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Sigvatr wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
So, we're assuming these recasters are big companies or organizations? I thought they were self employed individuals.

Depends. There certainly are inviduals, but some are better organized in the open or are organized upon themselves...a "company" instead of a company.

lord_blackfang wrote:Considering the volume of sales, you can bet that some of these guys have a couple of helping hands.

I'm fairly sure at least one of the best known chinese recasters has several employees. They even take vacations and all that.

As for testing resin, normally you could run a DSC and/or FTIR to find out what the material is;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_scanning_calorimetry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_transform_infrared_spectroscopy
Both will destroy the sample in the process, but the sample only needs to be about the size of your finger nail.
Both are very expensive pieces of equipment then the cost of having specialized technicians to run them.

Resin is a petroleum based product so the price depends on what the market price of oil is;

Resin is naturally clear,so color needs to be added, most plastics have a "cookie recipe" of may types components used in the process.
If they are using one type resin then it is pre blended.So if they are buy it in China also; I am sure they are not getting a Certificate of Analysis saying what it truly is
There is a number of additives that can migrate to the surface days after the product is produced and mold release agents could also be something bad;
So remember kids to wash your miniatures and for some gamers "yourself" also.

Games Workshop is having enough trouble with their odd ball business practices and War Machine kicking their but in the market place; Just don't want my dwindling fellow 40k players
doing something that could endanger themselves without realizing it.

 agnosto wrote:
*snip*

You'll note that nowhere in my statement did I address YOU, personally. I simply observed the jingoistic attitude expressed through the comment;

*snip*

I currently don't have the time to waste responding to your whole post but in the interest of addressing this point. You quoted me directly and said "What a completely jingoistic idea to express."

That is just stupid. For one, if that's not addressing me personally then you need to work on your communications skills. For two, it's not jingoist to discuss the merits of ONE particular aspect of a culture and it's not jingoist to point out the fact that no, nothing will change unless the culture changes (and cultures do change, value systems do change). I'll also point out the fact that I'm fully aware that even western culture for a large part thinks piracy/copyright infringement is fine. Jingoism also implies a level of nationalism which makes it an ignorant statement to make without actually knowing the background of the people you are talking to.

Now maybe I'm wrong in preferring the idea that a customer supports the person who actually created the art instead of the person who can copy it for the lowest price, fine, say that. Don't imply someone is fething jingoist for discussing the merits of ONE aspect of western culture that I'd hardly consider a strong aspect anyway. It's insulting just as much as it would be insulting to call someone unpatriotic for them pointing out an aspect of their own culture that they don't like.

We are advanced enough of a society to discuss the topics themselves without ignorantly lumping people under ill considered labels.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
*snip*

You'll note that nowhere in my statement did I address YOU, personally. I simply observed the jingoistic attitude expressed through the comment;

*snip*

I currently don't have the time to waste responding to your whole post but in the interest of addressing this point. You quoted me directly and said "What a completely jingoistic idea to express."

That is just stupid. For one, if that's not addressing me personally then you need to work on your communications skills. For two, it's not jingoist to discuss the merits of ONE particular aspect of a culture and it's not jingoist to point out the fact that no, nothing will change unless the culture changes (and cultures do change, value systems do change). I'll also point out the fact that I'm fully aware that even western culture for a large part thinks piracy/copyright infringement is fine. Jingoism also implies a level of nationalism which makes it an ignorant statement to make without actually knowing the background of the people you are talking to.

Now maybe I'm wrong in preferring the idea that a customer supports the person who actually created the art instead of the person who can copy it for the lowest price, fine, say that. Don't imply someone is fething jingoist for discussing the merits of ONE aspect of western culture that I'd hardly consider a strong aspect anyway. It's insulting just as much as it would be insulting to call someone unpatriotic for them pointing out an aspect of their own culture that they don't like.

We are advanced enough of a society to discuss the topics themselves without ignorantly lumping people under ill considered labels.

I'm sorry if you are unable to separate an idea that is commonly expressed from a personal attack, but that is literally what I wrote. I stated that the idea presented was insulting in that it insinuates that an entire culture need change for someone to be more comfortable with said culture. If the concept is one that you, personally, hold so dear that you take a comment about the idea as a personal attack, then I feel sorry for you. Instead of flying off the handle, you could have simply stated that I misunderstood your comment, if that were the case. I'm not perfect, misunderstandings happen, I would have apologized and moved on.

Out of curiosity, which ONE part of your culture that outsiders might find reprehensible are you willing to change so that they are more comfortable in their interactions with you? Someone from China reading this discussion could find yours and other comments insulting but you don't seem overly concerned about that.

I have not labeled you. I labeled a statement by you. Just as one off-color comment does not make someone racist or sexist (or any -ist); I made no assumptions about you, personally because I don't know you. Your comment could very well be a throw-away or you could be spoiling for a fight just for kicks, I don't know which is why I addressed the comment, not you personally. Whatever the case, you seem to have convinced yourself that an attack has taken place and that is just not true.

Even if my comment was directed at you; are you so caring of what a random stranger types on the internet that it gets you so riled that you feel the need for harsh language (I.e. "fething")? My advice, hit the ignore user button and move on instead of letting the internet get you so mad.

