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winterdyne wrote: He paid around $8,000. A suitable high end tabletop finish (with me) would have run way north of $12,000 and actually pushing to display / competition quality would have run it to closer to $18,000.
You need to do one or more of the following:
Go back and read the list of models again - I stressed at the time that it was an ENORMOUS job. I seem to remember estimating it at around a year's turnaround, with at least several months of corrective measures to try and fix up from the standard supplied.
Check more reputable painters (Matt Fontaine, myself, Tommie Soule, Den of Imagination etc) for display quality rates on something like the Llamasu. BTP charged $250, which is low end of the ball park for high end tabletop. On that particular model, yes, Tenebre got burned as it wasn't even completed properly.
I would'nt even paint it to 'tabletop' for that (but my tabletop is most people's display). To actually do a competitive (as in painting competition) job on it would be closer to $750 or more. I'd be upset doing this sort of work and NOT getting a GD finalist.
Seriously up your idea of 'display quality'. By this I mean GD finalist squad sort of level.
BTP does NOT charge the equivalent for display quality.
So, $8K for sections of unpainted model is ok in your book? Wow, I'm suddenly glad I never pay anyone to paint my stuff.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
Absolutionis wrote: It doesn't matter how much money he paid. He had a Forge World army that he gathered together from many different places. The models alone are expensive, and he paid quite a sum for those. Cost didn't seem like it was his primary concern.
He paid for what he assumed was quality. Also, from the videos, he wasn't the most frequent patron of commission painters. He went for the company he thought was reliable and well-advertised and didn't get the quality. I'm sure that if BTP didn't exist, he would have been fine with paying more to another company for the quality that he expected. Should I be happy if a painting studio takes the low-low price of $1 per army to just literally dunk my stuff into paint? No.
All the people mentioning that the quality matches the price are missing the point. When someone commissions a project, they pay for what they assume is an advertised level of quality. BTP's nebulous levels of quality seem to change, and people get burned.
This is true for most models he was SOLD a higher-than-normal tabletop finish, with some being display level (I am attempting to interpret BTP's bizarre numeric grading). It's like going to a car lot and being promised a Ferrari for the price of a Ford. Under any form of contract, you should expect the Ferrari, but you really shouldn't be surprised if it comes with the engine totally thrashed. However, art being the subjective thing it is, it's very hard to nail down what all these nebulous standards mean.
I've no idea how BTP managed to display an image of being able to achieve higher end finishes- sure they churn out a lot of cheap projects (and there's a definite niche in the market for that), but I honestly still can't figure out how after looking through the pictures available for any length of time you could think that they're currently doing higher finish work.
I just do two standards - 'tabletop' (lovely wide field that one, but not for me) and 'competition'. One I'd game with, one I damn well wouldn't. That my Tabletop costs three or four times other peoples, gets photographed at major competitions, sometimes wins a little something is beside the point. I put it on a table and play games with my chums. In my own way my standards are just as warped as BTP's because I'm driven as much by the product and process than the bottom line. However by the time I take any money from my clients, they know what they're gonna get, and I pretty much know what they want. The key to that is a lot (and I do mean a lot) of communication beyond the initial 'it'll be about $15,000 all in' that Tenebre would have gotten from me.
I'm not trying to let BTP 'off the hook' so to speak, if you're presenting a sale (of service) to achieve a certain result, be damn certain you can achieve it. And I very much do join the choir when BTP or painters of their ilk try to present as something they're not - a good example being their 'display' work. They've not been able to do any for a long, long while. Going back to the car lot analogy, it'd be like looking around after being promised that Ferrari and y'know, not seeing one - just a sale board in the corner indicating they may have sold one in the past.
In my opinion (and I think over several years of commission painting it's got a wee bit of experience behind it) I reckon $8k should have got a nice, neat, basic looking army. Nothing fancy, but good, neat work (flat colours, neatly applied, maybe a wash and drybrush or quick edge highlight here and there). He got something trying and failing to be 'arty', which for the most part looked OK at an arms length. If you squint. And have maybe had a bit to drink. It wasn't anywhere near enough to achieve a significantly better result than that on the volume of miniatures involved.
