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 herpguy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
Um I would love that.

Trade you for the Juggerlord and double special weapons on troops?

I would trade the juggerlord that is in no competitive lists for the ability to give EW AND a 3++ for 50 pts that is in EVERY competitive SM list. You can also have the double special weapons, I don't think those have even crossed the mind of a competitive player for a very long time.

Except for the part where we can't. There's an EW relic in the Black Legion supplement as well.

And just for the record, Chapter Tactics: Black Templars isn't in any competetive list either, so your point is rather moot.

 Jancoran wrote:
I just don't know what to say. It's so odd to hear people bagging on the codex.

It doesn't have to be a top tier codex for a good general to win with it.

Everyone seems to want an auto win button and we get these threads about how a codex sucks even though there are people out here verifiably and consistently winning. Why argue with success. Figure out what they're doing RIGHT and emulate it. Or better yet, make your own.

It takes PRACTICE to win. I understand people who dont get to play often jumping off the cliff at every disappointment but I wish those people would admit their lack of perspective.

Yes, the adepticon lists are very telling. Cultists, drakes, fill heavy and that's it.

And even then they are very low in the tournament listings, they do have success in chaos daemon lists in the higher rankings who just take a cheap hq, cultists, and drake.

Of course though your going to simply check in, not actually have any numbers at all from tournaments or higher ranked games and simply say they are verifiable winning consistently. Maybe you could provide some? Also of course simply go with the "PRACTICE" and "Your doing it wrong!" card as well, and "YOU JUST WANT AUTOWINS". Without actually reading most of the topic at hand.

Nobody is arguing there is a successful list..It's just got no CSM at all in it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 herpguy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
Um I would love that.

Trade you for the Juggerlord and double special weapons on troops?

I would trade the juggerlord that is in no competitive lists for the ability to give EW AND a 3++ for 50 pts that is in EVERY competitive SM list. You can also have the double special weapons, I don't think those have even crossed the mind of a competitive player for a very long time.

Except for the part where we can't. There's an EW relic in the Black Legion supplement as well.

And just for the record, Chapter Tactics: Black Templars isn't in any competetive list either, so your point is rather moot.

Problem being Black Legion's EW isn't a 3++, doesn't get the free IH buffs, and requires any marines you might deploy (if you ever even did) are required to be more expensive not even getting it for free. And yeah it's not in every competitive list either. White Scars are first then Gravstars (I think this is UM usually?) and then Iron Hands.

As for the BY rules, I think he means he would rather have that than champions of chaos which honestly I will have to agree on.

 Jancoran wrote:
I just don't know what to say. It's so odd to hear people bagging on the codex.

It doesn't have to be a top tier codex for a good general to win with it.

Everyone seems to want an auto win button and we get these threads about how a codex sucks even though there are people out here verifiably and consistently winning. Why argue with success. Figure out what they're doing RIGHT and emulate it. Or better yet, make your own.

It takes PRACTICE to win. I understand people who dont get to play often jumping off the cliff at every disappointment but I wish those people would admit their lack of perspective.

You obviously haven't read the thread. No one wants an auto win button. We want a codex that let's us build the fluffy army of out choice and is not Marines -1 which it currently is. We would also like for our codex to be somewhat competative and not rely on a crutch unit but that's minor.

It would be nice if our troop selection wasn't Cultists or bust at this point.

I said this in another thread but, no one likes being forced into a HQ selection to unlock absurdly expensive troop choices.

294 Points for 10 Noise Marines - 7 Sonic Blasters + 2 Blast Masters and FNP is already hard on the point scheme. We shouldn't need to bring a bare naked 65+15 point lord just to make them troops.

Nurgle is even worse, try getting 240 points of Plague Marines bare naked only to invest 30 points into special weapons and realize you need to buy a Lord or take Typhus to unlock them as troops... thats another 230 points investment, for just unlocking them, let alone trying to outfit him to actually survive CC at some point.

Just to put that into perspective.

240 points squad of 10 Plague Marines

at 24pts/model

230 Points for Typhus

Factor his point cost into your Plague Marines at an addition of 23 points per model, effectively making your Plague Marines 47 points per model if you want them to be troops.

Bare Naked Lord is 65 Points + 15 points for Mark of Nurgle for a total of 80 points

divide his uselessness in points cost up into your squad and you're effectively paying 8 points extra per model. Not bad but he's absolutely garbage and a free Warlord kill if anything sneezes on him.

Optimal Chaos Lord of Nurgle

65 Base
15 Mark
20 Bike
55 points for Burning Brand and a Power Fist
25 Points for Sigil
Total = 180 points

Divide that up and you got 18 points extra per model just to unlock them as troops.

Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.

 Jancoran wrote:
Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.

I dunno. I still just think the Baledrake is too good. Nasty flamer, nasty vector strike, it's a painful combination. Also, I really can't entirely agree with your anti-air statement. There aren't even all that many factions with their own AA let alone good worthwhile not overpriced AA. Granted at least it's not Necron flying bakery level where having some means nothing. Drakes are basically one of the few good things about the codex. Problem being it is too good.

Most imperial armies can battlebrother tau , that is automaticly more the 50% armies having access to skyfire/interceptor units.
The fact that sm , the mostly played army , puts a buffmander in their centurion stars alongside coteaz , means flyers have to realy be tough or spamed for some of them to survive

Jancoran wrote:Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.

For me, the problem with this statement is that it basically just adds another layer to a game that's already exceedingly rock-paper-scissor like in its execution.

But the problem is that AA-guns are not multi-purpose.

For example, if I bring several Lascannons, and my opponent goes all infantry, then I can still use my Lascannons to engage his heavy elite infantry. But if I bring a couple of Hydras and my opponent doesn't bring any flyers... Then what... I've just waisted a lot of points on a unit that's forced to Snapfire the rest of the battle.

Flyers fail, balance-wise, because they need a hard counter or they're going to kill you. You need specialized units to take them out and those units are mainly either insanely overpriced (like Flakk missiles) or nearly useless against anything else (like the Hydra).

Of course, this is just as Games Workshop intended it to be. First we all bought flyers. And then we bought AA-guns to counter them. Mission accomplished...

Makumba wrote:Most imperial armies can battlebrother tau , that is automaticly more the 50% armies having access to skyfire/interceptor units.
The fact that sm , the mostly played army , puts a buffmander in their centurion stars alongside coteaz , means flyers have to realy be tough or spamed for some of them to survive

So the counter to flyer spam is allies spam?

Sigh...

Did I hear anyone say "cheese"? Or possibly even "broken-beyond-repair rules"?

So the counter to flyer spam is allies spam?

You can't realy spam ally , 2 units of broadsides and 2 riptides in a space marine army under 1999kpts is not spam , and it would make the marine part of the list realy small.

For example, if I bring several Lascannons, and my opponent goes all infantry, then I can still use my Lascannons to engage his heavy elite infantry. But if I bring a couple of Hydras and my opponent doesn't bring any flyers... Then what... I've just waisted a lot of points on a unit that's forced to Snapfire the rest of the battle.

Then do take bad AA units , take good ones who can switch from being AA to normal anti tank or anti meq. Yes the hydra is bad , don't buy it then. For the cost of 2 hydras you could buy a 4-5 broadsides and a riptide in resin.

Makumba wrote:

So the counter to flyer spam is allies spam?

You can't realy spam ally , 2 units of broadsides and 2 riptides in a space marine army under 1999kpts is not spam , and it would make the marine part of the list realy small.

For example, if I bring several Lascannons, and my opponent goes all infantry, then I can still use my Lascannons to engage his heavy elite infantry. But if I bring a couple of Hydras and my opponent doesn't bring any flyers... Then what... I've just waisted a lot of points on a unit that's forced to Snapfire the rest of the battle.

Then do take bad AA units , take good ones who can switch from being AA to normal anti tank or anti meq. Yes the hydra is bad , don't buy it then. For the cost of 2 hydras you could buy a 4-5 broadsides and a riptide in resin.

And so, again, the answer is to spam allies?

No, my regiment are zenophobic nutcases who will not, under any circumstance, work together with dirty zenos scum!

See, that's the problem. Flyers require such a hard counter that you're forced, like it or not, to abuse the allies-chart in order to protect yourself.

Now, if the Hydra had Interceptor it might not be as bad as it could then double as anti-infantry or even anti-vehicle in some circumstances. But alas...


Compare with Marines, for example. I do not need to abuse no allies to counter them. I could do a hard counter with tons of Plasma, yes. But I could equally well leave the Plasma at home and use the extra points to bring lots of extra bodies to help overwhelm the Marines in close combat. Plasma help and it's also usable against other targets than just Marines, but it's not a must-have.

Of course, this is just as Games Workshop intended it to be. First we all bought flyers. And then we bought AA-guns to counter them. Mission accomplished...

Don't you play IG? The one army ingame who usually had 3 flyers due to how powerful they were even as skimmers in 5th?

