Bronzefists42 wrote:
Okay completely serious question.

Do we really need GW at this point? FW has found its niche and market, and they do it damn well.

 LutherMax wrote:
GW couldn't get away with the flash, warping, un-filled mould issues FW get away with (they tried and failed with Finecast), hence why we see character models in more expensive but more reliable plastic these days.

 Peregrine wrote:

 LutherMax wrote:
GW couldn't get away with the flash, warping, un-filled mould issues FW get away with (they tried and failed with Finecast), hence why we see character models in more expensive but more reliable plastic these days.

To be fair, finecast was much worse than anything FW has produced. With a FW model you have some cleanup work to do and sometimes have to ask for a replacement part, but you get a nice model in the end. With finecast you have a 95% chance of throwing the model in the garbage, asking for a refund, and never making the mistake of buying finecast again. If GW could have managed even FW-level quality in their resin casting we'd probably still have resin characters.

 Yak9UT wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Okay completely serious question.

Do we really need GW at this point? FW has found its niche and market, and they do it damn well.

No, I stopped buying models from GW years ago.

FW ironically cost about the same as GW models here in Austraila so why bother going for normal models when I can get much better ones from FW.

The only thing I still buy from GW is paint and rule books otherwise I buy FW.

 Peregrine wrote:

 LutherMax wrote:
GW couldn't get away with the flash, warping, un-filled mould issues FW get away with (they tried and failed with Finecast), hence why we see character models in more expensive but more reliable plastic these days.

To be fair, finecast was much worse than anything FW has produced. With a FW model you have some cleanup work to do and sometimes have to ask for a replacement part, but you get a nice model in the end. With finecast you have a 95% chance of throwing the model in the garbage, asking for a refund, and never making the mistake of buying finecast again. If GW could have managed even FW-level quality in their resin casting we'd probably still have resin characters.

 LutherMax wrote:
I wonder if FW sales will ever warrant an investment in plastic injection moulding... An interesting thought!

 Peregrine wrote:

 LutherMax wrote:
I wonder if FW sales will ever warrant an investment in plastic injection moulding... An interesting thought!

(at least without having way too many parts to be a viable kit)

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I always find it interesting that people separate GW an FW as if they were two different companies. They're one and the same, they are even in the same building. It's actually quite clever marketing if you think about it, and in my opinion one of the main reasons why they still keep FW on a separate site. It allows GW to still sell products to all of those people who have become disaffected with their business practices. Saying "I don't buy GW anymore I only buy FW" is the same as saying "I don't buy GW anymore I only buy GW".

 LutherMax wrote:
Have Forge World always been part of GW or were they acquired as a once separate company?

 LutherMax wrote:
Have Forge World always been part of GW or were they acquired as a once separate company?

Chaos Astartes Battle Tanks
Chaos Predator Battle Tank
Chaos Infernal Relic Battle Tank (all the Heresy versions. Autocannon on that is AP3...)
Chaos Vindicator Siege Tank
Chaos Relican Sicaran Battle Tank

Chaos Astartes Assault Vehicles
Chaos Land Raider
Chaos Land Raider Proteus
Chaos Infernal Relic Land Raider Achilles (oh, and for every HP knocked off that? Bigdakkafourboom gains +1S, lowers the AP by 1 (unit entry oddly worded, but example given on Pp195), and adds -1 to enemy Pinning Tests, on top of it's base -1 for Shellshock. Example mentioned? 2 HP lost makes it S7, AP3, Pinning tests at -3...
Chaos Rhino Armoured Troop Carrier

Chaos Astartes Heavy Tanks
Chaos Fellblade Super-heavy Tank
Chaos Typhon Heavy Siege Tank
Chaos Spartan Assault Tank

Chaos Astartes Attack Craft
Chaos Fire Raptor Gunship
Chaos Thunderhawk Gunsip
Chaos Hellblade (Autocannon can be upgraded to Heavy 3, Rending which I think is new? Oh, and at the start of play, you can nominate a Flyer or Flying Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Flappy Nasty, including those in reserve. When making AP rolls or To Wound against the chosen model, 1's can be re-rolled. Which is pretty *****ing if you ask me)
Chaos Hell Talon (Again, Autocannon can be souped up)
Chaos Dreadclaw Drop Pod (does what it does. Has Assault Vehicle, and Frag Launchers. And does burninating when zipping about)
Chaos Kharybdis Assault Cloaw (biggerer version of the Dreadclaw)