Anyway, I've tried to explain; you appear to be dead set on taking umbrage that I dislike the fact that certain groups expect the world to change to fit their little idea of what it should!d look like (whether you share that opinion or not). Moving on.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm not putting any moral or legal argument forward here, I'm saying that if I was selling an already cheap material, trying to make it go further with another cheap material seems pointless.

At the end of the day, you're free to hold your fears and concerns, whether legitimate or no, but unless someone can put forward a compelling argument for using something toxic in addition to or instead of simple resin, I'm not going to be persuaded they have any basis in fact.

The problem I have with your argument is that it assumes good business practices for people who are engaged in illegal operations. Surely we can agree that the recasters are motivated by profit or else they wouldn't be using the "easy" method of producing miniatures by stealing the designs of another company to sell on the black market. Instead they'd sculpt and develop their own products to sell and get into the miniatures market the "hard" way.

So, if the recasters are motivated by profit, and there is a way to increase that profit by cutting corners in material safety***, why wouldn't they take it? That is my point. You seem so willing to assume that people who are morally loose in their business practices still take customer safety into consideration when choosing the materials they work with. I assume the opposite. Given a chance to squeeze a few more pennies out of a batch of resin, a counterfeiter will do so because they are not accountable to their customers like a traditional business is. Hence we are going in circles. You think it is clearly obvious they wouldn't do something that I see no reason why they wouldn't be doing.


*** This is a major component of the problem regarding the counterfeiters. I came to this thread asking for information regarding which (if any) products could be introduced to resin to extend its use, and no one seemed to have an answer. Perhaps that is good in that there isn't anything that could be added to resin which makes it more dangerous while also extending its use or otherwise making it more profitable. However, just because this small community on Dakka hasn't been able to satisfactorily answer the question does not mean that such a product doesn't exist. So, for me, that is strike one for your argument.

We also have Sigvtar's experience testing resin which did come from a recaster and it demonstrated slightly higher toxicity levels. Again, this could be nothing, or it could be something. There isn't enough information to satisfy my concerns. However, your repeated attempts to assuage my concerns with appeals to good business sense on the part of recasters is comical to me given what little we do know about recasters and given the nature of their business. Strike two.

Finally, there is the well documented cases of major companies in China using materials that were found to be poisonous for the end users. Since the issues above could not be satisfactorily addressed, this becomes strike three for me. Given the cultural business climate in China where even their own citizens distrust the products made there I have no faith in the materials used to make knock off Forge World models.

So, I'll continue to be "scared" and you can continue to buy from the back alley vendors of the internet, and we can go on our merry way. However, this thread did nothing for me other than add to my skepticism about the safety of the counterfeit gaming products coming out of China.

It does not assume good business practices, it assumes the most fundamental understanding of the most basic business concept is sell for the most money possible, make for the least.

If there were any sort of credible alternative to resin that offered a saving and was highly toxic, but still allowed the production of miniatures to the quality reported, then I'd say you have a point. We have people here on Dakka who cast in a commercial or semi commercial basis, as well as for hobby purposes, and I've spent at least a little time investigating it as a result of this and similar thread, and found nothing that poses any significant risk once the resin is cured. Nearly all the risk is during the casting process itself.

The "slightly more toxic" results are such that Sigvtar seems happy to have them around his children, so I'm guessing that's very much on the nothing end of the something/nothing spectrum.

As it stands, I'll continue to believe that you're letting irrational fears cloud your judgment, and the fact that this thread has heightened your skepticism despite the only anecdotal and evidential information leaning towards the more positive in regards to safety merely underlines that.

Even if the miniatures are toxic, there are many common household items which are far more poisonous. Don't ever mix ammonia and bleach for example.

If the recast stuff was really toxic then we would hear it by now. Is it more toxic than the lead miniatures i used as a kid?
Especially when Chinese sites like alie express is closing the sellers who sell recast so these people have to sell via mailing list and if they would be dodgy they would lose most of their customers.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Even if the miniatures are toxic, there are many common household items which are far more poisonous. Don't ever mix ammonia and bleach for example.

The problem with this logic is that no one is selling kits of ammonia and bleach meant to be handled and touched and played with. The two chemicals are sold separately and have clear warnings about handling and usage and are very regulated.

Those products (at least in the states) are all VERY clearly warning labeled. I highly doubt the same can be said of a toxic quality resin recasters product (which is not to say all recasters use such).

This is akin to saying "Even if wolves bite people, Golden Retrievers bite more people than wolves do each year, so i don't see the problem with owning wolves as pets." The logic suffers from the fact that the reason why Golden Retrievers bite more people than wolves is that there are way more of them in areas that people also inhabit. Your statement basically says "There's lots of more dangerous stuff around most houses, what's the big deal".

The thing is that the consumer is informed of that, taught how to potentially mitigate issues, and there's a warning label indicating what to do in case of exposure. Not so of recasters product more than likely.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
If the recast stuff was really toxic then we would hear it by now. Is it more toxic than the lead miniatures i used as a kid?
Especially when Chinese sites like alie express is closing the sellers who sell recast so these people have to sell via mailing list and if they would be dodgy they would lose most of their customers.

Resin has known carcinogenic properties, particularly if inhaled as particulate. We have heard about this. It's why anyone who knows what they're talking about when talking about cutting, filing, sanding, or otherwise working with resin being broken or manipulated in any way that produces particulate recommends ventilated space and a dust mask.