So artistic fails aside, I reckon he got close to what he paid for - IIRC most models were charged at about $6 (so way less than a half hour of time). I did actually get sent the quote by Tenebre for the sake of interest, but I can't find it right now. In any case, it's not my place to divulge its contents in detail. I'd have been more vocal about it if the work done had been simple and neat (y'know, professional) rather than some attempt at off-spec arty interpretation.
The lack of communication led to huge problems as the artist went way, way off-spec with the project, not to mention some of the most half-assed attempts at OSL I've ever had the misfortune to not be able to unsee.
I'm also fairly sure that multiple artists were involved on Tenebre's job - I mentioned earlier how this can make things go tits up really easily.
In the Chaos Wastes, Killing the Chaos scum of the north
To the person saying Winterdyne is a puppet...are you serious?
I think the points people are saying are:
Ten payed for BTP's High end level and got crud, but winterdyne is saying that BTP's High end level is cheaper then His and other great painters tabletop level work,so he payed the price for what he got.
He payed cheap (relatively) and got crud, but the problem was he was promised high-end and got crud
So, $8K for sections of unpainted model is ok in your book? Wow, I'm suddenly glad I never pay anyone to paint my stuff.
Not if it's noticeable. Bare plastic is a definite no. Visible primer is a great trick if you use coloured primers:
I use army painter religiously so I know what you're talking about there.
BTW, you're the only person I've ever seen make those crappy Mantic trolls look decent. As for Ten's issue, they could have at least thrown a wash on the skulls; hell, I'm as crappy and lazy a painter as there is and I do that much with my models.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
I think Ten mentioned that he paid what was asked for the best level that BTP claimed that they could supply. It was not really about the price of the project.
It was more of Ten wanted a display quality work, a specific color scheme, and was willing to pay to have that happen. He was told the project would be done to his specifications and given a time frame when it would be done. It simply did not work out for what ever reasons.
I think the majority of models were spec'd at tabletop+ sort of level (4 I think) with a few thrown in at 5 and 6. Certainly the larger centrepieces were supposed to be significantly better jobs. Instead what came out was fairly homogenous in terms of finish.
This probably isn't the thread to dig up this old discussion again, so it's probably best to leave the discussion with noting that BTP certainly didn't follow some rather basic tenets of providing a decent service.
Going back to whether they're a viable going concern, I certainly wouldn't value them at $400k. I think there's too much damage both to reputation and organisation to repair; any buyer wanting to operate more professionally would most likely have to rebuild a lot of the business from scratch.
How is he selling fraudulent goods? And if he offers to fix any errors for free, why should anyone be labeling him a fraudster?
It implies that you are a puppet or a shill, which may or may not be true. You are definitely White Knighting in error.
BTP clearly failed to deliver on any of the things that they promised: timeliness, quality, effects, scheme, etc. They took money for that. In any courtroom, that is fraud, plain and simple.
You claim to be 'Grey' on the topic, yet your convictions seem to be quite the opposite. You say I am in the pockets of BTP. You say I am definitely in error. You say BTP clearly failed. You say everything is plain and simple. I respect all of your opinions, it's all cool. But you don't seem to want to give me the same respect for. Ok, dude. OK.
How is he selling fraudulent goods? And if he offers to fix any errors for free, why should anyone be labeling him a fraudster?
It implies that you are a puppet or a shill, which may or may not be true. You are definitely White Knighting in error.
BTP clearly failed to deliver on any of the things that they promised: timeliness, quality, effects, scheme, etc. They took money for that. In any courtroom, that is fraud, plain and simple.
You claim to be 'Grey' on the topic, yet your convictions seem to be quite the opposite.
You say I am in the pockets of BTP.
You say I am definitely in error. You say BTP clearly failed. You say everything is plain and simple. I respect all of your opinions, it's all cool.
But you don't seem to want to give me the same respect for. Ok, dude. OK.
I never claimed to be neutral toward BTP. Ever since they tried to claim "dipping" as a proprietary technique, I have been hoping that BTP would go out of business, bankrupt and destitute. Regarding Blue Table Painting, I have been an Obsidian Knight for years, long before ten got ripped off by them.
