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GW started raising prices before the falling sales. As I understand it (having come in at tail of 5th) the rules have always been gak. If bad rules was the problem it would have been shown in the financial results long ago.

 Yonan wrote:
GW started raising prices before the falling sales. As I understand it (having come in at tail of 5th) the rules have always been gak. If bad rules was the problem it would have been shown in the financial results long ago.

GW's issues are much deeper than simply better rules (they really haven't changed much in 15 years) or cheaper models (lots of companies cost more per figure) or even ridiculous releases (40K has really always been a parody of...well everything). The issue with GW is really GW.

Even if they cut their prices in half over night, I don't think you would see a rush of customers back or store owners making room for them on the shelves again. Even if they hired the best rules writers available and had them write a set of solid, balanced, play tested and edited set of rules...it would likely not change things for most people. They have managed, over the past 20 years of management decisions, to alienate one group after another and they have gotten to the point where the ones who are left are not buying enough to keep up with their rising expenses (largely management expenses at that).

For things to change - what would need to happen is for GW to reinvent themselves and then do the hard work of actually convincing people that they have changed. Considering they are still trying to mess around with things like the ACCC application in Australia, appear to still be following the same insane pricing (not a failure on its own - but as part of the collective behavior), rules for the bean counters not for the game...it doesn't look like GW will be reinventing themselves anytime soon.

Yeah they're showing no signs of reducing the idiocy, it's just speeding up with worse pricing on new releases, Murderface Murdersson, insane legal stunts (not in a good way) and so on.

The new undead guy is $AU150 ($US140) for two sprues, and $US105 on your end. Neither is anywhere near acceptable imo.

Talking from the UK perspective, model wise I think the 20% most FLGS offer puts GW stuff at just about right.

I do think GW needs to stop with all these fancy rule books, army books, etc. and offer a mini rule/codex that's literally just the rules/army lists, and what we currently have now as the standard rulebook/army book.

Data slates are a rip off. They should be half price.

I think many people fall into the trap that a 40% price drop will result in GW making equal or more profit than they do now. It may work for other industries but I'm not convinced it would for GW.

Certain releases should be given out for free with a handwritten apology. Buy generally, £10-15 for a squad of 10 guys, and £20-25 for a box of 20 guys. Characters can be £8-10. Vehicles... I dunno. £15-25?

chnmmr wrote:
Talking from the UK perspective, model wise I think the 20% most FLGS offer puts GW stuff at just about right.

I do think GW needs to stop with all these fancy rule books, army books, etc. and offer a mini rule/codex that's literally just the rules/army lists, and what we currently have now as the standard rulebook/army book.

Data slates are a rip off. They should be half price.

I think many people fall into the trap that a 40% price drop will result in GW making equal or more profit than they do now. It may work for other industries but I'm not convinced it would for GW.

The thing to keep in mind though is that for most of the world - just dropping it down to the actual UK retail price and applying a FLGS discount actually ends up being a 40-60% discount. Between the VAT and the screw Canada and Australia taxes...

The other thing of course is that of GW's personnel - 353 of the 1753 employees are involved with designing or manufacturing the products. 1000 or so are retail store employees. The rest are paper pushers and bean counters. They could likely save £5 million by eliminating redundant administrative positions. The retail arm provides 42% of total sales (£51 million) but it costs them £35 million to make those sales (likely more than that as that doesn't include things like utilities, insurance and other expenses). They make more money selling through independent stores, and could make even more if they cut the retail arm entirely.

Boyz: I'd be happy with $20 a box. Less than $15 wouldn't garner profits.

Nobz: I actually think it's fine as it is. Down to like $20 would be nice, but for all the bitz we get I'm fine with it

Lootas/Burnas: Again, fine with the price. See above

Trukk: The Trukk is too expensive. I feel it should be $25-$30ish

Tankbustas: $25. Finecast isn't that great and they are monopose models.

Kommandos: See Tankbustas

Meganobz: $40. Again. The extra bitz are worth $40. NOT $63.

ALL HQ's: $18-$25 Ghazzy might be worth more but not $40. MAAAAAYBE $32, but not $40

Battlewagons: Eh... $45ish

Killakanz: $30-$35

Deffdread: $30-$35

Mekgunz: $25-$30

Orkanaut: $70-$85

Stompa: $95-$120

About 25 to 50% less depending on the model. Blood Knights at $80+ is absurdity.