Even good quality resin has this issue. Most epoxy, polyurethane, and polyester resins have MDS sheets that contain known or suspected carcinogens like epochlorohydrin and other fun stuff in it like fibreglass, styrene, and isocyanate. Some of these have MDS exposure limits of as little as .005 parts per million safe exposure per 8 hour period. Note too that isocyanate can be inhaled, or exposure can happen via skin contact.

Isocyanate is not an acute danger ; it's a culmulative one. It gets in your blood, and your body literally cannot process it or get rid of it. When a threshold of isocyanate is crossed (which depends on a variety of factor), you basically develop a permanent allergy to most types of plastics producing flu and pneumonia like symptoms for a period of time after contact with plastics containing polyurethane or poly-blends. This *never* goes away.


Just saying, resin being stuff you shouldn't screw around with if you don't know what you're doing is nothing new. Use a dust mask at least, respirator if possible, and use gloves that go up past the wrist when working with this stuff.

 Haight wrote:
Resin has known carcinogenic properties, particularly if inhaled as particulate. We have heard about this. It's why anyone who knows what they're talking about when talking about cutting, filing, sanding, or otherwise working with resin being broken or manipulated in any way that produces particulate recommends ventilated space and a dust mask.

But isn't this just the same problem with dust in general, regardless of whether it's from plastic or resin or wood or any other thing you're cutting/sanding/grinding/etc?

and use gloves that go up past the wrist when working with this stuff.

Could you explain this in more detail? Is this actually a necessary safety measure for the average hobbyist (IOW, not spending 8 hours a day handling resin), or is it just paranoia? Because this is honestly the first time I've ever seen anyone suggest wearing gloves because it's bad to touch resin models. And you would think that if this is really a legitimate risk the manufacturers would be required to include some kind of warning.

 Haight wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
If the recast stuff was really toxic then we would hear it by now. Is it more toxic than the lead miniatures i used as a kid?
Especially when Chinese sites like alie express is closing the sellers who sell recast so these people have to sell via mailing list and if they would be dodgy they would lose most of their customers.

Resin has known carcinogenic properties, particularly if inhaled as particulate. We have heard about this. It's why anyone who knows what they're talking about when talking about cutting, filing, sanding, or otherwise working with resin being broken or manipulated in any way that produces particulate recommends ventilated space and a dust mask.

Even good quality resin has this issue. Most epoxy, polyurethane, and polyester resins have MDS sheets that contain known or suspected carcinogens like epochlorohydrin and other fun stuff in it like fibreglass, styrene, and isocyanate. Some of these have MDS exposure limits of as little as .005 parts per million safe exposure per 8 hour period. Note too that isocyanate can be inhaled, or exposure can happen via skin contact.

Isocyanate is not an acute danger ; it's a culmulative one. It gets in your blood, and your body literally cannot process it or get rid of it. When a threshold of isocyanate is crossed (which depends on a variety of factor), you basically develop a permanent allergy to most types of plastics producing flu and pneumonia like symptoms for a period of time after contact with plastics containing polyurethane or poly-blends. This *never* goes away.


Just saying, resin being stuff you shouldn't screw around with if you don't know what you're doing is nothing new. Use a dust mask at least, respirator if possible, and use gloves that go up past the wrist when working with this stuff.

All good advice, if you're casting with the stuff.

Handling cured resin carries none of these risks.

There's not even strong evidence I can find that resin dust is carcinogenic, it is possible, and inhaling quantities of any fine particulate is never a good idea, so caution is advisable, but that isn't simply the case with resins of dubious provenance.

 Haight wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Even if the miniatures are toxic, there are many common household items which are far more poisonous. Don't ever mix ammonia and bleach for example.

The problem with this logic is that no one is selling kits of ammonia and bleach meant to be handled and touched and played with. The two chemicals are sold separately and have clear warnings about handling and usage and are very regulated.

While that is true, wargaming miniatures are NOT toys. They're not handled in a way which would lead to someone getting poisoned through normal use. They're also not toxic enough to warrant any labeling or special regulation like bleach or ammonia.

And a kid is far more likely to injure himself by swallowing small parts than to get poisoned by the miniature.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Haight wrote:
Resin has known carcinogenic properties, particularly if inhaled as particulate. We have heard about this. It's why anyone who knows what they're talking about when talking about cutting, filing, sanding, or otherwise working with resin being broken or manipulated in any way that produces particulate recommends ventilated space and a dust mask.

But isn't this just the same problem with dust in general, regardless of whether it's from plastic or resin or wood or any other thing you're cutting/sanding/grinding/etc?

and use gloves that go up past the wrist when working with this stuff.

Could you explain this in more detail? Is this actually a necessary safety measure for the average hobbyist (IOW, not spending 8 hours a day handling resin), or is it just paranoia? Because this is honestly the first time I've ever seen anyone suggest wearing gloves because it's bad to touch resin models. And you would think that if this is really a legitimate risk the manufacturers would be required to include some kind of warning.

Normal dust isn't harmful even if you breathe it in moderate amounts, you'll cough, you'll sputter, but your lungs will expel it. Resin dust particulate is much harder, if not impossible for your lungs to expel. I'm not sure on sawdust, i know it's not good for you, but i don't think its cancerous, but i could be wrong (not a carpenter).