You asked a question as to the implication, and I gave you a straight answer as to how I understood the intent of the other poster's post.
Based on the video that ten posted (and took down as part of his "hush money" settlement), it's pretty clear. If you disagree, that's your right; however, if BTP was in the right, ten wouldn't have sued, and BTP wouldn't have paid hush money to settle.
I apologize if you think I do not respect you - that was not my intent, and I'm sorry about that. Peace.
Apparently work has picked up at BTP. Multiple orders have come in and the staff have more hours they can work. Meaning projects are progressing, staff are getting paid, moral is improving.
Kind of off topic, but its been mentioned enough I feel I should chime in. As some one who works/worked at BTP, the whole Tenebre incident was a massive facepalm for almost every one working there, completely abnormal.Now that its resolved I feel I can comment on it. I actually assembled that project, did the conversions, etc.
-I was never informed the client didn't like my work, nor was I given the opportunity to make corrections. I want clients to be happy with my work, I would have gladly taken the time to fix it and make new conversions. If you have ever had some one judge your artistic work harshly, I assume you would feel the same way and want to make changes.
-The original painter it was given to used to be trusted to do the work Tenebre was quoted for. This painter did a terrible prime job, and let the models sit and collect dust, after several weeks, he dumped the bin off at the studio saying he didn't have time to do it. This painter was then fired.
-As far as I know, Tenebre was getting a bit impatient on the progress of the project and kept emailing and calling about progress. It had been about four weeks without an update.
-When BTP takes a project. Clients pay around 50% upfront, the rest upon completion. So Tenebres project had a large pay out upon completion. So money was a motivation for getting the project out sooner (its a business, money is always a motivation. that's not an excuse for what took place though)
-Shawn distributed the project to the new painters, with instructions to get it done quickly (these painters had produced good work, but hadn't worked there long). As soon as the painters brought the work in, Shawn glanced over it, sent pictures to the client. A few changes were made, then it was boxed and shipped.
-The project had never gone through the person in charge of quality control. He was unaware the project had even changed painters and was then shipped.
-Shawn did not do the original quote for the project. So (I believe) he was not completely informed as to the details of the email conversations for the quote. This lead to some of the strange offers Shawn made (I think he though BTP had ordered the models, instead of the client sending them in. So getting the entire army back as part of a full refund is not abnormal, *IF* we provided the models).
This whole incident was abnormal and not common. Dozens of projects are shipped every month without incident.
A client ordered project will always be worth more money then a lump sum of custom painted miniatures. As the original client is willing to pay more for the custom work for the army they want. We hate having an army returned. We would have the client like/love the work we have done and get further orders, rather then have to make a huge refund and then try to sell the army for a portion of the original quote.
So many edits... bah its early. Either way,hope this clears things up and no one burns me at the stake for it.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/03/18 15:53:30
"Accept that Tzeentch has a place for all of us in his grand scheme, and be happy in the part you have to play." "This is Chaos. We don't "ka-frickin'-boom" here."
Igenstilch wrote: Apparently work has picked up at BTP. Multiple orders have come in and the staff have more hours they can work. Meaning projects are progressing, staff are getting paid, moral is improving.
Kind of off topic, but its been mentioned enough I feel I should chime in. As some one who works/worked at BTP, the whole Tenebre incident was a massive facepalm for almost every one working there, completely abnormal.Now that its resolved I feel I can comment on it. I actually assembled that project, did the conversions, etc.
-I was never informed the client didn't like my work, nor was I given the opportunity to make corrections. I want clients to be happy with my work, I would have gladly taken the time to fix it and make new conversions. If you have ever had some one judge your artistic work harshly, I assume you would feel the same way and want to make changes.
-The original painter it was given to used to be trusted to do the work Tenebre was quoted for. This painter did a terrible prime job, and let the models sit and collect dust, after several weeks, he dumped the bin off at the studio saying he didn't have time to do it. This painter was then fired.
-As far as I know, Tenebre was getting a bit impatient on the progress of the project and kept emailing and calling about progress. It had been about four weeks without an update.