 -Loki- wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
Make no mistake not many of us are willing to jump ship as a hobbyists some of us are glued to GW. Nothing else will do and as I mentioned before I believe there us a fine line between a gamer and a collector which brings in a classification I believe to be OCD. We won't acknowledge it but trust me we would be pushing to own these branded minis whatever the cost if there were no other alternative

I'm a hobbyist, and classify myself more of a collector than a gamer. Yet I broke away from Games Workshop.

Stating that hobbyists and collectors stick to Games Workshop is kind of insulting. As a hobbyist and collector, there's far, far, far more out there than Games Workshop, and more than companies that make model lines with their games. There's so many miniature makers our there making models for no reason other than to be collectible that to stick to Games Workshops products only and call yourself a hobbyist and collector really only shows ignorance of the actual hobby. Games Workshop is not the hobby.

It's a case of how flexible you are in each dept of your hobby. Some of us are flexible but others won't mix and match to prove a point that GW doesn't rule the world. This is down to someone wanting to collect and stick to a specific line just because they choose to. I know about 6 people who do this and I'm not even properly in the scene.

I don't see how you see my point as ignorant as it's a choice people have to invest in what they want? Does that mean were stupid or narrow minded? I dont think so because I'm sure all people like me know eat else is out there additional to GW. I know what's about and appreciate and respect it but I wouldn't purchase them as they don't belong with me as a collector. I will even admit there are better detailed things out there but again it doesn't swallow with me. I like GW, I'm not a nerd for GW because I will purchase what I want from any source available. If that makes me a non loyal collector so be it in not bothered because I'm just after the product and not from where it comes from.

 kerikhaos wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
Make no mistake not many of us are willing to jump ship as a hobbyists some of us are glued to GW. Nothing else will do and as I mentioned before I believe there us a fine line between a gamer and a collector which brings in a classification I believe to be OCD. We won't acknowledge it but trust me we would be pushing to own these branded minis whatever the cost if there were no other alternative

I'm a hobbyist, and classify myself more of a collector than a gamer. Yet I broke away from Games Workshop.

Stating that hobbyists and collectors stick to Games Workshop is kind of insulting. As a hobbyist and collector, there's far, far, far more out there than Games Workshop, and more than companies that make model lines with their games. There's so many miniature makers our there making models for no reason other than to be collectible that to stick to Games Workshops products only and call yourself a hobbyist and collector really only shows ignorance of the actual hobby. Games Workshop is not the hobby.

It's a case of how flexible you are in each dept of your hobby. Some of us are flexible but others won't mix and match to prove a point that GW doesn't rule the world. This is down to someone wanting to collect and stick to a specific line just because they choose to. I know about 6 people who do this and I'm not even properly in the scene.

I don't see how you see my point as ignorant as it's a choice people have to invest in what they want? Does that mean were stupid or narrow minded? I dont think so because I'm sure all people like me know eat else is out there additional to GW. I know what's about and appreciate and respect it but I wouldn't purchase them as they don't belong with me as a collector. I will even admit there are better detailed things out there but again it doesn't swallow with me. I like GW, I'm not a nerd for GW because I will purchase what I want from any source available. If that makes me a non loyal collector so be it in not bothered because I'm just after the product and not from where it comes from.

Keep in mind that GW's most recent set of financial statements indicate that people like you (who will always choose to buy GW products over any competitor) are becoming more and more rare.

I could stomach $3/Space Marine. So that's $30/box of 10. IIRC, that woud be 25% off what they're charging now.

So my magic number is 25% off current pricing, and I stop automatically looking for conversion stuff as my first step in filling my 40k needs.

Never happen, but there ya go.

Saldiven wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
Make no mistake not many of us are willing to jump ship as a hobbyists some of us are glued to GW. Nothing else will do and as I mentioned before I believe there us a fine line between a gamer and a collector which brings in a classification I believe to be OCD. We won't acknowledge it but trust me we would be pushing to own these branded minis whatever the cost if there were no other alternative

I'm a hobbyist, and classify myself more of a collector than a gamer. Yet I broke away from Games Workshop.