Re the gloves, think Lysol house cleaning gloves that go up past the forearm, and you're on the right track. You don't need walt white chemical grade rubber gloves, just whatever is going to keep you from breathing the stuff in / not getting it on your skin.

It's not bad to touch resin models, but it can be bad to touch some bare resin made of certain types, and its absolutely bad to touch resins in their constituent parts that are uncured or curing. Resins using isocyanates are most dangerous when curing, but are still dangerous once cured. GW finecast / Forgeworld are non isocyanate resins. You can't be sure that's the case with a recaster. Isocyanate resin is also dirt ass cheap.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
If the recast stuff was really toxic then we would hear it by now. Is it more toxic than the lead miniatures i used as a kid?
Especially when Chinese sites like alie express is closing the sellers who sell recast so these people have to sell via mailing list and if they would be dodgy they would lose most of their customers.

Resin has known carcinogenic properties, particularly if inhaled as particulate. We have heard about this. It's why anyone who knows what they're talking about when talking about cutting, filing, sanding, or otherwise working with resin being broken or manipulated in any way that produces particulate recommends ventilated space and a dust mask.

Even good quality resin has this issue. Most epoxy, polyurethane, and polyester resins have MDS sheets that contain known or suspected carcinogens like epochlorohydrin and other fun stuff in it like fibreglass, styrene, and isocyanate. Some of these have MDS exposure limits of as little as .005 parts per million safe exposure per 8 hour period. Note too that isocyanate can be inhaled, or exposure can happen via skin contact.

Isocyanate is not an acute danger ; it's a culmulative one. It gets in your blood, and your body literally cannot process it or get rid of it. When a threshold of isocyanate is crossed (which depends on a variety of factor), you basically develop a permanent allergy to most types of plastics producing flu and pneumonia like symptoms for a period of time after contact with plastics containing polyurethane or poly-blends. This *never* goes away.


Just saying, resin being stuff you shouldn't screw around with if you don't know what you're doing is nothing new. Use a dust mask at least, respirator if possible, and use gloves that go up past the wrist when working with this stuff.

All good advice, if you're casting with the stuff.

Handling cured resin carries none of these risks.

There's not even strong evidence I can find that resin dust is carcinogenic, it is possible, and inhaling quantities of any fine particulate is never a good idea, so caution is advisable, but that isn't simply the case with resins of dubious provenance.

Handling cured isocyanate resin is harmful.

As for "strong evidence", look up the MDS on any resin. The dust will contain known and suspected carcinogens of the resin. If you inhale this, and cannot expel it, you have inhaled a carcinogen. Ditto with inhaled vapors, and skin vector absorption.


Remember; the overarching point here is that you can't be sure what a recaster is using. If they are using very very cheap poly, poly blend, or other resin with Isocyanate in it, its a rather large culmulative risk of weird health ailments and possibly cancer.

I wouldn't want to take the risk personally. Not to save a hundred bucks or so on a forgeworld product. Just me.

But, as you say, it is a cumulative risk.

People who work with resin in large, commercial or industrial, scales every day for their working lives are at risk.

Hobbyists, except perhaps for one or two outliers and maybe some very busy commission painters (who are probably not likely to buy from China one would assume) aren't ever likely to be exposed in sufficient amounts for it to make a meaningful statistical impact to their health.

It's like saying if I smoke one cigarette, I'm statistically more likely to contract lung cancer, probably true, but not to the point i realistically need to be concerned.

That's based on the assumption, of course, that the product I'm using is toxic and I'm exposed to it sufficiently to make any impact.

That doesn't seem a high enough risk to be worth worrying about in proportion to the money to be saved. Just me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you do realise even the likes of Dulux (a large paint manufacturer) use isocyanate type polyurethane resins in their products?

It isn't really some dodgy back street product, and poses no greater risk than any other improperly handled chemical.

Totally! Yeah i'm not trying to bang the drum that if you pick up your unpainted finecast Draigo, you're hand will melt off by the end of your turn.

But there IS a risk, and people's tolerances for blood bound isocyanate sensitivity varies wildly. But it's better to be informed about things than just say "meh, what's the harm". There is a harm ; its up to each individual to gauge it. Your smoking analogy is an excellent one (as long as we ignore the addiction vector) : light one butt up ? You're probably not going to develop CPOD, Lung Cancer, or heart disease. The same cannot be said for, 20 years later, the 200,000th one.


Yes. And i totally realize that isocyanates have safe uses. They are used with chemicals that stop them from vaporizing, or molecularly halt the process by which they are vaporized (and thus inhaled), or bind them so they cannot be absorbed through the skin.

I would be willing to bet a re-caster using isocyanates is probably not doing the same.


We can also examine all the other heinous gak in resin on a case by case basis. Epichlorohydrin for example is pretty nasty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epichlorohydrin

Disclaimer: this is super old, but it's a start: http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/hesis/Documents/epoxy.pdf

But surely, the isocyanate is used as a catalyst and once the reaction is done, becomes inert? Or at least, cannot vaporise because it is bound in the resin?

I guess there's scope for it to cure improperly, but then it would obviously be weird gunk, rather than the material we are used to?

I'd be more inclined to worry about something unpleasant being used as a release, but unless it's really nasty, normal prep should deal with that.

The form the epichlorohydrin you link to is used in the production of epoxy resins hasn't been proven carcinogenic either,

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A_diglycidyl_ether

While some concerns have been raised in the last three decades it is actually used in the production of food packaging, so I'm fairly confident, in this form, handling models made with it is likely safe.