Course in all honesty they've been planning it for a while, considering armies in 5th slowly gained flyers even before 6th, DE having some, GK, BA, IG, Necrons.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Of course, this is just as Games Workshop intended it to be. First we all bought flyers. And then we bought AA-guns to counter them. Mission accomplished...

Don't you play IG? The one army ingame who usually had 3 flyers due to how powerful they were even as skimmers in 5th?

Course in all honesty they've been planning it for a while, considering armies in 5th slowly gained flyers even before 6th, DE having some, GK, BA, IG, Necrons.

You know if you think about it, 40k planes are brilliantly designed. They are built in such a way they can fly at extremely low speeds

f2k wrote:
But if I bring a couple of Hydras and my opponent doesn't bring any flyers... Then what... I've just waisted a lot of points on a unit that's forced to Snapfire the rest of the battle.

Don't foget that Skyfire works on Skimmers too. So even if Tau or Eldar don't bring flyers you still have something to shoot at.

If you are really having that much trouble with AA as IG try reading the fast attack section and look at the vendetta entry, you will be greatly relieved.

 Jancoran wrote:
Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.

As others have pointed out, this is completely unfair for many armies.

Wolves and Sisters, to begin with, have zero viable options against flyers (assuming no-Forgeworld). And a no-heldrakes CSM player is exactly in the same position. Saying "screw the background and the play-the-army-you-want, just buy this brand new unit or go allies" does not sound as a fair solution, at least to me.

And completely broken units as the Heldrake that specialize in killing meqs are the reason CSM are becoming irrelevant. Playing "heldrakes&cultists"-CSM vs no-"heldrakes&cultists"-CSM is usually a massacre.

 da001 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.

As others have pointed out, this is completely unfair for many armies.

Wolves and Sisters, to begin with, have zero viable options against flyers (assuming no-Forgeworld). And a no-heldrakes CSM player is exactly in the same position. Saying "screw the background and the play-the-army-you-want, just buy this brand new unit or go allies" does not sound as a fair solution, at least to me.

And completely broken units as the Heldrake that specialize in killing meqs are the reason CSM are becoming irrelevant. Playing "heldrakes&cultists"-CSM vs no-"heldrakes&cultists"-CSM is usually a massacre.

And don't argue better playing skills and tactics because that implies we are superior to that individual. We must look at it as though the two players are of relatively equal playing skill and luck.

 da001 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.

As others have pointed out, this is completely unfair for many armies.

Wolves and Sisters, to begin with, have zero viable options against flyers (assuming no-Forgeworld). And a no-heldrakes CSM player is exactly in the same position. Saying "screw the background and the play-the-army-you-want, just buy this brand new unit or go allies" does not sound as a fair solution, at least to me.

And completely broken units as the Heldrake that specialize in killing meqs are the reason CSM are becoming irrelevant. Playing "heldrakes&cultists"-CSM vs no-"heldrakes&cultists"-CSM is usually a massacre.

My buddies SW have no troubles with fliers, he simply has all his longfang packs with div priests and a fortification of his choice (lately its the skyshield) and fires away. My SoB can usually take them down with mass TL MM from immos. Those armies CAN deal with fliers, its just a matter of how many they can deal with before they get overwhelmed. By then it usually gets to the competitive level and fluff goes out the window

GoliothOnline wrote:
It would be nice if our troop selection wasn't Cultists or bust at this point.

I said this in another thread but, no one likes being forced into a HQ selection to unlock absurdly expensive troop choices.

294 Points for 10 Noise Marines - 7 Sonic Blasters + 2 Blast Masters and FNP is already hard on the point scheme. We shouldn't need to bring a bare naked 65+15 point lord just to make them troops.

Nurgle is even worse, try getting 240 points of Plague Marines bare naked only to invest 30 points into special weapons and realize you need to buy a Lord or take Typhus to unlock them as troops... thats another 230 points investment, for just unlocking them, let alone trying to outfit him to actually survive CC at some point.

Just to put that into perspective.

240 points squad of 10 Plague Marines

at 24pts/model

230 Points for Typhus

Factor his point cost into your Plague Marines at an addition of 23 points per model, effectively making your Plague Marines 47 points per model if you want them to be troops.

Bare Naked Lord is 65 Points + 15 points for Mark of Nurgle for a total of 80 points

divide his uselessness in points cost up into your squad and you're effectively paying 8 points extra per model. Not bad but he's absolutely garbage and a free Warlord kill if anything sneezes on him.

Optimal Chaos Lord of Nurgle

65 Base
15 Mark
20 Bike
55 points for Burning Brand and a Power Fist
25 Points for Sigil
Total = 180 points

Divide that up and you got 18 points extra per model just to unlock them as troops.

