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Melta: Armoured / Heavy Infantry / Mechanised
Flamer: Light Infantry / Cavalry
AA gun: Airborne.

But that is not how it works.A grav cent star is different from a jetseer council and a Eldar mecha list is different from an army runing a LR wall or
1+ knight.


Flamers do nothing cavalery builds, because they have tanking HQs or are t5, and while they can kill demons or low armor save models like IG, the problem with demons is not the number, but how fast they can grind through a mealstorm mission deck while casting powers.

And how do you counter flyer builds with most armies. IG/sob/orks or chaos have no anti air units worth taking in a tac list. Now there are of course armies like eldar who can do AA with serpents , anti tank with firedragons , counter other deathstars and have their own under invisibility and destroy LoW using ally haywires , but that is just one army.

IG have not AA worth taking? they might be the best aegis users, and they got the ability to outright spam shots like no other. and that's before we got into forgeworld toys or their own cool planes.
SoB have bigger issues, but they are still IoM, and can do ally-spree to fix anything.
Orks? moar dakka. considering you are mostly BS2 anyway, shooting at flyers is just half your shots, meaning a flyer takes as much effort as 2 chemiras.
Chaos are known to be screwed at some points, but given they have the godamn king of the skies (heldrake), I don't see how they got AA problems, just vector them down (vector strikes are STRONGER in 7th against airborn targets, only weaker against ground ones.)

As for knights, eldar mech and LD being different-on the counterbuilding part? not so much. the same units I use to take down land raiders are the ones I use to take down necron AV spam and knights, I'm not even thinking of the subject any more, its a few units I auto-include in any list againt any army I play against unless I know as a fact he has no tanks.

Demon summoning factory is proven time after time to be a failure of an army competitively, not sure why you even bring that one up.

Flamers not working on calavary IS true, but than again, calavary lists suffer from very low model count that can be hurt by nearly everything. honestly you dont even need special preparations for them, and if one shows up-all them fancy anti-tank guns you should have gotten are just used as high S "autowound/no save" guns.

As for the mention that nids cant take down knights as they need tons of crones for the needed haywire.
So what? just dont kill them.
Nids can literally spawn high number of fearless mooks, just use all them "useless" gaunts (who are useless as they cant kill anything when its all knights) to tie them up, with the synapse MC standing back and not even bothering to enter the fight, and laugh as his entire army is stuck stepping on tiny bugs while you scoup up all the victory points.
If you cant annihilate them-play the mission. knights SUCK at it. just like any deathstar based army.


You should have no problem in building a TAC list that really has a shot against anything out there if you build your list smart and make your units multi-purpose.
I've learned by now to always get my fire warriors the EMP grenades. not because they are good at it, but because it makes them not useless when facing armored lists.
And when a unit IS "useless"? (say, bolter marines against all-knights), than you find a non-killing use for it. use it as a tarpit, a roadblock, just to hold an objective. if your list have a single unit that is, EVER truly useless-you are doing something wrong.

 BoomWolf wrote:
IG have not AA worth taking? they might be the best aegis users, and they got the ability to outright spam shots like no other. and that's before we got into forgeworld toys or their own cool planes.
SoB have bigger issues, but they are still IoM, and can do ally-spree to fix anything.
Orks? moar dakka. considering you are mostly BS2 anyway, shooting at flyers is just half your shots, meaning a flyer takes as much effort as 2 chemiras.
Chaos are known to be screwed at some points, but given they have the godamn king of the skies (heldrake), I don't see how they got AA problems, just vector them down (vector strikes are STRONGER in 7th against airborn targets, only weaker against ground ones.)

As for knights, eldar mech and LD being different-on the counterbuilding part? not so much. the same units I use to take down land raiders are the ones I use to take down necron AV spam and knights, I'm not even thinking of the subject any more, its a few units I auto-include in any list againt any army I play against unless I know as a fact he has no tanks.

Demon summoning factory is proven time after time to be a failure of an army competitively, not sure why you even bring that one up.

Flamers not working on calavary IS true, but than again, calavary lists suffer from very low model count that can be hurt by nearly everything. honestly you dont even need special preparations for them, and if one shows up-all them fancy anti-tank guns you should have gotten are just used as high S "autowound/no save" guns.

