whom they were actually manufactured to kill.

Possessed should have their entire Crimson Slaughter buff Dex rolled into the Original Dex. Buff them to constantly have Power Weapons (Since they still cost an arm and a leg - Might as well give them the benefit of having what their models come with) Rending on 6s They should move like beasts all the time.

Remove the Noob Trap of Warp Talons Deep Strike. It's absolute garbage to see friendly games of people taking these gorgeous models only to see them make the horrendous mistake of falling for GWs jackassery and giving up First Blood + Kill points. And for Christ sake, lower their Point cost to 110 for 5. There should be no reason in a 6th Ed. game you are being punished for taking a unit that forgoes it's Shooting, alla Raptors, to take up an extra CC weapon just to have them fall short in every regard.

Give Ahriman access to Divination.... The fact we have to ask this makes me lose faith in the game almost entirely.

Reduce the cost of Thousand Sons to 120 points for the base 5 and 20 points per additional model thereafter. No one should have to pay an arm and a leg for AP3 situational boltgun shots on models that can't run, can't even defend themselves with overwatch, NOR retain their usefullness once the champion dies. More ill thought out rubbish.

Buff the range of Ectoplasma Cannons on Forgefiends to actually be worth taking. We shouldn't be punished for taking the "Bad guys" (Or however you want to justify it) in a game. "Oh you get inferior Plasma Cannons because Chaos are the bad guys" >.>

GIVE DAEMON PRINCES THEIR BLOODY EW BACK. Mother of god.

I agree with everything said here, especially Ahriman and Divination. Seriously, wtf?
But the only thing I'd change to his list is Legion Tactics. For me that's not just a +, but it's mandatory. A hundred marines get a supplement but legions that have much greater variety in fighting styles that have long histories and greater numbers get nothing? Really?

 Squigsquasher wrote:
As a diehard casual/fluff player who is building a mechanized mono-Slaanesh Noise Marine force, I don't mind the codex. It's kinda underpowered, and it does have some crappy choices (*cough* Mutilators) but overall it's a fairly well balanced book with some good options..

And honestly, as much of a joke mutilators are online, taking a single 65 point T5 2W model with a 2+ 5++ is not going to ruin an army (although I have literally seen people online claim if you even take a single mutilator you will never win a game, I guess that is the hyperbolic polarising nature of the internet for you though). If someone to like the concept of mutilators and scratch build their own one, they can get away with putting it on the table without auto-losing (especially if they aren't playing kill points every single game)!

 ClockworkZion wrote:
We don't need to give Loyalist Marines a bonus to their Leadership, it's already pretty high across the board so what would the bonus actually do?

Plus characteristics (outside of AV values) can't exceed 10.

I'm saying that they should exceed 10. There's no reason they can't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoliothOnline wrote:
I want Obliterator Weapons on my Chaos Tanks when upgraded for Daemonic Possessed.
Legion tactics would be a +.

Give me Power of the Warp (Machine Spirit) So my stupid Land Raiders and Predators don't come at a handicap and never fire their full potential. Or straight up give them Independent fire on their weapons.

A Decrease in cost to the Defiler to bring it in line with the Soul Grinder (How the hell is that thing only 170 points with its common Torrent + Nurgle upgs?!)

Chain Axes are rubbish. Champions should be able to take Evicerators and they should be actually good against their MEQ bretheren, whom they were actually manufactured to kill.

Possessed should have their entire Crimson Slaughter buff Dex rolled into the Original Dex. Buff them to constantly have Power Weapons (Since they still cost an arm and a leg - Might as well give them the benefit of having what their models come with) Rending on 6s They should move like beasts all the time.

Remove the Noob Trap of Warp Talons Deep Strike. It's absolute garbage to see friendly games of people taking these gorgeous models only to see them make the horrendous mistake of falling for GWs jackassery and giving up First Blood + Kill points. And for Christ sake, lower their Point cost to 110 for 5. There should be no reason in a 6th Ed. game you are being punished for taking a unit that forgoes it's Shooting, alla Raptors, to take up an extra CC weapon just to have them fall short in every regard.

Give Ahriman access to Divination.... The fact we have to ask this makes me lose faith in the game almost entirely.