 Haight wrote:
Resin dust particulate is much harder, if not impossible for your lungs to expel. I'm not sure on sawdust, i know it's not good for you, but i don't think its cancerous, but i could be wrong (not a carpenter).

I can't find a clear source right now, but IIRC sawdust can also be a health issue in large enough quantities. But the main point was that resin dust isn't some kind of unique threat. Unless you've got some information that I'm not aware of the risk from resin dust is entirely due to it being dust of a particular size range, not the material it's made out of. Similar dust from sawing/sanding/etc plastic or metal models is exactly the same risk.

It's not bad to touch resin models, but it can be bad to touch some bare resin made of certain types, and its absolutely bad to touch resins in their constituent parts that are uncured or curing. Resins using isocyanates are most dangerous when curing, but are still dangerous once cured. GW finecast / Forgeworld are non isocyanate resins. You can't be sure that's the case with a recaster. Isocyanate resin is also dirt ass cheap.

Ok, that answers my question then. Models from GW (and presumably every other legitimate manufacturer) aren't a problem and you don't need to worry about gloves, this is just a "who knows what might be in it" risk with recasters.

As for "strong evidence", look up the MDS on any resin. The dust will contain known and suspected carcinogens of the resin. If you inhale this, and cannot expel it, you have inhaled a carcinogen. Ditto with inhaled vapors, and skin vector absorption.

Sure, but the MSDS is aimed at industrial use of the materials, not hobby uses. Obviously the component chemicals used in making a resin model are dangerous, and it's probably not a good idea to spend eight hours a day working in an environment full of resin dust without a mask. But risks that are relevant in an industrial context aren't necessarily relevant in a hobby context where you're only handling small amounts of the finished product and only for relatively short periods of time.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Haight wrote:
Resin dust particulate is much harder, if not impossible for your lungs to expel. I'm not sure on sawdust, i know it's not good for you, but i don't think its cancerous, but i could be wrong (not a carpenter).

I can't find a clear source right now, but IIRC sawdust can also be a health issue in large enough quantities. But the main point was that resin dust isn't some kind of unique threat. Unless you've got some information that I'm not aware of the risk from resin dust is entirely due to it being dust of a particular size range, not the material it's made out of. Similar dust from sawing/sanding/etc plastic or metal models is exactly the same risk.

It's not bad to touch resin models, but it can be bad to touch some bare resin made of certain types, and its absolutely bad to touch resins in their constituent parts that are uncured or curing. Resins using isocyanates are most dangerous when curing, but are still dangerous once cured. GW finecast / Forgeworld are non isocyanate resins. You can't be sure that's the case with a recaster. Isocyanate resin is also dirt ass cheap.

Ok, that answers my question then. Models from GW (and presumably every other legitimate manufacturer) aren't a problem and you don't need to worry about gloves, this is just a "who knows what might be in it" risk with recasters.

As for "strong evidence", look up the MDS on any resin. The dust will contain known and suspected carcinogens of the resin. If you inhale this, and cannot expel it, you have inhaled a carcinogen. Ditto with inhaled vapors, and skin vector absorption.

Sure, but the MSDS is aimed at industrial use of the materials, not hobby uses. Obviously the component chemicals used in making a resin model are dangerous, and it's probably not a good idea to spend eight hours a day working in an environment full of resin dust without a mask. But risks that are relevant in an industrial context aren't necessarily relevant in a hobby context where you're only handling small amounts of the finished product and only for relatively short periods of time.

Hitting the points in order, because multi-person quotes are a pain in the butt. I'm kind of responding to both You, Peregrine, and Azreal, so if something doesn't specifically seem to apply to one, it's probably in response to the other. Just to be clear. I tried to "quote tag" this up properly, but screwed it all up.

Yes, any old dust can be harmful. However sawdust in and of itself is not carcinogenic in addition to being dust. So these hard plastic / resin / etc particulates that get into your lungs and you can't expel have all the issues of normal particulate dust like sawdust, or drywall sanding particulate, etc., but those raw materials don't cause cancer. Sawdust inhaled might give you some reaction, but it won't cause a buildup in your blood of a known agent that causes chemical sensitivity / allergy, and contributes to cancer. As to the sufficient quantities, careful of being assuaged by this: Vitamin C in high enough concentrations can kill you. Hyperbolic and anecdotal on purpose ; the point is that "sufficient quantities" is different for every substance.

Correct. I would not fear Forgeworld, nor i assume, GW finecast. Past normal care type stuff, i wouldn't be worried. Haven't seen the same for Finecast, but i'd assume it's the same. I would still recommend wearing at least a dust mask when snapping / cutting / filing / sanding these substances.

Isocyanates are not just for industrial use, and the catalyst process does not render the isocyanates completely inert, it does not consume the isocyanate in the curing process completely (though i will 100% admit, the greatest harmful affect is inhalation of isocyanates in currently curing batch of poly or poly blend resin). Epichlorohydrin also persists through the process of lots of poly or poly blend resin. To the best of my knowledge Forgeworld does not use Epicholrohydrin in their resins. They use a type of resin that is rated as "no exposure limit" to the isocyanates in their resin, and this is probably due to a counter-action agent that makes skin absorption impossible (much like the aforementioned paint).