Stating that hobbyists and collectors stick to Games Workshop is kind of insulting. As a hobbyist and collector, there's far, far, far more out there than Games Workshop, and more than companies that make model lines with their games. There's so many miniature makers our there making models for no reason other than to be collectible that to stick to Games Workshops products only and call yourself a hobbyist and collector really only shows ignorance of the actual hobby. Games Workshop is not the hobby.

It's a case of how flexible you are in each dept of your hobby. Some of us are flexible but others won't mix and match to prove a point that GW doesn't rule the world. This is down to someone wanting to collect and stick to a specific line just because they choose to. I know about 6 people who do this and I'm not even properly in the scene.

I don't see how you see my point as ignorant as it's a choice people have to invest in what they want? Does that mean were stupid or narrow minded? I dont think so because I'm sure all people like me know eat else is out there additional to GW. I know what's about and appreciate and respect it but I wouldn't purchase them as they don't belong with me as a collector. I will even admit there are better detailed things out there but again it doesn't swallow with me. I like GW, I'm not a nerd for GW because I will purchase what I want from any source available. If that makes me a non loyal collector so be it in not bothered because I'm just after the product and not from where it comes from.

Keep in mind that GW's most recent set of financial statements indicate that people like you (who will always choose to buy GW products over any competitor) are becoming more and more rare.

I'm pretty sure the stats show sales from their own shops. People like myself won't be on those stats because we buy from a cheaper source as were not light headed like that. Plus there are still many who JUST run the eBay circuit and just buy from their. Again those stats won't show and to be fair the stats from GW can't be that of evidence because if it's actually showing anything it's just proving their losing direct customers.

 jonolikespie wrote:

GW is no a *little* more expensive, I have literally bought a full infinity army and everything needed to play it for less than GW charges us Aussies for the 2 rulebooks required to play 40k.

And the fact that GW charges Aussies TWICE as much for 40K than the rest of us, and Infinity does not and uses less models to play, has nothing to do with that ?

Also, I just did a quick check, the US Infinity models price per model is comparable to GW models.

 adamsouza wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

GW is no a *little* more expensive, I have literally bought a full infinity army and everything needed to play it for less than GW charges us Aussies for the 2 rulebooks required to play 40k.

And the fact that GW charges Aussies TWICE as much for 40K than the rest of us, and Infinity does not and uses less models to play, has nothing to do with that ?

... of course it does? That's the point? GW is the only tabletop company unethical enough to pull a bullgak stunt like that. Amusingly, copyright violations skyrocket down here when companies pull stunts like that, be it software, media or in GWs case, easily copyable miniatures and books.

 Yonan wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

GW is not a *little* more expensive, I have literally bought a full infinity army and everything needed to play it for less than GW charges us Aussies for the 2 rulebooks required to play 40k.

And the fact that GW charges Aussies TWICE as much for 40K than the rest of us, and Infinity does not and uses less models to play, has nothing to do with that ?

... of course it does? That's the point? GW is the only tabletop company unethical enough to pull a bullgak stunt like that. Amusingly, copyright violations skyrocket down here when companies pull stunts like that, be it software, media or in GWs case, easily copyable miniatures and books.

Yep. The last 2 season openers and maybe a finale too for Game of Thrones have broken legit records for most pirated show down here in ye ol' land of Oz because the only way we can legally view it is by paying Foxtel for like 20 other channels you don't want.

Bringing it back to the point Adam was trying to make though, I bought 16 metal models for something like $165. Metal. That's the key word there. Metal. An infinity army is essentially a group of hero characters on the table, even if they are not statted like that the technical details and materials used do put them on par with hero characters from other companies, you can't compare them to mass produced plastics.
So I bought 16 hero models for $165 in metal, that's a little over $10 a model.
Now, I don't know why I should care about what GW charge the US but ok lets compare for arguments sake. What I am seeing is $22.25 for a single 28mm Finecast character model.
Model for Model infinity is cheaper. GW doesn't have a leg to stand on in this argument.

A lot cheaper. There pieces of plastic, they get enough money out of everyone for the paints, brushes and everything else you need!