As for the mention that nids cant take down knights as they need tons of crones for the needed haywire.
So what? just dont kill them.
Nids can literally spawn high number of fearless mooks, just use all them "useless" gaunts (who are useless as they cant kill anything when its all knights) to tie them up, with the synapse MC standing back and not even bothering to enter the fight, and laugh as his entire army is stuck stepping on tiny bugs while you scoup up all the victory points.
If you cant annihilate them-play the mission. knights SUCK at it. just like any deathstar based army.


You should have no problem in building a TAC list that really has a shot against anything out there if you build your list smart and make your units multi-purpose.
I've learned by now to always get my fire warriors the EMP grenades. not because they are good at it, but because it makes them not useless when facing armored lists.
And when a unit IS "useless"? (say, bolter marines against all-knights), than you find a non-killing use for it. use it as a tarpit, a roadblock, just to hold an objective. if your list have a single unit that is, EVER truly useless-you are doing something wrong.

My exalts, take all of them!

 BoomWolf wrote:
As for the mention that nids cant take down knights as they need tons of crones for the needed haywire.
So what? just dont kill them.
Nids can literally spawn high number of fearless mooks, just use all them "useless" gaunts (who are useless as they cant kill anything when its all knights) to tie them up, with the synapse MC standing back and not even bothering to enter the fight, and laugh as his entire army is stuck stepping on tiny bugs while you scoup up all the victory points.
If you cant annihilate them-play the mission. knights SUCK at it. just like any deathstar based army.

Have you actually tried this?

It works if you bring a lot of little buggers, I think you'll find many armies don't actually bring the monolithic units required to tie up a Knight for more than 1 or 2 turns. If the Knight decides to charge you, it fires it's double battle cannon shots and stubber shots, a lot of gaunts go splat, that alone could wipe out smaller units and take a chunk out of larger units, it then charges, takes out another 5-10 gaunts, your turn comes around, another 5-10 gaunts drop, by the time it comes to the Knight's turn there's a good chance the Knight is out of combat ready to do it all again. Even a 30 large unit will probably only tie it up for a couple of full game turns (4 combat phases + whatever shooting the Knight got off first).

Yes, those gaunts are cheap, but they only last a turn or 2 against a single Knight so they're a speedbump more than an actual tarpit. If you took TONS of gaunts you could tie them up most of the game and just win by occupying a large amount of the battlefield. But we are talking about a TAC list here.

In a TAC 'nid list, the Knight player just has to look at the start of the game and think "hmmm, what could be a hindrance to me" and just target those things. It could be a unit of Carnifex, so just target them early so they can't do much damage, it could be a swarm of little things, so just drop a few large blasts on them before charging in.

At the end of the day, Tyranids are going to struggle with 1 or 2 Knights and not really have an answer for 3 or 4 or more.

I've had to tweak my Eldar slightly b/c of IK showing up in higher numbers. A lot will also vary based on playing a one off game or in a tourney. Roughly, some changes as follows:

2 x 3 War Walkers (one off game: 6 Brightlances/ tourney 3 Scatterlaser, 3 Brightlances)
1 x 3 Hornets with Pulse Lasers (outflanks for side and rear armor)
1 x 1 Wraithknight (2 x S10 shots and assault capability)

I've not faced 5 yet. The most have been 3 in a single game at 1850 points. There are some other reasonable options: Swooping Hawks, Wraithguard, Warp Spiders and hitting rear armor, D-Cannons, Fire Dragons, Wave Serpents lending support to strip a couple of Hull Points.

Makumba wrote:

Melta: Armoured / Heavy Infantry / Mechanised
Flamer: Light Infantry / Cavalry
AA gun: Airborne.

But that is not how it works.A grav cent star is different from a jetseer council and a Eldar mecha list is different from an army runing a LR wall or
1+ knight.


Flamers do nothing cavalery builds, because they have tanking HQs or are t5, and while they can kill demons or low armor save models like IG, the problem with demons is not the number, but how fast they can grind through a mealstorm mission deck while casting powers.