The additional cost per model goes down the more units you buy though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
It would be nice if our troop selection wasn't Cultists or bust at this point.

I said this in another thread but, no one likes being forced into a HQ selection to unlock absurdly expensive troop choices.

294 Points for 10 Noise Marines - 7 Sonic Blasters + 2 Blast Masters and FNP is already hard on the point scheme. We shouldn't need to bring a bare naked 65+15 point lord just to make them troops.

Nurgle is even worse, try getting 240 points of Plague Marines bare naked only to invest 30 points into special weapons and realize you need to buy a Lord or take Typhus to unlock them as troops... thats another 230 points investment, for just unlocking them, let alone trying to outfit him to actually survive CC at some point.

Just to put that into perspective.

240 points squad of 10 Plague Marines

at 24pts/model

230 Points for Typhus

Factor his point cost into your Plague Marines at an addition of 23 points per model, effectively making your Plague Marines 47 points per model if you want them to be troops.

Bare Naked Lord is 65 Points + 15 points for Mark of Nurgle for a total of 80 points

divide his uselessness in points cost up into your squad and you're effectively paying 8 points extra per model. Not bad but he's absolutely garbage and a free Warlord kill if anything sneezes on him.

Optimal Chaos Lord of Nurgle

65 Base
15 Mark
20 Bike
55 points for Burning Brand and a Power Fist
25 Points for Sigil
Total = 180 points

Divide that up and you got 18 points extra per model just to unlock them as troops.

The additional cost per model goes down the more units you buy though.

Drawback being you lock yourself out of vehicles though and in most factions it just means an extra bolter gun.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
It would be nice if our troop selection wasn't Cultists or bust at this point.

I said this in another thread but, no one likes being forced into a HQ selection to unlock absurdly expensive troop choices.

294 Points for 10 Noise Marines - 7 Sonic Blasters + 2 Blast Masters and FNP is already hard on the point scheme. We shouldn't need to bring a bare naked 65+15 point lord just to make them troops.

Nurgle is even worse, try getting 240 points of Plague Marines bare naked only to invest 30 points into special weapons and realize you need to buy a Lord or take Typhus to unlock them as troops... thats another 230 points investment, for just unlocking them, let alone trying to outfit him to actually survive CC at some point.

Just to put that into perspective.

240 points squad of 10 Plague Marines

at 24pts/model

230 Points for Typhus

Factor his point cost into your Plague Marines at an addition of 23 points per model, effectively making your Plague Marines 47 points per model if you want them to be troops.

Bare Naked Lord is 65 Points + 15 points for Mark of Nurgle for a total of 80 points

divide his uselessness in points cost up into your squad and you're effectively paying 8 points extra per model. Not bad but he's absolutely garbage and a free Warlord kill if anything sneezes on him.

Optimal Chaos Lord of Nurgle

65 Base
15 Mark
20 Bike
55 points for Burning Brand and a Power Fist
25 Points for Sigil
Total = 180 points

Divide that up and you got 18 points extra per model just to unlock them as troops.

The additional cost per model goes down the more units you buy though.

Drawback being you lock yourself out of vehicles though and in most factions it just means an extra bolter gun.

No, as in, if you take 2 squads of 10 Plague Marines the cost is only 9 PPM "extra" as opposed to 18. Even then, you're still forced to take an HQ, so you can furthre subtract the cost of taking a bare-bones HQ from the Cult Troops. Further, no one else really takes barebones HQs anyway, so the cost for some of the gear could probably be considered "outside" the Plague Marine cost as well. Really, the only argument you have is that you're forced to take a Lord instead of a Sorcerer or Daemon Prince, but then again Vanilla Marines taking Bike lists have to do that too, as do armoured battlegroups, Wolf Guard lists, Sanguinary Guard lists, and so on and so forth. You're really not any worse off on that front than anyone else.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.

I dunno. I still just think the Baledrake is too good. Nasty flamer, nasty vector strike, it's a painful combination. Also, I really can't entirely agree with your anti-air statement. There aren't even all that many factions with their own AA let alone good worthwhile not overpriced AA. Granted at least it's not Necron flying bakery level where having some means nothing. Drakes are basically one of the few good things about the codex. Problem being it is too good.

So let's think this through for a sec... Held rakes are not fighting alone. So if Three Drakes is too good... Why aren't they dominating when they play? We'll know the answer. They're not too good. They're too good WHEN it's allowed to do what it wants. But that only happens when the enemy makes no provisions against it which is not in itself an indictment of the unit but of the enemy.