Yes, because clearly a multi million dollar, international company can survive on just the profit from $4-8 items that they pay someone else to produce for them and slap their name on the label. Paints and brushes are a tiny drop in a very large bucket. To say they can considerably cut prices on models because they make a lot of profit on paint, brushes and glue is ridiculous to the point of undermining the whole premise of your argument. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see a price drop, I'm saying that qualifying it with a statement like that is not going to win you any debates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also saying "they're pieces of plastic" would be ignoring the millions of dollars it takes to hire a sculptor, make the original, figure out how to organize the sprues, buy the equipment to produce them, write an assembly manual, print boxes up, hire people to put the sprues and manuals in boxes, them ship them all over the planet. That $.50 of plastic doesn't just magically assemble itself into sprues of perfect little army men and teleport itself to your local store.

 kerikhaos wrote:

I'm pretty sure the stats show sales from their own shops. People like myself won't be on those stats because we buy from a cheaper source as were not light headed like that. Plus there are still many who JUST run the eBay circuit and just buy from their. Again those stats won't show and to be fair the stats from GW can't be that of evidence because if it's actually showing anything it's just proving their losing direct customers.

You're wrong. The financial report shows the sales through all of their channels (and that includes sales to third parties as well), and they have pretty much all dropped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Toofast wrote:

Also saying "they're pieces of plastic" would be ignoring the millions of dollars it takes to hire a sculptor, make the original, figure out how to organize the sprues, buy the equipment to produce them, write an assembly manual, print boxes up, hire people to put the sprues and manuals in boxes, them ship them all over the planet. That $.50 of plastic doesn't just magically assemble itself into sprues of perfect little army men and teleport itself to your local store.

GW has mentioned an average profitability of around 70% on each of their miniature kits, that means after all the development and production costs have been factored in and, AFAIK, that is taking into consideration the money that they get when selling to retailers and not the final price that the consumer pays (you need to slap about an extra 40% on top for that).

GW doesn't set model prices based on their production and development costs, they set their model prices based on how much they think their customers will pay for them.

PhantomViper wrote:

GW doesn't set model prices based on their production and development costs, they set their model prices based on how much they think their customers will pay for them.

Strangely enough all companies do this.

It's just a problem when the total costs for the product are so large that they still don't make much profit from them. Hence GW's problems with their huge fixed costs thanks to their retail chain and associated human resources.

Well, before we assume to make them so cheap, because at your prices they would probably use crap plastic. First, I'd want to see their profit margine, i think maybe taking 10% off of current prices wouldn't hurt their business to much.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Well, before we assume to make them so cheap, because at your prices they would probably use crap plastic.

Or bad resin.

I mean, imagine if their resin models were advertised as these amazing things, yet were actually brittle, bent and frequently full of air-holes.

Wouldn't that be just dreadful?

 Brennonjw wrote:
First, I'd want to see their profit margine,

I believe the average is about 70%.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Well, before we assume to make them so cheap, because at your prices they would probably use crap plastic.

They use the same high impact polystyrene as all those historicals companies that can sell fewer boxes (I assume) for about 50p a figure. Cheaper =/= restic, or PVC, or whatever.

I understand that they still make a good profit, but saying they're too expensive because "they're just pieces of plastic" is like saying cars are too expensive because they're just big metal boxes. It ignores the fact that material is a tiny fraction of the cost of producing something.

Toofast wrote:
I understand that they still make a good profit, but saying they're too expensive because "they're just pieces of plastic" is like saying cars are too expensive because they're just big metal boxes. It ignores the fact that material is a tiny fraction of the cost of producing something.

No, it's not. A "piece of plastic" is stamped out in a few seconds. Basically any cheap "piece of plastic" is stamped out like that. A car takes hundreds of man hours to assemble and only then thanks to billions (tens of? hundreds of?) of dollars in capital and investment, otherwise it would be impossible, take far longer and/or be far inferior, and is made up of thousands of different parts with square kilometres of factory space devoted to producing it. To compare the pre-production or the production of one to the other is ridiculous. Allow me to paraphrase you:

"To compare production of plastic miniatures to production of cars is ridiculous to the point of undermining the whole premise of your argument"

Made to order. You customize the options online and the stores show some options.

 Yonan wrote:

Toofast wrote:
I understand that they still make a good profit, but saying they're too expensive because "they're just pieces of plastic" is like saying cars are too expensive because they're just big metal boxes. It ignores the fact that material is a tiny fraction of the cost of producing something.