-When BTP takes a project. Clients pay around 50% upfront, the rest upon completion. So Tenebres project had a large pay out upon completion. So money was a motivation for getting the project out sooner (its a business, money is always a motivation. that's not an excuse for what took place though)
-Shawn distributed the project to the new painters, with instructions to get it done quickly (these painters had produced good work, but hadn't worked there long). As soon as the painters brought the work in, Shawn glanced over it, sent pictures to the client. A few changes were made, then it was boxed and shipped.
-The project had never gone through the person in charge of quality control. He was unaware the project had even changed painters and was then shipped.
-Shawn did not do the original quote for the project. So (I believe) he was not completely informed as to the details of the email conversations for the quote. This lead to some of the strange offers Shawn made (I think he though BTP had ordered the models, instead of the client sending them in. So getting the entire army back as part of a full refund is not abnormal, *IF* we provided the models).
This whole incident was abnormal and not common. Dozens of projects are shipped every month without incident.
A client ordered project will always be worth more money then a lump sum of custom painted miniatures. As the original client is willing to pay more for the custom work for the army they want. We hate having an army returned. We would have the client like/love the work we have done and get further orders, rather then have to make a huge refund and then try to sell the army for a portion of the original quote.
So many edits... bah its early. Either way,hope this clears things up and no one burns me at the stake for it.
Quoted in case something changes and the above post disappears. Needless to say, I suspect most folks who saw what was actually given to Tenebre would have an issue with some things above.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
I make edits for clarity. English was never my best subject in school :-) if I have given misinformation I will correct it in a later post
"Accept that Tzeentch has a place for all of us in his grand scheme, and be happy in the part you have to play." "This is Chaos. We don't "ka-frickin'-boom" here."
Igenstilch wrote: I make edits for clarity. English was never my best subject in school :-) if I have given misinformation I will correct it in a later post
Your English is fine and the quote wasn't actually a reaction to you personally but rather because of the apparently standard BTP practice of wanting anything that doesn't praise them deleted (see Tenebre's missing video feed as an example). I don't think it is unreasonable to expect BTP to want you to erase your post if they became aware of it.
In any case, I saw around a dozen or so points where the company SHOULD have noticed the issues with the commission and stepped in to fix them as supposed professionals and one of (if not the) largest and most known companies in the field... and yet all of them were missed. You should have had contact with the buyer if he is paying for conversions to send him updates and not sending you 100% assembled models... you apparently didn't. When the painter flaked and was fired, the project manager should have taken the time to personally review the commision to make sure the painters knew exactly what was ordered (and was now LATE since those weeks were wasted). The project manager also should have informed Tenebre of the delay (but not necessarily the exact reasons) and frankly offered him a minor discount for the hassle of waiting much longer than quoted since it was not his fault. Neither happened. The painters (since you said multiple were assigned the job) should have been working together side by side so that the job was done in a cohesive manner... it wasn't. They also should have been sending updates to the customer; they didn't. Finally, they personally should have had access to the original commission details showing what Tenebre wanted (blood and gore) even if the manager dropped that ball; they didn't show that initiative either. The QA guy / Project Manager should be inspecting finalized work to make sure that the work matches what was actually ordered; he/she didn't and it wasn't a match. After that, they should be sending detailed pics to the client, which they didn't apparently. Shaun, seeing that the job was both screwed up due to the original painter flaking and was weeks/months (can't recall which) overdue, should have also stepped in on a job OF THAT SIZE AND COST to make sure it wasn't screwed up; he didn't. I guess he was too busy making videos about his business prowess and about how great the communication between customers and his staff that clearly didn't happen in that case is.
That doesn't include the multiple points where Shaun personally screwed up his customer service in the aftermath when he should have been correcting the mistakes that were 100% his company's fault.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/18 17:29:35
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
I'm out of the loop on the tenebre stuff, as well as most of BTP's current and recent practices. So, I won't presume to comment on any of that. I'll stick to what I know.
First.. I should go on the record to say that, while I've never been an employee of BTP, I HAVE done a sort of independent contractor work for them. Shawn used to create monthly updates. I'd take it, format it, insert appropriate images from the projects he was discussing, then post those updates on various internet forums. In return, Shawn paid me in painting credit. This was probably in the area of 9 or 10 years ago.