And how do you counter flyer builds with most armies. IG/sob/orks or chaos have no anti air units worth taking in a tac list. Now there are of course armies like eldar who can do AA with serpents , anti tank with firedragons , counter other deathstars and have their own under invisibility and destroy LoW using ally haywires , but that is just one army.

It almost sounds like you expect flamers to just stand in front of the enemy shooting at the toughest part of the enemy unit or something... thing is, if they have a super-HQ tanking at the front of the unit, use your anti-tank guns (you have them: you're TAC) to take out the HQ so your anti-horde can get at the squishier cavalry.

Flier builds? Well, my TAC list for Sisters includes an Avenger, soo... unless they spam aircraft, I'm good. For everything else, there's TL ignores cover melta guns.

Ways I have seen certain army builds beat a Knight heavy army (there are two at my store who play very regularly) and though they have won a good number of their games they have still lost a good number, in particular to the following:

IMPERIAL GUARD & MILITARIUM TEMPESTUS:

-Large amounts of Leman Russ Battle Tanks: Vanquishers and Demolishers work pretty well.
-Veterans with Melta Guns: Rush them up in Chimeras or Taurox's, or even out of Valkyries.
-Vendettas: The BEST Imperial Guard AA BT.
-Deep Striking Stormtroopers with Melta: Really helps to get behind and on the sides, to limit the Ion Shields effectiveness
-Superheavies: Shadowswords in particular are awesome.
-Tarpitting with squads of x50 Guardsmen with a priest to make them Fearless: Works amazing with a Tank heavy army, they Tarpit the Knights that get close.

TAU AND FARSIGHT ENCLAVES:

-Deepstirking Fusion Crisis Suits: Excellent for getting on the sides and rear of the Knight so the Ion Shield is not effective.
-Broadsides: Need Large #'s of them but especially with the Support Firebase Cadre with Tank hunter helps.
-Fire Warriors with EMP Grenades: The best build to Counter Knights ive seen for Tau, spam Devilfish with the 3+ Jink and squads of x6-x12 Fire Warriors with EMP Grenades. To many targets for the Knights to take down and to win through weight of numbers.
-Riptides: Give them Fusion and the Ion Accelerator and try to use their Jump Move to the best of their ability to stay ahead of the speedy Knights. Deepstriking them actually worked for me in one game as I surrounded one on three sides and took it down.
-Hammerheads: Not very effective as their only one shot but if you need the added anti-tank you could get lucky and sneak a pen in. Give then an Ion Cannon and try to get them on the flank or rear.

DARK ELDAR AND ELDAR:

-Dark Lance spam: This works amazing for the Dark Eldar and TAC lists as its their best form of Anti-Tank. Ive seen a Dark Lance heavy list drop a full Knight and half of another Knight in one turn.
-Iyanden Eldar: So many S10 shots that they cannot handle it, especially when they are in Wave Serpents with their shields still active as they can only be glanced and maneuver around them.
-Scourges and Fire Dragons: Both great anti-vehicle options and with them either Deep Striking or in Wave Serpents it really makes it difficult to take them out before their deliver their payload.

SPACE MARINES:

-Centurions: A unit of these can reliably drop a Knight a turn if you have enough luck, take a few units of these and you really have a good chance.
-Drop Pod Marines: Definitly requiring luck on the turn you come in (Salamander Tactics work great) drop all of them and hope to punch some Melta through.
-Thunderhammer & Stormshiled Terminators: As long as he doesn't roll a 6 to wound you still get your 3+ Invulnerable save, pretty tanky against the Knight, also helps to be delivered in a Storm Raven or Landraider to get to charge it so they don't take a Hammer of Wrath hit.

TYRANIDS:

-Crone Spam: Take a lot of these for the haywire and Vector Strikes, combined with Fly Tyrants they do a pretty decent job.
-Gaunt Swarm: Since your Guants are fearless and he cant instant kill your MC's Tarpit them with swarms of fearless Guants. If you take enough of them you can win through attrition and by claiming objectives since they are not objective secured.
-Hive Guard: Have to bank on glancing but being able to shoot out of LoS does come in handy.