You can SAY that you resent having to pay for anti air but what's the point? That's like resenting having to take meltas against hull spam!!! Hydras work against skimmers and flyers. Not just flyers. So sure if NO ONE ever plays those... Lol

The cheese moved. Some resent it. That's a choice. But the title of this thread was if chaos was irrelevant. How can it be when you can play 2-3 drakes? And I'm playing Night Lords w Raptors and winning so I don't buy anyone selling that chaos is irrelevant

Just taint true

A combination of things. One, the CSM codex overall is a horribly balanced sub par codex. Two, the top tier codices actually have some nasty counters or have abilities that can largely ignore them. Even then, if you observe the competitive meta you can notice the only time CSM come in the tops it's because they were allied in with daemons specifically to give: 1 Heldrake, 1 squad of cultists, and either a cheap lord or a DP. It's pretty darn good and even with a bit of AA it still has a AV of 12 and an invuln of 5+ not to mention it will not die. I'm not saying it's the most broken thing of the world but it does out perform. Toss the unit in daemons, Eldar, or Tau and you'd probably see it played more.

Also I can't take your Night Lords with Raptors and winning as evidence. I've played with a friend that's won with pyrovores and I've bested people with a mark of tzeentch CSM army. Luck, differing skill levels, meta, overall build efficiency... there are a lot of factors that add to it. My big problem here is how is your exception the rule? How can you just toss away competitive values like they are nothing and only use your own experience as evidence?

Finally, the biggest difference between AA and AT is that AA just isn't as common. And no, allying should never be a requirement. Look at a CSM list. There's not really an answer to it besides just spamming guns and spending a turn to hopefully kill it, buying missiles with flak which really aren't good, or to get the dakkadrake which isn't as good as the baledrake by any means. As per them being good, bloody hell they can counter almost nearly half of the armies. AP3 that is actually good! Bikers devastated, tacticals and all Sv3, devastated. Even with 4 it is still somewhat nasty. Also helps that he can fly over, pop open a vehicle and flame the contents within with relative ease.

For that matter, I'll admit I don't really care for flyers in this game. Choppers and slower moving air vehicles? Alright then but these ones not as much.

I've only ever played a couple small scale semi-competitive games with my AL CSM, with Huron as Warlord, but I do find that infiltrating a flying DP with the Burning Brand and Dimensional key can work very nicely. Plus if things work out I can get 2 squads of CSM with bolters and ccw infiltrating. I've found my key thing is know the enemy, and yourself. CSM are more of a jack-of-all trades, master-of-non army so build a take all list with each unit holding a particular skill set. Focusing on CC isn't the way to go anymore, but adding a CC unit in a box to run the side of the board while you hold the enemy with concentrated fire is a tacticaly strong idea. Like I said, I've only played semi-competitive but I felt like I should give my little in sight.

If you can't win with it, then you can't win with it. But that's not the codex's fault. Ive demonstrated that.

 Jancoran wrote:
If you can't win with it, then you can't win with it. But that's not the codex's fault. Ive demonstrated that.

Incorrect. That implies that all units are equal for starters. It also implies that I am a superior tactician to my foe. Problem is, the game never will always have these two factors. Overall, CSM is one of the lesser codices. It, brought against a good eldar/tau/etc. player with at least decent list, assuming the two of you have an equal skill level, will lead to the eldar/tau/etc player winning the vast majority of the time.

Actually it doesn't "imply" any of that"

 Jancoran wrote:
If you can't win with it, then you can't win with it. But that's not the codex's fault. Ive demonstrated that.

If this sounds a bit offensive, that's because it was ment to be...

"I beat my opponent with a synapse-less Tyranid list of nothing but gaunts and a death leaper! Tyranids are amazing and I have no idea why anyone would say the codex is bad. I proved that it isn't!"

Now, can you tell me how ridiculous that sounds?

 TheArchitect wrote:
I've only ever played a couple small scale semi-competitive games with my AL CSM, with Huron as Warlord, but I do find that infiltrating a flying DP with the Burning Brand and Dimensional key can work very nicely.

Don't mean to be a spoilsport but this isn't legal. Master of Deception allows you to nominate D3 Infantry units to infiltrate. Daemon Prince is a Monstrous Creature.

 Jancoran wrote:
If you can't win with it, then you can't win with it. But that's not the codex's fault. Ive demonstrated that.

Personal evidence means Jack all, we don't convict people in court just on the word of a witness, if someone came up to you and said the moon was missing you would not take their word for it.

Tournament s give us solid data and they show csm isn't competitive, the fact you can beat a friend with them means nothing for all we know he's a terrible general that builds crap lists.