I am happy with the work I got from BTP. It will never win awards, but it is exactly what I expected. In one case, I got more... I did a very top heavy conversion of a Defiler (added Karamazov's throne to the top of it with a Khorne character sitting in it - back when the throne was ONLY metal). With no extra charge, Shawn magnetized it so that the throne would stay on better.
When I dealt with Shawn (he's also been a Bartertown advertiser, where I am n Admin [for those who don't know]) for any reason, he's always been pleasant.
That being said...
I can't speak for 'current" Shawn, but the Shawn I knew was a great guy.
Shawn's biggest complaint was always that people had an elevated idea of what tabletop standard should be... one with which I agree. With the explosion of CMoN and the increasing number of GREAT painters who do stellar work as "basic" for them -Really. Some of you guys are just THAT good- people started expecting higher standards.. Excluding models that had parts of them unpainted or had details missed or painted wrong (the exceptions), I still think what BTP does as basic painting is and should be considered Tabeltop. I am not a huge fan of their higher levels, and I'll leave it at that.
There was a time when BTP produced that "tabletop" quality for REALLY reasonable prices (IMO).
Then, things changed.
I think it started with a legal issue.
Early on, when Shawn started taking on other painters, they signed an agreement (or maybe had a verbal one?) that they were independent contractors. This went on for a long time and BTP thrived. At some point, for whatever reason, some employees discovered that an independent contractor, apparently, had some very specific guidelines that had to be met. The way they were working for Shawn, they should have been considered employees.
My details in this next area are a bit gray, thus I am being as generic as possible.
There was, I believe, some sort of legal or private agreement made and I believe Shawn made his painters and staff employees at that time.
You know what? It's far more expensive to have employees than to have independent contractors. BTP's costs went up. To pay for the higher costs, they now have to charge higher prices.
There's no defense of his business practices here. Nor is there criticism. I'm not in his shoes, so I don't know what could've been done differently. Maybe he could have done something to keep them as contractors. I don't know. Maybe not. I know that some of his staff moved on and started Brand X Painting (BXP) that floundered for a while before, I think, going under. It might've been that the other painters he had would ONLY accept being an employee and he had to give in, so as not to lose them all and be unable to complete his existing contracts. I don't know.
But that's where it sits. I think that the whole "independent contractor to employee" problem was the beginning of the end for them.
Eric
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MagickalMemories wrote: I'm out of the loop on the tenebre stuff, as well as most of BTP's current and recent practices. So, I won't presume to comment on any of that. I'll stick to what I know.
First.. I should go on the record to say that, while I've never been an employee of BTP, I HAVE done a sort of independent contractor work for them. Shawn used to create monthly updates. I'd take it, format it, insert appropriate images from the projects he was discussing, then post those updates on various internet forums. In return, Shawn paid me in painting credit. This was probably in the area of 9 or 10 years ago.
I am happy with the work I got from BTP. It will never win awards, but it is exactly what I expected. In one case, I got more... I did a very top heavy conversion of a Defiler (added Karamazov's throne to the top of it with a Khorne character sitting in it - back when the throne was ONLY metal). With no extra charge, Shawn magnetized it so that the throne would stay on better.
When I dealt with Shawn (he's also been a Bartertown advertiser, where I am n Admin [for those who don't know]) for any reason, he's always been pleasant.
That being said...
I can't speak for 'current" Shawn, but the Shawn I knew was a great guy.
Shawn's biggest complaint was always that people had an elevated idea of what tabletop standard should be... one with which I agree. With the explosion of CMoN and the increasing number of GREAT painters who do stellar work as "basic" for them -Really. Some of you guys are just THAT good- people started expecting higher standards.. Excluding models that had parts of them unpainted or had details missed or painted wrong (the exceptions), I still think what BTP does as basic painting is and should be considered Tabeltop. I am not a huge fan of their higher levels, and I'll leave it at that.
There was a time when BTP produced that "tabletop" quality for REALLY reasonable prices (IMO).