Reduce the cost of Thousand Sons to 120 points for the base 5 and 20 points per additional model thereafter. No one should have to pay an arm and a leg for AP3 situational boltgun shots on models that can't run, can't even defend themselves with overwatch, NOR retain their usefullness once the champion dies. More ill thought out rubbish.

Buff the range of Ectoplasma Cannons on Forgefiends to actually be worth taking. We shouldn't be punished for taking the "Bad guys" (Or however you want to justify it) in a game. "Oh you get inferior Plasma Cannons because Chaos are the bad guys" >.>

GIVE DAEMON PRINCES THEIR BLOODY EW BACK. Mother of god.

Even with all these changes, CSM would still not be top tier, nor viable against gravstars, the main loyalist build. That's pretty sad.

Martel732 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
We don't need to give Loyalist Marines a bonus to their Leadership, it's already pretty high across the board so what would the bonus actually do?

Plus characteristics (outside of AV values) can't exceed 10.

I'm saying that they should exceed 10. There's no reason they can't.

Warhammer 40,000 Core Rulebook, Page 2, Paragraph 2 wrote:Warhammer 40,000 uses nine different characteristics to describe the various attributes of the different models. All but one of the characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10.

Warhammer 40,000 Core Rulebook. Page 2, Pragraph 3: Modifers wrote:Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can be raised above 10. No characteristic can be modified below 0.

That would be why. There is a cap built in by the rules capping them at 10.

And why does Marine Leadership need to be BETTER? You already claim you don't use it, so what would change? Also it makes CSM even worse by comparison. It's not fixing anything, it's just making a bigger mess.

We are modify things, already, so I don't care about the in-game caps. They mean nothing to conjectural units.

I was saying to up their LD by one to represent ATSKNF instead of actually having ATSKNF. How does that make CSM worse?

Martel732 wrote:
We are modify things, already, so I don't care about the in-game caps. They mean nothing to conjectural units.

They do when you're talking about rewriting the core rules to buff an army.

Martel732 wrote:
I was saying to up their LD by one to represent ATSKNF instead of actually having ATSKNF. How does that make CSM worse?

CSM have to BUY their improved Leadership with Veterans of the Long War to get to Marine levels. Then you give it to Marines for free? Nu-uh. To quote Sonic the Hedgehog: "That's no good."

Because Space Marines by design are supposed to be immune to fear and almost impossible to run off the board. That's why ATSKNF exists. If you want to get rid of it, either make them fearless, or LD10, or find a new mechanic that supports that design mechanic. You weaken your own argument when you complain about ATSKNF and demand it gets removed, but offer absolutely nothing to replace what it does.

The quality of CSM is irrelevant. They're two different armies that exist independently of one another- you can't use the power level of one codex to influence the power level of another. CSM sucks, making SM weaker won't fix that.

I thought CSM were LD 9 by default. See how often this doesn't come up?

"They do when you're talking about rewriting the core rules to buff an army. "

Sorry, can't bring myself to give a feth about GW's opinion on their own game. Because they are basically morons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Because Space Marines by design are supposed to be immune to fear and almost impossible to run off the board. That's why ATSKNF exists. If you want to get rid of it, either make them fearless, or LD10, or find a new mechanic that supports that design mechanic. You weaken your own argument when you complain about ATSKNF and demand it gets removed, but offer absolutely nothing to replace what it does.

The quality of CSM is irrelevant. They're two different armies that exist independently of one another- you can't use the power level of one codex to influence the power level of another. CSM sucks, making SM weaker won't fix that.

Seconded. CSM need a lot of buffs. But I can't imagine what you can do in the face of power armor being basically invalidated by the overall meta of the game.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Because Space Marines by design are supposed to be immune to fear and almost impossible to run off the board. That's why ATSKNF exists. If you want to get rid of it, either make them fearless, or LD10, or find a new mechanic that supports that design mechanic. You weaken your own argument when you complain about ATSKNF and demand it gets removed, but offer absolutely nothing to replace what it does.

