Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Grotzookas, don't forget the Grotzookas. When I finish my collection and put together my diorama I also want grots in all forms so the Grot Tanks are on my list of things to get. Mass Tank Shock across a wide tank line....oh yeah.

 office_waaagh wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:

Unbound unbound unbound!! Apparently I'm the only person on Dakka who worships unbound.

Against a good, experienced player it folds easily. Breaking of Bosses is very useful. They can join my single unit DeffKoptas for ablative wounds. Win or lose, it's a headache for my opponent.

Hey man, unbound is cool with me! I wouldn't want to build a super-powered unit out of unbound units, is all. You need your opponent's permission to field an unbound list, and it's not exactly sporting to say "can I have your permission to field ten HQs?" in a casual setting, if your opponent's showed up to play a CAD. And in a pick-up game, I imagine an opponent just saying "...no."

I play mostly battleforged, but I've played against plenty of themed unbound lists and it's a lot of fun. As unbound isn't universally accepted, though, I'm wondering whether it's been tried in the context of a pick-up game which I imagine would have to be battleforged. Anyway, what do you find are the achilles' heels of a unit like this? In my head, I'm picturing it having trouble against something like a Wolfstar or maybe psychic shenanigans, or maybe just not being able to kill small units fast enough to make back its points. That and sinking half your points into one unit might leave the rest of the army a bit lacking...what do you use to back them up?

I totally and politely disagree about needing opponents permission for unbound. If you run cad, you get to reroll warlord traits and obsec. Unbound gets neither. It's a trade off GW created on purpose.

That being said, each gaming group is different and house rules abound. i'll respect someone else's rules when I'm in their house. unbound fixes a lot of issues created by codex creep, especially the new Eldar Codex.

Now personally I like to play Codex and Supplements only, never FW, escalation, Apocolypse units in a regular game. I'm happy to include those in Apocalypse games. That also happens to be the house rules where I play so it works out pretty well. Unbound fixes OP units. An equal points cost of MSU DeffKoptas will kill a WraithKnight.

I am very happy to see the Stompa in the Codex.

You need your opponents permission to play in general lol. It's up to them if they want to face an Unbound list, a balanced one or one that spams Windriders/Flyrants/Riptides, etc.

I personally don't play against Unbound lists and in general, my opponents haven't ever gone unbound, we all feel command benefits are too good to not include.

 Frozocrone wrote:
You need your opponents permission to play in general lol. It's up to them if they want to face an Unbound list, a balanced one or one that spams Windriders/Flyrants/Riptides, etc.

I personally don't play against Unbound lists and in general, my opponents haven't ever gone unbound, we all feel command benefits are too good to not include.

Okay but would you NOT play someone's unbound list? If so, why?

Personally I'd only play against Unbound if the person was new or had limited models with them. The prospect of someone filling their points with Riptides, Wraithknights or equilavalents just put me off.

Sure, I too could just have an army of Flyrants, but it would feel wrong to me. If I spam, I like paying the troops tax (lol Mucolids though) just to make it a bit fairer. What I really like, are the command benefits. Objective Secured has won me too many games for me to not include, as well as the Command Traits for Nid formations and Hive Fleet (forget name but you can re-roll IB)

Nothing against you and if you like playing against or with unbound lists then fair play to you, this is just a personal thing to me.

Sure no problem I know I'm in the minority by far it's just that Unbound solves problems like WraithKnights much better than so many discussions on Dakka right now about banning Range D or -1 to damage tables or all this other overly complicated stuff. It's in the Main Rulebook. It's intended. If someone wants to bring 5 WraithKnights or Riptides Lol they can wade through endless Grots and Mek Gunz.

Whut? whers me thumpin' stick this aint no democratzy, cunsule nofin, im da boss 'ere

couldn't resist gathering a council is so not the ork way.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Sure no problem I know I'm in the minority by far it's just that Unbound solves problems like WraithKnights much better than so many discussions on Dakka right now about banning Range D or -1 to damage tables or all this other overly complicated stuff. It's in the Main Rulebook. It's intended. If someone wants to bring 5 WraithKnights or Riptides Lol they can wade through endless Grots and Mek Gunz.