Then, things changed.
I think it started with a legal issue.
Early on, when Shawn started taking on other painters, they signed an agreement (or maybe had a verbal one?) that they were independent contractors. This went on for a long time and BTP thrived. At some point, for whatever reason, some employees discovered that an independent contractor, apparently, had some very specific guidelines that had to be met. The way they were working for Shawn, they should have been considered employees.
My details in this next area are a bit gray, thus I am being as generic as possible.
There was, I believe, some sort of legal or private agreement made and I believe Shawn made his painters and staff employees at that time.
You know what? It's far more expensive to have employees than to have independent contractors. BTP's costs went up. To pay for the higher costs, they now have to charge higher prices.
There's no defense of his business practices here. Nor is there criticism. I'm not in his shoes, so I don't know what could've been done differently. Maybe he could have done something to keep them as contractors. I don't know. Maybe not. I know that some of his staff moved on and started Brand X Painting (BXP) that floundered for a while before, I think, going under. It might've been that the other painters he had would ONLY accept being an employee and he had to give in, so as not to lose them all and be unable to complete his existing contracts. I don't know.
But that's where it sits. I think that the whole "independent contractor to employee" problem was the beginning of the end for them.
Eric
That's pretty interesting. I'm fairly sure Frontline Gaming uses the independent contractor model for completing their painting commissions. I guess they're doing it correctly.
Here in the uk it's often referred to as the master-slave relationship; it boils down to 'do you work for one or many masters'? If it's just one, then the argument can be made that you should be an employee. If for example I only did work for mantic, then I can't really claim self-employed status. If I work at least occasionally for other parties then all is good, and hmrc don't bother with wonderng why they're not getting their cut every pay cycle.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/18 18:37:03
winterdyne wrote: Here in the uk it's often referred to as the master-slave relationship; it boils down to 'do you work for one or many masters'? If it's just one, then the argument can be made that you should be an employee. If for example I only did work for mantic, then I can't really claim self-employed status. If I work at least occasionally for other parties then all is good, and hmrc don't bother with wonderng why they're not getting their cut every pay cycle.
I am pretty sure that Frontline allows its contractors to sell their work in other venues. There was a thread a while back explaining what had happen. Some of the painters actually looked into what it was to be a independent contractor and found they needed to do work for other then BTP. So they sold some miniatures on ebay to help out BTP and apparently they got canned because Shawn considered the painters under exclusive contract with BTP. That is when the IRS got involved and the business practice of Blue Table painting changed. This is why running a multi-painter studio is a fairly risky and expensive business. The studio needs a constant flow of commission and or miniatures to sell to stay in business. The big studios seem to work in Sri Lanka but the cost of living is cheap and the work rules are not as invasive as they are in the US.
MagickalMemories wrote: I'm out of the loop on the tenebre stuff, as well as most of BTP's current and recent practices. So, I won't presume to comment on any of that. I'll stick to what I know.
First.. I should go on the record to say that, while I've never been an employee of BTP, I HAVE done a sort of independent contractor work for them. Shawn used to create monthly updates. I'd take it, format it, insert appropriate images from the projects he was discussing, then post those updates on various internet forums. In return, Shawn paid me in painting credit. This was probably in the area of 9 or 10 years ago.
I am happy with the work I got from BTP. It will never win awards, but it is exactly what I expected. In one case, I got more... I did a very top heavy conversion of a Defiler (added Karamazov's throne to the top of it with a Khorne character sitting in it - back when the throne was ONLY metal). With no extra charge, Shawn magnetized it so that the throne would stay on better.
When I dealt with Shawn (he's also been a Bartertown advertiser, where I am n Admin [for those who don't know]) for any reason, he's always been pleasant.
That being said...
I can't speak for 'current" Shawn, but the Shawn I knew was a great guy.
Shawn's biggest complaint was always that people had an elevated idea of what tabletop standard should be... one with which I agree. With the explosion of CMoN and the increasing number of GREAT painters who do stellar work as "basic" for them -Really. Some of you guys are just THAT good- people started expecting higher standards.. Excluding models that had parts of them unpainted or had details missed or painted wrong (the exceptions), I still think what BTP does as basic painting is and should be considered Tabeltop. I am not a huge fan of their higher levels, and I'll leave it at that.