Make ATSKNF ignore Fear and then give their characters a rule such as "Get Back in The Fight" that makes them auto-rally (as normal) when falling back (and then the rule could be used with other armies where it'd make sense to have it). Drop the "no Sweeping Advance" thing because by fluff every army should have that. Instead make it so the swept unit takes another round of attacks by the unit doing the sweeping (just like a normal round of combat) and if they're killed off then they're dead, otherwise they've escaped as they made their fighting retreat.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The quality of CSM is irrelevant. They're two different armies that exist independently of one another- you can't use the power level of one codex to influence the power level of another. CSM sucks, making SM weaker won't fix that.

And overbuffing Marines doesn't fix the game balance either. Rewriting core mechanics just so one army can benefit is "over egging the pudding" (as it was once put to me).

Sounds fine to me. It would suck to be swept by cheesy ass FMC in melee, but it wouldn't change the outcome. Screamerstar + FMC still equals marine loss.

Martel732 wrote:
Sounds fine to me. It would suck to be swept by cheesy ass FMC in melee, but it wouldn't change the outcome. Screamerstar + FMC still equals marine loss.

It wouldn't change the outcome for everything else though.

As for the Screamerstar and Flying Circus issue that's something that just needs a fair amount of rebalancing rules wise that'd take a big set of changes to really fix.

I guess it lets the Screamerstar star sweep as well, but it's not like marines can ever beat it anyway. It's just a testament to the state of the game in that 3rd edition I'd be fighting to keep ATSKNF, and now in 6th, I just don't care.

So, yeah, to answer the original question: CSM are in fact, irrelevant. Marinew are only relevant because of the new $70/3 model grav cents supported by specific psychic powers. White scars are great, but most tournies seem to be ruling that WS get cover save against grav, which throws White Scars back down below the top lists.

Aren't your marines just dieing and not runing , because they have ATKNF?

Martel732 wrote:
I thought CSM were LD 9 by default. See how often this doesn't come up?

"They do when you're talking about rewriting the core rules to buff an army. "

Sorry, can't bring myself to give a feth about GW's opinion on their own game. Because they are basically morons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Because Space Marines by design are supposed to be immune to fear and almost impossible to run off the board. That's why ATSKNF exists. If you want to get rid of it, either make them fearless, or LD10, or find a new mechanic that supports that design mechanic. You weaken your own argument when you complain about ATSKNF and demand it gets removed, but offer absolutely nothing to replace what it does.

The quality of CSM is irrelevant. They're two different armies that exist independently of one another- you can't use the power level of one codex to influence the power level of another. CSM sucks, making SM weaker won't fix that.

Seconded. CSM need a lot of buffs. But I can't imagine what you can do in the face of power armor being basically invalidated by the overall meta of the game.

CSM usually test on a ld9 because they are automatically forced to take sergeants (sergeants that suicide challenge and also lead to CSM being more expensive as a unit until when a unit of 10 where they cost the same as a tactical marine squad before finally getting cheaper with additional units).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Because Space Marines by design are supposed to be immune to fear and almost impossible to run off the board. That's why ATSKNF exists. If you want to get rid of it, either make them fearless, or LD10, or find a new mechanic that supports that design mechanic. You weaken your own argument when you complain about ATSKNF and demand it gets removed, but offer absolutely nothing to replace what it does.

Make ATSKNF ignore Fear and then give their characters a rule such as "Get Back in The Fight" that makes them auto-rally (as normal) when falling back (and then the rule could be used with other armies where it'd make sense to have it). Drop the "no Sweeping Advance" thing because by fluff every army should have that. Instead make it so the swept unit takes another round of attacks by the unit doing the sweeping (just like a normal round of combat) and if they're killed off then they're dead, otherwise they've escaped as they made their fighting retreat.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The quality of CSM is irrelevant. They're two different armies that exist independently of one another- you can't use the power level of one codex to influence the power level of another. CSM sucks, making SM weaker won't fix that.

And overbuffing Marines doesn't fix the game balance either. Rewriting core mechanics just so one army can benefit is "over egging the pudding" (as it was once put to me).

Basically this. Although fear REALLY needs an update to make it worth a flip honestly. As per sweeping, I'd say either something like that or the enemy gets caught up, looses some extra models and stays stuck in close combat. Either could work (and if it is the former assault ds might be added I guess?)

Makumba wrote:
Aren't your marines just dieing and not runing , because they have ATKNF?

No, because they never get to test. They are gone.