NECRONS:

-Necron Warrior Spam: The more Gauss you have the more chances for glances, lots of these to try and glance them to death.
-Necron Flying Circus: They cant hit you while in the air and the Tesla Destructor is not bad for taking down knights if you get on their side or rear.

These are all the lists I have seen BEAT a heavy Imperial Knight list (x3 or more) so I hope this helps some of you and gives you some ideas.

Artillery....
Mek Gunz can take knights, Supa Kannon easily, ZZap guns, Shock Attack gunz....

I never have problems with anti armor and my orks.

 gmaleron wrote:

TYRANIDS:

-Crone Spam: Take a lot of these for the haywire and Vector Strikes, combined with Fly Tyrants they do a pretty decent job.

Crones don't work, they just don't inflict enough HP of damage for their cost.

Flyrants can actually work, if you can get a Flyrant on each flank of a Knight so it has to pick only 1 to guard against, then with TL devourers you can inflict about 2HP on average per turn.

You better hope the Knight player didn't bring anything to deal with Flyrants and you better have brought a lot of them At 230pts each I don't see a TAC army bringing more than 2.

-Gaunt Swarm: Since your Guants are fearless and he cant instant kill your MC's Tarpit them with swarms of fearless Guants. If you take enough of them you can win through attrition and by claiming objectives since they are not objective secured.

Can work, but you need to take heaps, more than would be in most TAC lists. You basically have to flood the board with them.

-Hive Guard: Have to bank on glancing but being able to shoot out of LoS does come in handy.

For the cost of a Knight, you can buy roughly 7 Hive Guard. On average, they do a bit over 1 HP of damage per turn. So it would take a full game of firing to take out a Knight. The being able to shoot without LOS helps, but I think you're pushing your luck thinking you're going to be able hide a unit within 24" but out of LOS for the whole game.

tenebre wrote:
Artillery....
Mek Gunz can take knights, Supa Kannon easily, ZZap guns, Shock Attack gunz....

I never have problems with anti armor and my orks.

My Pask seconds this statement *shakes angry fist*

Add another army to the list.

Adepta Sororitas:
- Repentia Spam. Repentia strike last and die easy, but you only need two to survive until I1 to kill a Knight without problems and they come in squads of ten.
- Dominon Spam. Lots of outflanking meltaguns kill anything dead.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
As for the mention that nids cant take down knights as they need tons of crones for the needed haywire.
So what? just dont kill them.
Nids can literally spawn high number of fearless mooks, just use all them "useless" gaunts (who are useless as they cant kill anything when its all knights) to tie them up, with the synapse MC standing back and not even bothering to enter the fight, and laugh as his entire army is stuck stepping on tiny bugs while you scoup up all the victory points.
If you cant annihilate them-play the mission. knights SUCK at it. just like any deathstar based army.

Have you actually tried this?

It works if you bring a lot of little buggers, I think you'll find many armies don't actually bring the monolithic units required to tie up a Knight for more than 1 or 2 turns. If the Knight decides to charge you, it fires it's double battle cannon shots and stubber shots, a lot of gaunts go splat, that alone could wipe out smaller units and take a chunk out of larger units, it then charges, takes out another 5-10 gaunts, your turn comes around, another 5-10 gaunts drop, by the time it comes to the Knight's turn there's a good chance the Knight is out of combat ready to do it all again. Even a 30 large unit will probably only tie it up for a couple of full game turns (4 combat phases + whatever shooting the Knight got off first).

Yes, those gaunts are cheap, but they only last a turn or 2 against a single Knight so they're a speedbump more than an actual tarpit. If you took TONS of gaunts you could tie them up most of the game and just win by occupying a large amount of the battlefield. But we are talking about a TAC list here.

In a TAC 'nid list, the Knight player just has to look at the start of the game and think "hmmm, what could be a hindrance to me" and just target those things. It could be a unit of Carnifex, so just target them early so they can't do much damage, it could be a swarm of little things, so just drop a few large blasts on them before charging in.

At the end of the day, Tyranids are going to struggle with 1 or 2 Knights and not really have an answer for 3 or 4 or more.