Epichlorohydrin is strongly suspected of being carcinogenic, and the articles i posted both admit that its a possible carcinogen used in food packaging / production. The amount of epichlorohydrin used in food and packaging for food has decreased by a huge amount since it was discovered to be possibly carcinogenic as well. As i mentioned, these are not the only two ... there's other nasty stuff in resin too. Point being is that there's a LOT of icky stuff in toxic resin concentrated into one substance. So sure you might say "Hey my tater-tots have packaging that has Epi in it, and i'm fine and i love me my tater tots". True. HOwever that tatertot bag probably doesn't have it in the concentration the resin does for one, and for another that bag doesn't also have Isocyanates in it, and about 4-6 other worrying compounds in it as well.


MDS is also not just aimed at industrial, but i see what you mean. They are all over the place at my work, and we're not "industrial", we're in construction. I have to go through an OSHA mandated MDS training every year. If you work in a largish company, you probably have an MDS book on site that you were shown on the first day of work where it was, and summarily have never thought of again. The problem is some of these chemicals have exposure limits of .005 parts per million (ppm) per eight hours. That is and *incredibly* small. It's within the window of "probably don't ever want to be exposed to this, ever, if i can possibly help it".

Remember too that some of these compounds continue to give off gaseous emissions even after the curing process. Direct skin to material contact is not necessarily required. My gaming storage closet is right behind my computer in my office. I spent a lot of time gaming, and on my computer. If the models behind me were giving off VOC's, i'd probably be having respiratory problems.


Anywho... like i said, though i'm engaging in point and counterpoint, the overarching point is that the stuff we know from trusted sources is overwhelmingly safe more than likely (again, i still recommend a dust mask when causing any breakage at all - cutting, sawing, filing...), but there's a ton of really cheap toxic as hell materials out there. It's a risk one should be aware. You can decide it's small enough that you're not concerned, but it is a risk. I'm just not comfortable buying a potentially health impacting product from someone that has no impetus to abide by any health and safety regulations.

I just think it's important that we're honest about the risk rather than writing it off (or by contrast getting all OMAHGAAWD, CANSUH-AIDS! by proxy. Taking an anti-vaxxer tact is just as bad.).

But even if recasters are using hazardous types of resin you aren't going to be exposed in high enough amounts to put yourself at significant cancer risk.

Unless you grind your models up and inhale all the dust you aren't in any danger. Sunbathing on a beach will be more harmful in the long term.

Just on the topic of recaster quality...

One thing I collect in addition to miniatures are Transformers. Mostly the higher end Masterpiece stuff, which can run anywhere fro $250- $500 here in Aus. And again, China has started providing knock off versions of these high priced items. But not only are they providing them at significantly reduced prices, or at qualities that render them nearly impossible to distinguish from the originals, in several cases they're actually improving them.

I suggest looking here.

The quality of some of the duplicate items coming out of China is absurd. It's crazy that I can buy a superior product for half the price.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

The answer to me is cost. Adding that gak to those products increased profit for those companies at the expense of consumers. So why wouldn't recasters do the same thing? Is there something you can add to resin to make it cheaper but with the "minor" side effect of causing cancer in anyone who comes in contact with it? I don't know, which is why I was asking. But I am genuinely surprised that you wonder why I, or others, might question the ethics of a business built off of "borrowing" the designs and IP's of another company when it comes to the safety of the materials used by said company. Especially when said company is located in a country known for its lax consumer protection laws, all the while other manufacturers in that very same country has been found to add poisonous additives to products that are sold on mainstream markets. Not legally gray markets like our non-FW sources ply.

I've been trading through this thread, and the biggest reason I can think of why recasters might not be adding cheaper, "more toxic" filler to their resin is because they actually have to work with the stuff, cast the stuff, remould the figures and package them. They'd be having a lot more direct daily contact with that stuff than their customers will (who you'd assume will be priming, painting and then varnishing them - adding layers between the resin and their handling it, and then putting it in a case or on a shelf - as opposed to maybe wearing gloves, but working with the stuff daily. Since recasters pretty much seem to be really small operations, with just a few people or 1-man shows - as opposed to an overlord in an office with a factory floor below, then it'd be ...ill advised to "cut" their resin with toxic waste, etc.

As for the guy who said that his grot tanks stunk of some sort of solvents. Obviously I can't smell his binned tanks, but my plastic tub of FW stuff stinks when I open it up, as do my "non-toxic" citadel and vallejo paints, as do my Maxmini, Kromlech, Puppetswar models. Resin stinks, regardless of where you get it from - especially when it's in a sealed or closed environment.

Yup, especially if they've been put in the case only after a short time from the paint drying. If they haven't aired for a significant amount of time, the vapors will sink into the case itself and the model will only release the vapors slowly.

 Azreal13 wrote:
That's a slightly flawed comparison, it would be more like

"I can buy a book printing and binding machine for $50 and I still don't produce my own books."

I would totally do that if the prices and quality were affordable. 3d printers and scanners in 5-10 years? I'll certainly be looking forward to what I can do with my old models (for my own use, of course)!

 Grey Templar wrote:
But even if recasters are using hazardous types of resin you aren't going to be exposed in high enough amounts to put yourself at significant cancer risk.

Unless you grind your models up and inhale all the dust you aren't in any danger. Sunbathing on a beach will be more harmful in the long term.