Chaos Dreadnoughts & Helbrutes
Ferrum Infernus Chaos Dreadnought (Daemon Prince waiting to happen, for 25 points)
Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought (Warp Amp doubles the shots of it's Sonic weapons if it remains stationary in a turn, and can give all sonic weapons Rending at the price of Gets Hot!)
Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought

Daemon Engines
The Machine Daemonica (fluff stuff, but reading through the contents as printed to avoid missing gubbins off)
Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne
Blood Slaughterer of Khorne
Chaos Rapier Weapons Carrier
Chaos Decimator
Blight Drones
Plague Hulk of Nurgle

Chaos Titans
Chaos Reaver Battle Titan
Chaos Warhound Titan

Renegades and Heretics
Full army list and that.

Appendices
Appendix I - Legacies of Ruin ( I assume the Rites of War equivalent, but see below *)
Appendix II - Special Rules
- Vehicle Summary
- Weapons Summary
Appendix III: Lords of the Abyss (honking geet Daemons

There, that's what's in it.

*I'm not presently up to date on my IA collection, so sadly I can't say if something has been nerfed, buffed, zerged, zomg'd, buggered, petted, polished or pooped on. All I can give is the rule, and my opinion on it based on what is in front of me. Nor can I go comparing across Loyalist stuff, except using HH Vol 1, which may not be a fair comparison, as I don't have the Loyalist books for a three way (oooer!) comparison.

Pick of the book for me, based on what I've read so far.....

Hell Talon and Hell Blade. Not only am I a sucker for Flyers, not only are they really nice models, but they have an X-Wing style Barrel Roll in the shape of 'Baleful Aberration'....

Quote Originally Posted by IA 13, Baleful Aberration Rule
Tainted by the vile rites performed during it's creation, this vehicle is a wound in the fabric of reality and it's presence is accompanied by visual and auditory hallucinations, as well as atmospheric disturbances, darkening the very skies as it passes. A vehicle with this special rule gains a 5+ Invulnerable Save and during the Movement Phase, before the vehicle is moved, it may be repositioned D6+2" in any direction (but may not change it's current facing, or be repositioned over another model or its base

Ace rule - though a bit concerned by the lack of 'up to' on the D6+2"....

Legacies of Ruin anyone? I shan't post points in line with posting rules. I don't want anyone to get into troub (especially me)

Veteran of the Scouring
Any Tank or Super Heavy (sep costs) - It Will Not Die, and Preferred Enemy (Space Marines). Can be taken by a CSM Walker or Super-heavy Walker - It Will Not Die, Hatred (SM)

War within the Eye
Tank and Supes (sep costs) - Adamantium Will, Preferred Enemy (CSM). Walker or Supe Walker - Adamantium Will, Hated (CSM)

Maelstrom Rider (I likes this one!)
Vehicle or Supes - Outflank and Fear

Death of Kasyr Lutien
Vehicle or Supes - Fear, and any friendly Malific powers cast within 12" can re-roll one D6 for each remaining Hull Point

Blood of Mackan
Tank or Supes - Preferred Enemy (Blood Angels), Defence Lines and Barricades do not count as Dangerous Terrain. If fitted with Destroyer Blades, when Tank Shocking, and after Death or Glorying, gains AP equal to it's remaining Hull Points (in excess of 6 being - instead)

Siege of Vraks
Vehicle or Supes - Ignores Dangerous Terrain damage on a 4+, and re=roll failed To Hits against targets located in Defence Lines

Fourth Quadrant Rebellion
Vehicles and Supes - Friendly units of Cultists within 12" are Fearless, and when down to it's last Hull Point, gets a 4+ Invulnerable

Badab Uprising
Tank and Supes - Fear and Preferred Enemy (SM). Walkers and Supe Walkers - Rage and Hatred (CSM)

Scourge of the Greenskins
Tanks only - extra D6" when Tank Shocking, and Preferred Enemy (Orks)

Last of the Forge
Vehicle with Transport Capacity only - Stunned and Shaken ignored on a 4+ (hull points lost as normal), Preferred Enemy (Tyranids), and transported unit gains Hatred (Tyranids)....*cough Kharybdis cough*

Screams of Lugganath
Vehicle or Supes - When attacked by Eldar, has Fear, and if equipped with a Dirge Caster, increases the range of it by 12"

Perdus Rift Anamoly
Vehicles and Supes - If deployed (as in, on the board, not held in reserves) at the beginning of the game, you can re-roll to seize the initiative, Preferred Enemy (Tau)

1st War for Armageddon
Vehicle or Supes - Daemonic Saves made within 6" improve by 1, to a max of 2+, and has Fear when attacked by Astra Militarum Forces

(almost there! Stay on target!)