Yeah I have personally tried this tactic against Knight builds and it just doesn't work. Double battle cannons easily eliminates any hope you have of tar pitting them and even if you do manage to hit them with a 30 gaunt brood they can stomp their way through it in a turn or two. In a TAC list I have no more than two broods of 30 so...they aren't going to accomplish that job well.

On top of that, Tyranids have a hard time playing the objective in Maelstrom of War because they are so slow, if I draw an objective in your deployment and one in my deployment I have to split my forces to even attempt to get the two of them. I can ignore one and go for the other but then I am placing all of my faith in the ability to draw more objectives on one side of the table so I can keep grabbing them.

Seriously; Knights aren't the worst thing ever, I agree with that. But don't sit here and try to tell me all the easy ways there are to dealing with them when the advice you are giving is just flat out wrong. MOST armies don't have an issue building a TAC list that can deal with them regularly. At the same time Orks/Tyranids/Daemons are all going to have a hard time dealing with a Knight in a TAC list. Now each of those armies can be built to deal with a Knight, but at the expense of being a TAC list.

As a Tyranids player when I come up against AV14 Spam like Land Raiders it is easier to ignore a Land Raider than deal with it. A LRC is the most threatening thing and for the most part it isn't going to do a great deal of damage to me every turn. A Knight on the other hand is going to be destroying TMCs left and right in melee and removing mid size bugs and swarms with its double battle cannons. What it really boils down to is that the Knight has every tool necessary to deal with Tyranids while at the same time being the one real weakness Tyranids have always had.

I'm not saying I can't handle Knights. I'm just saying I don't like how they shift the meta for TAC lists. And don't enjoy that style of gameplay. When Gargants came onto the scene in Warmahordes, I didn't suddenly start losing regularly, but I did lose a lot of enjoyment of my games.

Knights have a very different role than a Land Raider or two. Even if the firepower needed to kill them is similar, they do very different things.

Nobody said "easy", at any point.
But it was said that its doable, possible, and happens all the time.
Ive seen nids, demons and orks all beat knights, either by taking them on with their own toys, or by playing the avoiding game.

There are tactics, there is sneaky play.
You know he'll beat you up in a fight? dont charge. just stand as close as possible to him (cant use large blasts if you are really tight, as it will aim at himself due to plate size) and wait for him to charge at you, at the very least you delayed him a bit more.
If you have a horde, you probably have a spawner tervigon, he can tie a knight up practically forever like this, just keep sending guys to stand in front of him.
If you are airborn, stay in the air and mess with him.
If you use the endless swarm, throw the ever-returning hordes to be roadblocks.

Its not foolproof, but it can be played around, and you can get a shot at winning even without taking down a single knight. that's where strategy and outplaying comes in. you wont beat them alot, but you'll have a shot when one comes up.

And if these guys are the meta and you face them all the time, maybe its time to consider "subpar" units who are decent counters, like shock hiveguard.
They will hardly ever miss something that big, wont get ID by the blasts (and with cover and shrouding wont even take much damage), and haywire gives decent changes to pull a hull point even through a shield. I bet there are others.

It does sound like your tactics for nids against Knights mostly revolve around the Knight player being a complete noob, taking a force that is not remotely "TAC" or getting very lucky.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just highly improbable unless you've tailored a list to do it and even then your chances are hardly great (compared to most other armies where if they tailor to take on any other army they will almost always dominate).

The reasons my tactics with nids are not great, is that I am not a nid player.
I don't know their ins and outs very well, I know to prioritize shooting targets, "hit and run" shooting moves and deciding long-term deepstrike locations as an enclaves player.

But I've seen nids beat knights, so I know its within the realm of possibility.

Knights are a problem for many players. It is an obvious fact of the game now, that you may run across and entire army of AV13/12 walkers. Whilst you certainly could have made a list that could counter it, most TAC lists simply do not have enough anti armour to bring down more than 1 or 2 of them.

Some armies are inherently weak vs Knights. Daemons and tyrannids are quite hard pressed by them after smash changed for example.