How does unbound solve balance issues like the WK? I don't see it.

WAAC players can abuse either system and spam OP units.

What you seem to be referring to is using unbound to list tailor, which is not a counter to imbalance, but is rather a symptom of it.

At the moment it seems that ork are best run using formations + a CAD detachment.

Green tide, bullyboyz, blitzbrigade are all decent, add them to a force with lots of mek gunz and you are good to go.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
Whut? whers me thumpin' stick this aint no democratzy, cunsule nofin, im da boss 'ere

couldn't resist gathering a council is so not the ork way.

Unlike the usual warboss's, Ghazzy delegates duties to his hand picked lieutenants, he's the epitome of Orkiness and a Prophet of Gork and Mork receiving communications from them directly. He's a genius by human standards and continues to confound the Imperium's army of tacticians. A lot of what he does would seem unOrky to those players who hang on to the exact misconceptions the fluff says the Imperium and other races continue to make about the Orks despite that all his decisions and actions are driven by the visions of Ork gods. The text says multiple times that the other races misconceptions of the Orks are erroneous. Ork fluff isn't based on the fluff of others whose fluff and misconceptions are to flavour their own personality and how they view the Orks. No need to advise people to drop entire formations and units and such based on this skewed idea of what is or isn't Orky. Ghazzy's Council is perfectly fine and Orky. He's not running just one Waaaaagh! btw, he's running 2 atm and making plans to go boost a 3rd Waaaaaaagh! Thanks to Gork and Mork he telepathically communicates to his officers in different star systems in real time. It's flat out impossible to do his Great Waaaagh! alone.

Once Orkimedes perfects his latest tellyporta project, Ghazzy will have tellaportation ability that allows him to cross the galaxy in an instant without the Warp so that he can jump around star systems to keep giving directions to various officers in various Waaaaaaagh! Not too surprised Orkimedes is #1 on the list for Imperium's Assasin bureau. If successful the Orks will have a means to travel the galaxy that outstrips all other methods the other races use. Don't underestimate these guys.

What are some ideas for optimum use of the Great Waaagh detachment? I was thinking something like this:
HQs- Grotsnik, Warboss with BBP
Troops- Gretchin (DS Grots anyone?), maybe one big Boyz squad for Grotsnik
Elites- 5 man Tankbusta Squads and maybe 1-2 bigger or more expensive squads to put your fearless guys in
Fast Attack- 3 solo koptas or some buggies
Heavy Support- Mek Gunz, vehicles

I feel like people trashed this force org chart because it hurts ork mob rule, but I think this might be a good way to avoid mob rule entirely. Min squads don't benefit anyway (unless they're Nobz) so I feel like you can take advantage of that with the expanded elite slot to take more Bustas. Mob rule is often bad even when it's passed, and this list forces you to avoid it.
(Maybe Grukk would also fit here for his useful warlord trait. His Rippin Krew could be used for more DS prescence, but the units aren't very good overall, so probably avoid. They could have some use if used alongside other units.)

The Imperial Answer wrote:
They could perhaps be competative if you bring enough of them or in lower point games.

I notice the Waaagh! Ghazghkull Dreadmob can fit into a 1500 point game quite easily (but its the entire army of itself).


But ideally the Green Tide and Dreadmobs both rely on your opponent not bringing enough to counter you ideally.

If someone is expecting them then they both have the potential to fall apart pretty easily.

Going back to this old post, I also think orks walkers work only if they are numerous,. Even with the meta being heavy At, ther is a chance that the number of dread is too much for the opponent. (adding kff and Meks will help though)
They are no slower than the green tide, we should play them like that.

I was wondering everyone's thoughts on running a Big Mek on bike with the Mega Force Field in a Speed Freek list?

I'm starting to mull this over now with the new Eldar D-scythes, in addition to Tau markerlights and just general proliferation of Ignores Cover stuff, and am trying to determine if the points are worth it versus a 2nd painboy on bike.