Vessel of Akashneth of the Boiling Brass
Vehicle or Supes - Fear, and friendly units with an Icon of Wrath within 12" count as having inflicted an additional D3 wounds for the purposes of working out who wins an assault, (also counts as Daemonic Possession as per CSM book)

Vessel of Shyak The Seeker
Vehicle or Supes - Fear, enemy units within 12" of an Icon of Excess roll an additional D6 and discard the lowest on ANY Leadership based test (emphasis mine) (also counts as Daemonic Possession as per CSM book)

Vessel of Dhornurgh The Reborn
Vehicles and Supes - Fear, all friendly units within 6" with the Icon of Despair have the Gets Hot! and Rending special rules in HTH (also counts as Daemonic Possession as per CSM book)

Vessel of Tzenahk the Occluder
Vehicle and Supes - Fear. At the beginning of the game, roll a D6... 1. If this vehicle is destroyed, opponent bags an extra VP. 2-6. If it survives, you get an additional D3 VPs. (also counts as Daemonic Possession as per CSM book)

Auloth the Primordial Iterator
Vehicle and Supes - Fear, all weapons gain Pinning. All friendly units within 12" have the Fear and FnP special rules (also counts as Daemonic Possession as per CSM book)

Renegade IG rules and wargear;


LOTS of special rules.....

Vox-Caster

Command Net Vox

Sub-flak Armour (6+ sv)

Chaos Sigil (ignore first failed Morale or Pinning test each game turn

Combat Drug Injectors - activate on charge. gains Rage, but T test at end of combat or remove D3 models, no saves at all at all.

Banner of Hate - All infantry from same Primary detachment with one or more models (Clarity!) within 12" roll 3D6 for Pinning and Morale, discarding the lowest

Banner of the Apostate - +1 to combat score, not cumulative with each other

Army Special Rules

Uncertain Worth - Random Ld - D6+4, roll when it's first used (sticks for the rest of the game, usual modifiers apply)

Curse of Mutation - before deployment, D6. 1-2, Fear and all friendly units without Curse of Mutation rule -1 Ld when within 6". 3-4, Unnatural Sense. Acute Senses and Scout, but count all Blast, Barrage and Heavy Weapons as having the Blind Special Rule. 5-6, Horns, Claws and Fangs. Hammer of Wrath, HoW +1 S, but must always declare a charge in any friendly assault phase when enemy are within 12". If multiple qualifying units, you get to choose who you declare the charge against.

Chaos Covenant (hold onto your pants, and grab the Kleenex....)
Renegades and Heretics with this may select one of the following.
Khorne - Any unit with at least one model with this re-roll ALL failed to wound in the first round of any Close Combat
Nurgle - As above, but FnP 6+
Slaanesh - As above, Fleet
Tzeentch - As above, but BS2(!) Snap Shots......

Fanatic
When determining Ld for Uncertain Worth, roll an additional D6 and ditch the lowest.

Aura of the Witch
Unit must be modelled with a pointy hat, a Parsnip nose, and a Wart. Gains 5+ Invulnerable save, and Fear, but cannot join another unit, or be the Warlord. Part of this listing is untrue. Can you spots it?

Right...Demagogue Devotions. A single Demagogue in any one Command Squad (so just the one devotion then!) can have one of the follow upgrades.

Primaris-rogue Witch. Lvl 1 Psyker, Upgradeable to Lvl 2, opens up Malefic, Biomancy, Pyromancy, Telekinesis. Cannot then take Covenant of Khorne, BT, Rogue Psyker Covens become Elites as well as HQ (Witches, Witches as far as the eye can see!)