Are Knight armies Cheese as the OP suggests? Not really. To my mind they act more like a rock/paper/scissor list - on steroids.
They may be more competitive than another r/p/s list, like landraider spam, but at the end of the day if the opponent has packed enough meltaguns then the game will normally go against them.

It is also possible to beat them on objectives as a pure knight list will be very few on models.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The reasons my tactics with nids are not great, is that I am not a nid player.
I don't know their ins and outs very well, I know to prioritize shooting targets, "hit and run" shooting moves and deciding long-term deepstrike locations as an enclaves player.

But I've seen nids beat knights, so I know its within the realm of possibility.

I don't doubt it's within their possibility. The only issue I have with Nids, as a Nid player, is the fact that 7th edition made it so it's THAT much harder for us to kill vehicles. Especially Knights, because we can't kill them in melee, and our shooting isn't that great beyond Devourers with Brainleech worms. And you could argue that charging in a full brood of Carnifexes with Crushing Claws would do the trick, they can't possibly kill them all, right? Well, 365 of their points could wipe out Two Carnifexes before they get to strike, and then after that, you might kill one. So it took you roughly 400+ points worth of your vehicle killers to kill one knight, and now whats left will get shot to bits.

Even the Hive Crone is beyond taking, honesty. I would love to own one, but do I want to spend 83 dollars on one? No. Do I want to go buy 3+ of them just to beat Knights, which will still probably win? No. I would rather decline the game in general. Which sucks, but that's what it comes to.

 BoomWolf wrote:
But I've seen nids beat knights, so I know its within the realm of possibility.

I can only imagine it was a bad IK player, an extremely lucky 'nid player with a TAC list, mildly lucky 'nid player with a tailored list or there is some tactic vs Knights I don't know about yet (entirely possible ).

I've only played small games against Knights with my 'nids and mostly knowing it wasn't going to be a pleasant experience


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Even the Hive Crone is beyond taking, honesty. I would love to own one, but do I want to spend 83 dollars on one? No. Do I want to go buy 3+ of them just to beat Knights, which will still probably win? No. I would rather decline the game in general. Which sucks, but that's what it comes to.

Dont worry, the Crones don't really have a chance either Flyrants do have a chance to strip some HP if you can get them on an unshielded side, but IMO that's not enough to win you a game unless you just take an army of nothing but Flyrants and gants.

I really have no idea why Smash was nerfed... even with it, you didn't have a brilliant chance, but it being nerfed is just another punch in the guts.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Even the Hive Crone is beyond taking, honesty. I would love to own one, but do I want to spend 83 dollars on one? No. Do I want to go buy 3+ of them just to beat Knights, which will still probably win? No. I would rather decline the game in general. Which sucks, but that's what it comes to.

Dont worry, the Crones don't really have a chance either Flyrants do have a chance to strip some HP if you can get them on an unshielded side, but IMO that's not enough to win you a game unless you just take an army of nothing but Flyrants and gants.

I really have no idea why Smash was nerfed... even with it, you didn't have a brilliant chance, but it being nerfed is just another punch in the guts.

Well, I can tell you why Smash was nerfed. A. Daemon Princes with Daemon Weapons = Obnoxious. B. A Trygon Prime with upgrades on the charge would have 7 attacks, without Yrmgarl Factor, and 5 attacks if he smashed. Which was the better option?

I'm not saying it doesn't suck, but I can certainly see why they did it. Plus, an army of nothing but Flyrants, that's pretty much half of what Tournament lists are already. >.<

Yeah, but the Trygon Prime also costs 230pts, 5 S10 attacks is hardly awesome for 230pts when you consider 5 Terminators cost 200pts and have 15 S8 attacks on the charge or the 15 S10 attacks of 3 Thunderwolf Cavalry with Hammers or Power fists

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yeah, but the Trygon Prime also costs 230pts, 5 S10 attacks is hardly awesome for 230pts when you consider 5 Terminators cost 200pts and have 15 S8 attacks on the charge or the 15 S10 attacks of 3 Thunderwolf Cavalry with Hammers or Power fists

Well, that's also comparing Tyranids who got boned to the Emperor's Finest, who get everything they want. So, yeah. Nonetheless, I've had good times with the Trygon, even though he costs 300+ points.