This would alter how i run my bikes quite a bit, if i take the painboy and big mek then I'll run a 15 bike deathstar with Zhadsnark.
If i take 2 painboys then I'll probably have Zhad in a 10-12 strong mob with one painboy and a second 10-12 strong mob with the other.

I don't see many people taking the big mek on bike and was just wondering if maybe the new Eldar can push him from situational to a viable buff to a bike list.

Sure, nothing wrong with that. Can even send that mek on a bike to join a unit of Deffkoptas to give them a save too. It'll take a little bit of kit bashing though.

 PipeAlley wrote:

Okay but would you NOT play someone's unbound list? If so, why?

The BRB says "players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use." It's even in bold, so you know they're super serious, for real you guys. I and most other people I know interpret this to mean your opponent has to agree that unbound lists are acceptable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCupcakeCowboy wrote:
I was wondering everyone's thoughts on running a Big Mek on bike with the Mega Force Field in a Speed Freek list?

I'm starting to mull this over now with the new Eldar D-scythes, in addition to Tau markerlights and just general proliferation of Ignores Cover stuff, and am trying to determine if the points are worth it versus a 2nd painboy on bike.

This would alter how i run my bikes quite a bit, if i take the painboy and big mek then I'll run a 15 bike deathstar with Zhadsnark.
If i take 2 painboys then I'll probably have Zhad in a 10-12 strong mob with one painboy and a second 10-12 strong mob with the other.

I don't see many people taking the big mek on bike and was just wondering if maybe the new Eldar can push him from situational to a viable buff to a bike list.

I think a lot will depend on how you organize the rest of your army. Orks work best by threat overload, just having so many things on the table that your opponent can't kill all of them. Deathstars work if they're backed up by a bunch of similarly scary stuff so that your opponent has to divide his firepower. I'd be worried about deep-striking S D flamers ruining your day since you don't get FNP against D weapons. I prefer MSU mini-deathstars with a horde of boyz to run interference...but give it a try and let us know how it works out!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/647132.page#7804194
List I came up with that has MFF Mek and utilizes Great Waaagh Detachment. All advice is welcome.

On the note of Grot Tanks can those be used as your 1 Elites for the Waaagh! Ghazghkull formation ?

I notice Grot Tanks are an Elites choice if one of your HQs is a Bigmek.


Also I notice Weirdboy staff has the "Force" rule on it and adds 2 to his Strength.

How useful would this be if he were able to get "Hammerhand" off on himself before a fight (Strength 10?) and piled in with a Warboss, a Nob (with a Waaagh! Banner boosting Weapon Skill) and some other Boyz to attack something like a Trygon or a Squiggoth ?

I think i have discovered a VERY competitive and viable spam list for orks

this is purely for competitive games (dont be a and bring this if its just a friendly)

Any multiple of this (using CAD or Ork horde detachment. Max 6 copies with 2 ork horde detachments which could come up to 3k points on its own)

Here it is:

Ork warboss with mega armour and boss pole
mek (small one that you can take with every HQ)
15 boyz, nob with power klaw
battlewagon with 2 rokkits and ram

so, 1 unit for 370 points. that leaves 30 spare per duplicate (assuming each is 400) for upgrades like da lucky stick, more rokkits, more boyz to fill the wagon or more rokkits for the wagon.

I used 2 of these this weekend against my friend who had dark angels. One copy had lucky stick and the other had da finkin kap.

what i killed with 2 copies at 2k points:
------- a 600 point tank
------- a rhino
------- 5 tacs
------- las pred
------- 1 terminator (only 1 left in squad when reached)

casualties taken as a result of the battle
------- 3 boyz
------- 1 hull point on a wagon that was repaired the next turn by a mek boy.

if thats not powerful, then i dont know what is.

you get a TONNE of power klaw attacks that your opponent simply cant snipe out because the mek boy will accept any challenges. this unit can literally take on anything in the game (except perhaps flyer spam, which is why i always max out rokkits if possible on the wagons and maybe even in the squad)



game strat at 2k:

5 of these units, one with CAD and another with ork horde detachment.

turn 1: move 12" in move phase and another 6" in shooting phase towards enemy.