Mutant Overlord
Roll three times on the following table, and both the dude and his squad get the Curse of Mutation rule.... 1 - Reduce I or A of model by -1, re-roll additionals of this result. 2 -3. +1 to WS or BS, 4-5 +1 to S or T, 6 - +1 W, gains Slow and Purposeful and Bulky - re-roll additional results. Must take at least TWO Mutant Rabble units, and may select a single unit of Renegade Chaos Spawn as a non-Compulsory Troops choice, allows Ogryn Brutes to purchase Curse of Mutation for +15 points.

Master of the Horde
When an individual Renegade Infantry Squad bought as part of the same army as this dude, and numbering 15+ at the start of game, when wiped out, recycle on a 5+. Identical bar Ded Trans. Must take at least TWO Renegade Infantry Platoons, but squad size of those goes up to 30....

Arch-Heretic Revolutionary
ains Zealot, and can take a Covenant of Chaos for no additional cost. Renegade Infantry and Renegade Veterans can have Fanatic for fixed points per unit, and Enforcer Cadres can include up to 10, instead of 5 Enforcers

Heretek Magus
3+ Sv, T+1, FnP 6+. Can now take Defilers as HS, and Decimators as Elite. And the following units get FnP 6+ for a very modest cost.... Command Squads, Infantry Platoons, Veteran Squads, Disciple Squads, Heavy Ordnance Batteries, Support Squads, Rapier Laser Destroyer Batteries, Field Artillery Batteries

Bloody-handed Reaver
Refractor Field and Krak Grenades, can replace pistol with hot-shot las pistol or hot shot las gun. Infantry Veterans can upgrade to Renegade Grenadiers for modest points. BS+1, all pistol replace with hot-shot Lasguns or Hot-shot Pistols. For every 5 models, Grenadiers can replace a hot-shot Lasgun for a Hot-shot Volley Gun, again for modest points. Militia Training can be purchased for the following units, giving them proper, 5+ Flak - Infantry Platoons, Mutant Rabble, Heavy Ordnance Batteries, Support Squads, Laser Destroyer Batteries, Field Artillery Batteries.

WARLORD TRAITS!

1. Fanatical Convert - When a unit with Uncertain Worth is destroyed within 12" of this model, roll a D6 - on a 5+, you get a VP too (sorry what????)
2. Iron-Fisted Tyrant - At the start of your turn, you can remove D3 models from the Warlords unit from play, and a single fleeing friendly unit with Uncertain Worth may immediately regroup (anything but a 2 you say?
3. Prophet of Doom - Beginning of any turn, including your opponents, pick a Reserve roll. You can make it a 2+ for success, or 6+ for success, regardless of current turn or any other modifiers (now imagining a Lictor being doused in Febreze)
4. Arisan of Death - If engage in HTH during its I step, but not in base to base with an enemy model, you can forfeit all his attacks to inflict on S3, AP2, Poison 4+ on any enemy model (mmm, snipey!) within 3"....including models in a challenge
5. Blasphemous Iconoclast - Once per turn, during your shooting phase, nominate a friendly unit within 12" - It rolls an additional D6 when rolling on the Building Damage table, using the highest (erm....kinda useful. Sometimes. But I guess when it is, it really is?)
6. Soul-scarred Terror. At I1 step of any Fight sub-phase, roll a D6 for each enemy model in btb with this Warlord. On a 6, they take an automatic wound. He also causes Fear (not bad. Still want a 1 though. 1 is ace!)

Fave Units Part Twooooooo!

Ferrum Infernus Dreadnought.

It's a Venerable Dread type, without the BLARG GRIBBLE NO BINKY THEY'RE ON OUR SIDE! table. Instead, it has a choice of three upgrades.

1 is Host of Daemonic Icon - Gains Daemonic Resilience (need to look that up), and any Hull Point lost in HTH causes a S4 AP3 on the offending unit - MEH!

Destroyer of Cities - Gets the Assault Drill (fun!) and Flamespurt Cannon(?), +1 front AV, and has Move Through Cover, and in Cities of Death gets Wrecker.

But the besterest?

Lord of the Long War. I'll skip the flavour text for now....but...if it's destroyed by an EXPLODES result? Roll a D6.
1-2 Replace it with a Chaos Spawn
3-4 Re-roll the damage dice. Needs a second ASPLODE result to do so, otherwise apply the re-roll result
5-6 DEAR GODS. IT'S ONLY GONE AND HATCHED INTO A SODDING GREAT DAEMON PRINCE! (as per Dark Apotheosis result on Boon table).
And he can fight in challenges (no, I bloody well would not like to accept that. I'm taking my power fist and going home. Sod the lot of you...hold on, I'm sure I had legs a second ago).