There was a time when BTP produced that "tabletop" quality for REALLY reasonable prices (IMO).
Then, things changed.
I think it started with a legal issue.
Early on, when Shawn started taking on other painters, they signed an agreement (or maybe had a verbal one?) that they were independent contractors. This went on for a long time and BTP thrived. At some point, for whatever reason, some employees discovered that an independent contractor, apparently, had some very specific guidelines that had to be met. The way they were working for Shawn, they should have been considered employees.
My details in this next area are a bit gray, thus I am being as generic as possible.
There was, I believe, some sort of legal or private agreement made and I believe Shawn made his painters and staff employees at that time.
You know what? It's far more expensive to have employees than to have independent contractors. BTP's costs went up. To pay for the higher costs, they now have to charge higher prices.
There's no defense of his business practices here. Nor is there criticism. I'm not in his shoes, so I don't know what could've been done differently. Maybe he could have done something to keep them as contractors. I don't know. Maybe not. I know that some of his staff moved on and started Brand X Painting (BXP) that floundered for a while before, I think, going under. It might've been that the other painters he had would ONLY accept being an employee and he had to give in, so as not to lose them all and be unable to complete his existing contracts. I don't know.
But that's where it sits. I think that the whole "independent contractor to employee" problem was the beginning of the end for them.
Eric
That's pretty interesting. I'm fairly sure Frontline Gaming uses the independent contractor model for completing their painting commissions. I guess they're doing it correctly.
Being an independent contractor means you don't have to pay a number of payroll taxes. You also have less control over the quality of work you get out of them because if you supervise them and tell them what or how to do things, that is technically an employer/employee relationship. If the IRS disagrees with you and you have to pay those taxes, expect to pay interest and penalties. Depending on the corporate structure of the business, they can end up on the individual(s) who own the business (ie sole proprietor/partnership). The base guidelines are attached in the link below.
Mchaagen wrote: Shawn talks about the BTP store 'for sale' ad at around 9:57.
Spoiler:
This is seriously messed up... I don't want to be misinterpreted as being mean-spirited but watching that makes me really worry about his emotional and psychological state of mind. I don't know how staring off blankly into the camera for thirty seconds after explaining the zen of the ebb and flow of the universe is helping out his business model. What I see is a man at the end of his rope, in serious need of help. If I was considering commissioning anything from BTP, watching that completely would have dissuaded me.
His rationale for putting his business up for sale? He thinks "abstractly" and wanted to "put it out there"... What the hell kind of businesses practice is that?
I feel like he's a good guy who is being overwhelmed by the difficulties in his life, his business probably adding quite a bit to that. I just could not take him seriously after he said: "I have a woman now". This supposed update reeks of emotinal instability and loss of touch with reality, I really hope things start going better for him and all the people over at BTP.
Shawn's biggest complaint was always that people had an elevated idea of what tabletop standard should be... one with which I agree. With the explosion of CMoN and the increasing number of GREAT painters who do stellar work as "basic" for them -Really. Some of you guys are just THAT good- people started expecting higher standards.. Excluding models that had parts of them unpainted or had details missed or painted wrong (the exceptions), I still think what BTP does as basic painting is and should be considered Tabeltop. I am not a huge fan of their higher levels, and I'll leave it at that.
There was a time when BTP produced that "tabletop" quality for REALLY reasonable prices (IMO).
The main problem was (in short) that they had many levels of quality on their site and Ten wanted high tabletop (I think it was 4 or 5 on their scale of up to 7 or 8 (and then even higher levels that were not on the scale, how does that even work?)) standard as a minimum. In the few pictures of that standard it looked like nice base-coats (on everything) with highlights and shadings (and the text regarding that level described what to expect in more detail). Also the photos were quite blurry for a painting service that has been in the business for so long, it feels like they don't want you to see the level of quality they can paint.