This is not accurate if you read any of the MDS stuff i posted on some of these materials. You keep saying these things, but if you understood chemical exposure at all, it's not. The exposure limits and ppm exposure rates for some of the cheaper, more readily available resins out there are small enough with miniatures.

I'm not sure you realize just how small .005 ppm exposure limit over 8 hours is. There is absolutely no comparison to UV light from sunlight for many reasons. First, one is a type of energy radiation, the other is chemical exposure. Another is you are getting WAY more, if we loosely find a way to compare UV exposure to ppm chemical exposure, UV exposure than chemicals. Which is fine, because the exposure limits of UV light to some of these chemicals is way higher.

You can say "All this is well and good, but I don't care". THat's valid, i can't refute that. However you are incorrect when you keep using these baseless analogies for comparison.


I will give you a couple "for instance". I deal with a lot of air quality emissions equipment in my line of work (construction, focusing heavily on MEP - mechanical, electrical, plumbing). One thing i work with a lot is heat delivery and recovery systems, so i deal iwth a lot of fossil fuel burning systems. Burners using LP or NG gas.

Air quality codes in most states require that the NOx (mono nitrogens, Nitric Oxide, and Nitrogen Dioxide) emissions at anywhere between sub 9 parts per million (9 ppm) in the most strict zones in the most strict states (Zones under South Coast Quality Air Management District act, and the Texas Air Code Comission in refinery country), to about sub 20 parts per million in built up metropolitan smog ridden areas (and fair being fair, there are areas with no NOx emissions rules).


So what they are saying is their threshold for clean air in the strictest places is: .000009% of the emissions given off by the burner can be NOx. For the less strict places, .000020%.



So what does .005 ppm mean ? What the MDS sheet on these chems is saying is that "safe" expsoure to untreated isocyanates is 5/100ths of 1 part per million per 8 hour period. Or .0000000005 parts per million.

That's ridiculously small. You might as well say "if these things contain any of it all, you're hitting content exposure", which means now you're just looking at contact exposure. As the two chemicals in question have a cumulative build up and one of them causes known and uncurable /irreversible plastic allergy sensitivity (which is an absolute BITCH, btw, just about everything has plastics in it), and may / probably cause cancer, I have to respectfully disagree with your above post.


Look, if you don't care. Fine. I can't say anything about it. But it's not really in question that gak quality resins are cheap and dangerous. Do you want to know why gaming company's don't use them ? They don't want to get sued. If the cheaper, nastier stuff was safer, they'd use it to save on cost if it had the durability to cast with.

They don't because it's a known toxic substance that they are going to have their customers in direct contact with. They don't want to save some money on up front first cost raw materials only to get sued into the stone age and out of business when someone makes a causal link claim.


And finally, once again, i'm not saying that recasters definitely are using this stuff. I"m saying that there's no way to know what they are using, and it's a risk. It's a risk everyone has to decide if they're okay taking or not, but it IS a risk. I personally wouldn't. Just being in the industry i'm in, I like making sure i know what the feth i'm coming in contact with.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azazelx wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

The answer to me is cost. Adding that gak to those products increased profit for those companies at the expense of consumers. So why wouldn't recasters do the same thing? Is there something you can add to resin to make it cheaper but with the "minor" side effect of causing cancer in anyone who comes in contact with it? I don't know, which is why I was asking. But I am genuinely surprised that you wonder why I, or others, might question the ethics of a business built off of "borrowing" the designs and IP's of another company when it comes to the safety of the materials used by said company. Especially when said company is located in a country known for its lax consumer protection laws, all the while other manufacturers in that very same country has been found to add poisonous additives to products that are sold on mainstream markets. Not legally gray markets like our non-FW sources ply.

I've been trading through this thread, and the biggest reason I can think of why recasters might not be adding cheaper, "more toxic" filler to their resin is because they actually have to work with the stuff, cast the stuff, remould the figures and package them. They'd be having a lot more direct daily contact with that stuff than their customers will (who you'd assume will be priming, painting and then varnishing them - adding layers between the resin and their handling it, and then putting it in a case or on a shelf - as opposed to maybe wearing gloves, but working with the stuff daily. Since recasters pretty much seem to be really small operations, with just a few people or 1-man shows - as opposed to an overlord in an office with a factory floor below, then it'd be ...ill advised to "cut" their resin with toxic waste, etc.

As for the guy who said that his grot tanks stunk of some sort of solvents. Obviously I can't smell his binned tanks, but my plastic tub of FW stuff stinks when I open it up, as do my "non-toxic" citadel and vallejo paints, as do my Maxmini, Kromlech, Puppetswar models. Resin stinks, regardless of where you get it from - especially when it's in a sealed or closed environment.

I would counter that most Chinese recaster 1 man operations know about as much about resins as most people in this thread. Which is to say, they aren't as informed as they think they are, and thus have no idea what they're using is harmful.

Also you can't "cut" resins with "toxic stuff". That makes no sense. This isn't heroin. You don't have a batch of "Awesome healthy Resin" in one tub, and "Toxic fething Death Resin" in another, and cut it up to make more profit.
They are chemical reagents. Mixing them is likely to just give you a ruined batch of crud rather than yielding anything.