Bharring wrote:
If its anything like Gargants in Warmahordes, it means any traditional TAC list is outdated.

My TAC lists in 40k usually has enough anti tank, but if I play against a Knight-heavy list, most of my list can't do anything. Not even slow them down. Land raiders are tanks, and thus even spammed have ways for most of my TAC lists to handle them. Knights are a whole different beast. And av13 sometimes 4+ 6hp superheavies are very hard to stop. A pen can't take down a weapon. An explodes won't take it out. You can't immobilize it and move out of the firing arc. You can't slow it down with terrain. It doesn't have any reason to only move 6". It can charge, and can fight back hard in melee.

If I face one, my tac lists should be able to handle it. A lot of the ways to tale one down involve piece trades, though, so if there is a second, I'm in trouble. A third, and why did most of my army even show up?

Gargants in Warmahordes was one of the reasons I left the game. I want more tactical options than list-roulette. There are a few tactical options when facing Knights, but for the most part they just ignore most tactics and still punch your face in.

They're basically Wave Serpents without the Serpents few weaknesses.

You are disillusioned if you think colossal and gargantuan are ''dominating'' the meta in warmahordes.

The Stormwall is the best of the bunch, but yet Cygnar isn't winning the majority of tournaments even though most cygnarian players take it in at least one list.

1-2 loaded up heavies will demolish a colossal. They are strong, but not as strong as multiple heavy jacks or beasts. They are just another option. Some factions colosals/gargs are seen as unplayable even.

You are equally disillusioned is you think superheavies and gargaunts are dominating the 40k meta.

And how do you counter flyer builds with most armies. IG have no anti air units worth taking in a tac list

did you really just say that? the IG has 2 fliers and a "flak gun" the only army with BETTER anti-air is space Marines!

the flakk gun sucks hard and doesn't fit in to any army and to do AA you would need to run 3 vendettas ,which IG did before it got hicked up in price.

Marines have "better" AA because it is either cheaper or immune to melta or they can ignore flyers due to t4 or t5 and +3sv or better save.


BoomWolf anyone who played against a ctan shards knows there is something wrong with them.

2 fully loaded Ironclads can't reliably drop a colossal. But, anyways, thats not the point. Beating collosals wasn't the problem. Having fun while facing them is. And the secondary damage of what it did to the meta.

Winning isn't everything.

Makumba wrote:

BoomWolf anyone who played against a ctan shards knows there is something wrong with them.

The C'tan are a localized problem, not a problem with the LoW as a whole. just like annibarges do not make HS as a whole overpowered, and WS do not make transports as a whole overpowered.

 Sarigar wrote:
I've had to tweak my Eldar slightly b/c of IK showing up in higher numbers. A lot will also vary based on playing a one off game or in a tourney. Roughly, some changes as follows:

2 x 3 War Walkers (one off game: 6 Brightlances/ tourney 3 Scatterlaser, 3 Brightlances)
1 x 3 Hornets with Pulse Lasers (outflanks for side and rear armor)
1 x 1 Wraithknight (2 x S10 shots and assault capability)

I've not faced 5 yet. The most have been 3 in a single game at 1850 points. There are some other reasonable options: Swooping Hawks, Wraithguard, Warp Spiders and hitting rear armor, D-Cannons, Fire Dragons, Wave Serpents lending support to strip a couple of Hull Points.

Im really loving fire dragosn for this. You are almost always able to get around the shield via battle focus, and then light em up with all the melta shots.

I kinda wish Imperial Knights were never introduced to the game. They break the already sad balance of the game, and are just plain overpowered ( when wielded in numbers. ) They also force players to tailor their lists so they can deal with multiple Knights, for they render any non-antitank options useless.

I don´t know how many people here have actually tried tying up a Knight instead of just talking about it. It´s easier said than done. Personally I´ve started using my ( singular ) Knight less and less... because I feel like I´m winning with a unit choice, not with skill when I use him.

I still can´t fathom how GW just can´t manage balance in their game... seems smaller companies are doing thrice a better job at it.