turn 2: move 6", disembark 6", fire all weapons at vehicles that can be assaulted or their contents assaulted, proceed to charge everything. you should be 18" from your opponents table edge, and so there should be several things within charge range assuming they are not camping literally everything on their board edge, in which case, dont disembark, simply move another 12" forward. on turn 3 you will be in assault range of literally everything no problem if you havent been turn 2 (which you should be in 99% of cases)

your opponent probably wont be able to take out 5 battlewagons. And yes, i have thought about taking the formation which allows 5 scouting battlewagons, which basically guarantees a turn 2 charge with everything, but most tournaments only allow 2 detachments, and you would need 3 if you want the wagon formation AND 5 warbosses.

this is simply an opinion of mine that i am sharing, feel free to comment on it and argue openly

look forward to hearing your views!

Sounds fun. Do you line them up together so there is just a wall of AV14 coming at them?

Would go Blitz Brigade if 3+ detachments are allowed though.

I also don't think you need to worry about Flyers, particulary if you go first and get in combat T2. WAAAAAAGH

 Frozocrone wrote:
Sounds fun. Do you line them up together so there is just a wall of AV14 coming at them?

Would go Blitz Brigade if 3+ detachments are allowed though.

I also don't think you need to worry about Flyers, particulary if you go first and get in combat T2. WAAAAAAGH

you could do that, but as long as you use cover, you could spread them out, and your opponent will still have a hard time taking out the wagons. especially if you get the strategic trait that makes it night fighting and gives your force night vision haha

Where are these formations coming from? Dataslates, forgeworld? Really should try to keep tabs on them better...

Can someone help me calculate probability?

I want to know the likelihood of getting the 3rd Strategic Warlord trait, assuming that I A. Have the Finkin' Kap, and B. Can re-roll one or both of my Warlord traits due to being in a CAD.

My plan is to take a Warboss with said item, in a battlewagon, alongside 2 other units also in battlewagons, and then infiltrate them. Possibly outflank them, depending on the level of firepower the opponent has.

I've been training with my Green Tide for ATC.

It has been an interesting experience. Eldar can now take away the ability to run with the Tide which is devastating.

Also, I keep running into invisibility, rerollable 2+ saves, or Guardsmen with Rerollable 4++ that can effectively tarpit the tide. I never thought the tide would be something easily tarpitted, but I wonder if anyone has advice for dealing with those situations.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Can someone help me calculate probability?

I want to know the likelihood of getting the 3rd Strategic Warlord trait, assuming that I A. Have the Finkin' Kap, and B. Can re-roll one or both of my Warlord traits due to being in a CAD.

My plan is to take a Warboss with said item, in a battlewagon, alongside 2 other units also in battlewagons, and then infiltrate them. Possibly outflank them, depending on the level of firepower the opponent has.

its 55% ish with both re rolls

you would need to use nobz or meganobz then

i would infiltrait 18" away, only gets you 6" closer tho and you still cant charge on the first turn. is it worth basing your whole strat on this? maybe

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Can someone help me calculate probability?

I want to know the likelihood of getting the 3rd Strategic Warlord trait, assuming that I A. Have the Finkin' Kap, and B. Can re-roll one or both of my Warlord traits due to being in a CAD.

My plan is to take a Warboss with said item, in a battlewagon, alongside 2 other units also in battlewagons, and then infiltrate them. Possibly outflank them, depending on the level of firepower the opponent has.

Probability is easiest when calculating how often you don't get it. So the chance of not getting it with your first trait is 5/6, and with the second 4/5. The chance of not getting it is therefore 2/3 (5/6 x 4/5), so the chance of getting it is 1/3.

Now, I THINK this bit will be right as well, but I no longer study maths. A re-roll will effectively give you another chance to exactly the same, i.e. another chance of the above. The only instance where you don't get it is where you don't roll it both times, if that makes sense. So the chance of not getting it at all is 2/3 x 2/3 which is 4/9. Therefore the chance of getting it is 5/9, i.e. about 56%

I'm pretty sure that's right, but, if anything, I've underestimated the increase in probability provided by a re-roll, so if I'm wrong, it's likely to be higher. Hope it helps anyway!