Loads of the usual toys for it to pick as well. And can have Malefic Ammo, which in this case grants all Heavy Bolters or Autocannon carried Rending. Wee bit pricey though...

Dreadclaws are CSM Squads, Chosen, Ferrum Infernus, Sonic Dread, Helbrutes - Dedicated Transport (and it's an Assault Vehicle, but no Assault from Deep Strike still).

Also a Fast Attack choice.

Same cost as a Nightscythe.



And now for something slightly different.

As I headed off into the land of nod last night, I was reading some of the background in the book. Sporadic and spotty page hopping was done.

Timeline is pretty extensive, and usual Forgeworld quality. Particular giggle was a reference to Metamarines...

But, most importantly? We have absolute, 100% confirmation that there are Daemon Engine Knights. Two page Inquisitorial letter 'The Machina Daemonica' mentions, right at the end sez...

Quote Originally Posted by Inquisitor Verily Wroth sez
The class (referring to Manifest or Incarnate Daemon Engines) may also include those engines that appear to be debased mockeries of our own glorious and noble Knights; the Hell Knight, Questor, Subdjugtor, Hell Scourge and Hell Strider. My studies on this matter remain inclusive (sic) and incomplete, and my agents have made contact with our allies, the Relictors, so that the matter be addressed more thoroughly
Now, combine with my chinwag with Darren Parwood (lovely bloke!) and we may have something approaching a rumour....

IA 13, Pp 89, Drop Pod Assault
A Chaos Dreadclaw, and any unit it transports, must always be held in reserve and always enters play using the Deep Strike rules, and counts as a Drop Pod for the wider use of the Drop Pod Assault rule for the army (eg, if a Kharybdis Assault Claw is also taken). At the beginning of the controlling player's first turn, they must choose half of their Drop Pod units (rounding up) to make a Drop Pod Assault., These units arrive on their controlling player's first player turn. The arrival of the remaining Drop Pods in the player's force is rolled for as usual for the mission. A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod may not assault in the turn it arrives. In the case of the Chaos Dreadclaw, unlike other Drop Pods, it is not immobile. However, after it has landed, it is treated as a Flyer with Hover mode (which starts off as hovering after it has arrived via Deep Strike)

 ArbitorIan wrote:

bubber wrote:Argh - random Ld. The one thing I really hated about the Vraks lists.
Going to my corner to sulk now. :(

To be fair, there are a few ways to get around it. A Chaos Icon in the unit allows you to ignore the first failed Ld check each turn, and characters have Fanatic, which allows them to re-roll the random Ld roll. In addition, you have Enforcers, who are also random Ld, and then add 1 to the highest Ld in the squad.

 LutherMax wrote:
Have Forge World always been part of GW or were they acquired as a once separate company?

 Peregrine wrote:

 LutherMax wrote:
GW couldn't get away with the flash, warping, un-filled mould issues FW get away with (they tried and failed with Finecast), hence why we see character models in more expensive but more reliable plastic these days.

To be fair, finecast was much worse than anything FW has produced. With a FW model you have some cleanup work to do and sometimes have to ask for a replacement part, but you get a nice model in the end. With finecast you have a 95% chance of throwing the model in the garbage, asking for a refund, and never making the mistake of buying finecast again. If GW could have managed even FW-level quality in their resin casting we'd probably still have resin characters.

 warboss wrote:
I've gotten some real stinkers from FW including Icons where the flash was almost as thick as the actual "model" itself. There is no way something like this (not my pic but my GK item was almost exactly the same) should ever pass QA.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
When they enter play, they do it via DS and they hover when they do, the turn after they can move.

While they hover the turn they get on the table you can still zoom with it, because the dreadclaw isn't immobile and zooming is in the shoothing phase so...

 Peregrine wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I've gotten some real stinkers from FW including Icons where the flash was almost as thick as the actual "model" itself. There is no way something like this (not my pic but my GK item was almost exactly the same) should ever pass QA.

That isn't flash, it's a deliberate choice to put a sheet of resin behind the icons. Those are very thin parts and they probably had too many problems with casting and shipping damage without it.

 LutherMax wrote:
Here's some pics I took at Warhammer Fest today. More on my blog.