No, it's not. A "piece of plastic" is stamped out in a few seconds. Basically any cheap "piece of plastic" is stamped out like that. A car takes hundreds of man hours to assemble and only then thanks to billions (tens of? hundreds of?) of dollars in capital and investment, otherwise it would be impossible, take far longer and/or be far inferior, and is made up of thousands of different parts with square kilometres of factory space devoted to producing it. To compare the pre-production or the production of one to the other is ridiculous. Allow me to paraphrase you:

"To compare production of plastic miniatures to production of cars is ridiculous to the point of undermining the whole premise of your argument"

I get what he was trying to say, that they need time and money to get a sculptor to make the master, then tens of thousands of dollars to make the moulds, but ultimately you're right. Cars are complex and after the mould is paid off a space marine box of two sprues is probably about 20 cents of plastic.

Toofast wrote:
Also saying "they're pieces of plastic" would be ignoring the millions of dollars it takes to hire a sculptor, make the original, figure out how to organize the sprues, buy the equipment to produce them, write an assembly manual, print boxes up, hire people to put the sprues and manuals in boxes, them ship them all over the planet. That $.50 of plastic doesn't just magically assemble itself into sprues of perfect little army men and teleport itself to your local store.

Millions of dollars...well, there is your problem. If GW is spending millions of dollars to develop one kit...

Realistic development costs per kit are closer to $75-100K. Each one will hang around for 10 years or so, and during that time unless it is a even a complete dud will be down in the $5 range for each kit over the life of the product. Toss in a few bucks for manufacturing, and give it a 300% markup, and they should be able to sell almost anything for $30 a box or less and still make a profit. The reality is that most of them sell enough to have the development costs down in the $1 or less range per kit. Actual manufacturing costs are down close to that two (both for the plastic and the fancy box to put them in). Everything else is just waste, that if they would have spent the last 10 years fixing...they would be in a much better position than they are now. While other companies have become more efficient, GW has managed to make themselves much less efficient in doing things.

GW is strangling themselves in their added costs. It is funny though, the past several years, GW has gone through and cut out a lot of the regional HQs and other costs (like Games Day) but they haven't bothered to actually touch the dead weight in Nottingham. Since 2001 - their administrative staff has doubled, while the production and development staff has remained roughly the same. Even with effectively closing down all offices outside of the UK this past year, barely put a dent in the administrative staffing numbers. All of those middle managers are expensive to feed - especially when you consider than there are more people administering then there are people actually making stuff. That would be fine I guess - if they used outside contracts for tooling or manufacturing, but everything is done in house.

From what I hear - they spend almost as much time figuring out how to make sure the next heads on the chopping block are not theirs as they do actually doing anything productive.

Would it almost be better for GW to drop some of its stuff its selling? Do they actually make enough profit off of selling glue, brushes, and tools to warrant making them?

Paint I can see them living off of well.

But the bits around it seem kind of a waste. Between a vice that can barely hold itself down, a pair of clippers I can buy that are smaller at Canadian tire for a third of the price, and brushes I can buy in the bulk at Micheals; how do these items even fair in profit?

Glue in itself, no one I know seems to be a huge fan of. A lot of people in my area use the various super glues or similar. I use Gale Force 9 glue and activator, another guy I know lives off of Gorilla Glue.

Serious question, not a sarcastic one. I imagine these items are not cheap to mass produce or even sell.

OrkaMorka wrote:
Would it almost be better for GW to drop some of its stuff its selling? Do they actually make enough profit off of selling glue, brushes, and tools to warrant making them?

Paint I can see them living off of well.

But the bits around it seem kind of a waste. Between a vice that can barely hold itself down, a pair of clippers I can buy that are smaller at Canadian tire for a third of the price, and brushes I can buy in the bulk at Micheals; how do these items even fair in profit?

Glue in itself, no one I know seems to be a huge fan of. A lot of people in my area use the various super glues or similar. I use Gale Force 9 glue and activator, another guy I know lives off of Gorilla Glue.

Serious question, not a sarcastic one. I imagine these items are not cheap to mass produce or even sell.

They don't manufacture any of those things. They are all made by third party companies and just re-branded by GW.

OrkaMorka wrote:
Would it almost be better for GW to drop some of its stuff its selling? Do they actually make enough profit off of selling glue, brushes, and tools to warrant making them?

They buy them in and sell on at at least 100% markup - the profit for the effort involved is pretty good. Same with paints I believe - it's made by someone else and bought in.

The only stuff they make in house are the minis - even the books and boxes are bought in from printers.