In the video shows of the finished work the stuff that was supposed to be the lowest quality of the commission (most basic troops at level 4) was shown with way too much black showing through to be considered deep-shading or blacklining, some quite adventurous airbrush base-coats, and a lot of the details not even painted. On top of that the higher level stuff (heroes/monsters) were not really different from the rest of the troops with a lot of stuff lacking. On top of that he wanted the army blood-splattered but got cheap airbrush gradient OSL lava bases.
It should be mentioned that correspondence was to happen and his feedback was supposed to be considered but from his review nothing really happened and the whole army was months late on top of that. I was in some way sad watching the video, he really tried to find good things about the work (and even found some units acceptable while I wouldn't have accepted any of these as the intended level) in his review while talking about his huge army that he collected over the years with most of it being FW, OOP, and conversions.
That had only to do with the idea of a elevated tabletop standard insofar as they billed him for a high quality paint job and then just didn't do the work (seeing a competent and simple base-coat would have been nice from a professional service) and they didn't even manage that (that would have been level 1 or 2 or something like that).
^^ What he said. I saw shots of the received commissions; regardless of the "unusual circumstances" surrounding this particular commission, the finished paintjobs were bad. Even if everything else had gone swimmingly, the end result was awful, not even up to tabletop standard.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." -Napoleon
I understood all that from reading this thread. I just wanted to point out, for those who might misinterpret anything I said as being somehow related to that issue, that I was trying to see if I couldn't pinpoint where BTP (for lack of a better term) "took a wrong turn."
I actually think there was a time when Shawn's business worked; where it was a decent product (if you understood what he was offering) at a decent price done in a decent amount of time.
Eric
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MagickalMemories wrote: I actually think there was a time when Shawn's business worked; where it was a decent product (if you understood what he was offering) at a decent price done in a decent amount of time.
Really? How long ago was that? Because it's been years since BTP has offered a good product. Years ago when I first heard about BTP they had major quality issues (poor results, lazy shortcuts like not painting the bottom of vehicles, etc) and a customer service policy that was essentially "lol we have your money, sucks to be you if you don't like what you get". They've survived entirely on good marketing and an endless supply of new members of the gaming community that haven't yet heard warnings about BTP.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
MagickalMemories wrote: I understood all that from reading this thread. I just wanted to point out, for those who might misinterpret anything I said as being somehow related to that issue, that I was trying to see if I couldn't pinpoint where BTP (for lack of a better term) "took a wrong turn."
I actually think there was a time when Shawn's business worked; where it was a decent product (if you understood what he was offering) at a decent price done in a decent amount of time.
Eric
It changed when Shawn could not pay his painters by the Project and had to pay them by the hour. The standards for painting could be a bit better because BTP could be picky on the end results, it did not cost more money get problem corrected. More incentive for the artist to get it right the first time.
Mchaagen wrote: Shawn talks about the BTP store 'for sale' ad at around 9:57.
Spoiler:
This is seriously messed up... I don't want to be misinterpreted as being mean-spirited but watching that makes me really worry about his emotional and psychological state of mind. I don't know how staring off blankly into the camera for thirty seconds after explaining the zen of the ebb and flow of the universe is helping out his business model. What I see is a man at the end of his rope, in serious need of help. If I was considering commissioning anything from BTP, watching that completely would have dissuaded me.
His rationale for putting his business up for sale? He thinks "abstractly" and wanted to "put it out there"... What the hell kind of businesses practice is that?
I feel like he's a good guy who is being overwhelmed by the difficulties in his life, his business probably adding quite a bit to that. I just could not take him seriously after he said: "I have a woman now". This supposed update reeks of emotinal instability and loss of touch with reality, I really hope things start going better for him and all the people over at BTP.
Agreed.
Something feels really wrong with that video and the end just adds to it. I have never seen a video to advertise a store have the owner wax and wane about life and then just stare in silence. Also wasnt he already married? Did something happen? Why is he talking about a new woman when he was talking about selling his store?
The entire video made me feel really uncomfortable...
ClockworkChaos wrote: Also wasnt he already married? Did something happen? Why is he talking about a new woman when he was talking about selling his store?
BTP is based in Utah. Being married and finding a new woman in your life aren't mutually exclusive depending on exactly what part of the state you're in.
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