Recasters are offering their products less expensively than the real deal. Many reasons for that: less overhead and costs though are the main ways. They only have to pay themselves, and they can cut costs. Like on materials. One of those materials might be a less expensive resin than the main operator. Like an old school toxic resin that is still readily available from chemical manufacturers, much more cheaply than some alternatives out there that are better for human contact.


... this is not that far fetched. I mean, haven't any of you read about some of the famous product contamination that has happened in China ?


Lumber liquidators flooring having too much Formaldyhyde :

http://www.forbes.com/sites/elaineschattner/2015/03/02/60-minutes-is-right-to-raise-questions-about-lumber-liquidators-toxic-floors/


Chinese baby milk contamination:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal



Chinese imported pet treats contaminated with melamine:

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/SafetyHealth/RecallsWithdrawals/ucm129575.htm



As for the "smell", I don't own much resin (see my last seventeen threads in this post as to why ), but none of my resins stink. Did you clean them before working with them ? I own a couple 32 mm figs, and maybe a handful of slightly larger. They are all stored together. I never get any smell at all when i open up the tub, and they are all in various states of assembly / primer / paint. Maybe though its just too small an amount, it's probably 6-7 figs tops.

Also as for the "stink", Epichlorohydrin in HIGH concentrations smells of sour garlic, but in the amounts we're talking about your dog probably couldn't detect it much less the human nose. Isocyanates are odorless even at concentration.

Point on this is the "smell test" is useless with chemicals. Look no further than Carbon Monoxide for an example. Odorless and absolutely lethal.



This is not me being tin-foil hatist. Un-and-under regulated goods coming out of China can, have, and on a long enough time line, will cause health and safety issues. Resin is already an inexpensive medium to work with when using "safer" resins. The toxic stuff is very very cheap. If a recaster chose to use a different, cheaper, more toxic (probably unknowingly!) medium to put more money in his pocket on raw material reduction cost, you'd never know it from a recaster. For me, the possible risks aren't worth the savings. I'm really not sure why anyone WOULD take the risk if they were fully informed, but that's wading into the court of opinion rather than fact and information.

Everyone is throwing around, is it toxic or not..
I look at it this way. You can compare buying knock offs as the same as buying seafood from a stranger's car trunk,

Is it safe? Maybe
Is it handle correctly? Maybe
Can I get sick from it? Maybe
Should it smell like that? Maybe

That is allot of maybes


But the real question is, Why am I getting it for such a cheap price?

 Genoside07 wrote:
But the real question is, Why am I getting it for such a cheap price?

It's not like recasters products are truly "cheap", but the official product is simply beyond the "ridiculously expensive" tag.

Recast prices are most of the time what I would consider GW official prices to be fine.

5 recasted terminator-sized models for around 25$ is not what I would call a "cheap product", but it's more or less in line with what other companies charge. The issue lies with the 50$ Forgeworld asks.

 Korinov wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
But the real question is, Why am I getting it for such a cheap price?

It's not like recasters products are truly "cheap", but the official product is simply beyond the "ridiculously expensive" tag.

Recast prices are most of the time what I would consider GW official prices to be fine.

5 recasted terminator-sized models for around 25$ is not what I would call a "cheap product", but it's more or less in line with what other companies charge. The issue lies with the 50$ Forgeworld asks.

What companies are charging around $25 for 5 models on 40mm bases?

 Kanluwen wrote:

What companies are charging around $25 for 5 models on 40mm bases?

Well, on GW's cartoony squatting scale, I can't really tell. I do have seen terminator-like models (which in other companies' catalogues means halfway between GW standard marine and terminator, probably closer to the first one), usually assembled on 25-30mm bases (non-squatting models don't really need huge bases) for that price.

I can't remember right now, but I've seen at least one thread in the P&M section where someone had converted Dreamforge's valkir assault troopers (5 for 20$ iirc) into terminators. They looked a bit small if compared to GW's standard terminator, but then again GW's scale nowadays is like 33mm, not 28mm. The only bigger "marines" I've ever seen are em4 space rangers, who look huge even compared to GW marines :S (although they're standing upright and not squatting, that may help).

 Korinov wrote:


5 recasted terminator-sized models for around 25$ is not what I would call a "cheap product", but it's more or less in line with what other companies charge. The issue lies with the 50$ Forgeworld asks.

Precisely. We don't buy recasts because we couldn't afford the real ones...quite in the contrary. We're just not going to pay the price FW asks for them as it's hideously overblown. And sure, you can claim "Then don't buy them at all!" but we want the models. So we buy it where we want. Deal with it.

 Korinov wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

What companies are charging around $25 for 5 models on 40mm bases?

Well, on GW's cartoony squatting scale, I can't really tell. I do have seen terminator-like models (which in other companies' catalogues means halfway between GW standard marine and terminator, probably closer to the first one), usually assembled on 25-30mm bases (non-squatting models don't really need huge bases) for that price.

I can't remember right now, but I've seen at least one thread in the P&M section where someone had converted Dreamforge's valkir assault troopers (5 for 20$ iirc) into terminators. They looked a bit small if compared to GW's standard terminator, but then again GW's scale nowadays is like 33mm, not 28mm. The only bigger "marines" I've ever seen are em4 space rangers, who look huge even compared to GW marines :S (although they're standing upright and not squatting, that may help).

So you can name ONE company.

My God, the industry really is so far ahead of Games Workshop in terms of its pricing!