 The Shadow wrote:
Where are these formations coming from? Dataslates, forgeworld? Really should try to keep tabs on them better...

the ghazkull supplement


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Can someone help me calculate probability?

I want to know the likelihood of getting the 3rd Strategic Warlord trait, assuming that I A. Have the Finkin' Kap, and B. Can re-roll one or both of my Warlord traits due to being in a CAD.

My plan is to take a Warboss with said item, in a battlewagon, alongside 2 other units also in battlewagons, and then infiltrate them. Possibly outflank them, depending on the level of firepower the opponent has.

Probability is easiest when calculating how often you don't get it. So the chance of not getting it with your first trait is 5/6, and with the second 4/5. The chance of not getting it is therefore 2/3 (5/6 x 4/5), so the chance of getting it is 1/3.

Now, I THINK this bit will be right as well, but I no longer study maths. A re-roll will effectively give you another chance to exactly the same, i.e. another chance of the above. The only instance where you don't get it is where you don't roll it both times, if that makes sense. So the chance of not getting it at all is 2/3 x 2/3 which is 4/9. Therefore the chance of getting it is 5/9, i.e. about 56%

I'm pretty sure that's right, but, if anything, I've underestimated the increase in probability provided by a re-roll, so if I'm wrong, it's likely to be higher. Hope it helps anyway!

yes, i got the same, 5/9.

did 5/9 X 5/9 X 4/5 X 4/5

Thanks guys! I study law - not so good with the maths biz.

So, a roughly 56% chance, and it's not like the other Strat traits are bad necessarily...I like it!

The plan is to use it as a sort of poor-mans blitz brigade with 3 battlewagons instead of 5, so outflanking rather than trying to sneak closer. Of course there's the contingent risks that come along with that; they might not all turn up at the same time (in fact they probably won't), or on the same side.

You guys are close with the math. A re-roll actually nets you the "original" amount multiplied by the chance to "fail". So for example, twin linked BS 2 ( my favorite example) is (1/3) + ((2/3)*(1/3).

Also, you guys are close with 56%, but it's not actually a 2/3 chance to not get it for each roll, it's (5/6) * (5/6), but you totally have the methodology right. Anyhow, it ends up being roughly 52%.
1 - ( (5/6) * (5/6) * (5/6) * (5/6) )

/end math rant
Sorry that took so long, I kinda like math



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the easiest way to calculate things with a re-roll is to do 1-(probability of failing the first roll and the second roll).

So back to the BS 2 example, it would be 1 - ((2/3)*(2/3)).
So, 5/9.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Grotzookas, don't forget the Grotzookas. When I finish my collection and put together my diorama I also want grots in all forms so the Grot Tanks are on my list of things to get. Mass Tank Shock across a wide tank line....oh yeah.

I tried that once. The opponent insisted all the grot tanks have to tank shock the exact same place and collide or some gak.

I mean seriously, someone brings some sweet as grot tanks and the other guy has to try and gak it up with rules lawyering.

Hunam0001 wrote:
You guys are close with the math. A re-roll actually nets you the "original" amount multiplied by the chance to "fail". So for example, twin linked BS 2 ( my favorite example) is (1/3) + ((2/3)*(1/3).

Also, you guys are close with 56%, but it's not actually a 2/3 chance to not get it for each roll, it's (5/6) * (5/6), but you totally have the methodology right. Anyhow, it ends up being roughly 52%.
1 - ( (5/6) * (5/6) * (5/6) * (5/6) )

/end math rant
Sorry that took so long, I kinda like math



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the easiest way to calculate things with a re-roll is to do 1-(probability of failing the first roll and the second roll).

So back to the BS 2 example, it would be 1 - ((2/3)*(2/3)).
So, 5/9.

I'm just curious here, I don't insist that I'm right by any means. I calculate the odds at 66%.
The way I view it, is you have 4 rolls to get the trait you want. You don't really need to multiply the odds by if you fail to get it, because you won't be rerolling if you succeed.

Example: You roll for the warlord trait (1/6), you fail. You reroll to try and get the trait (1/6), you fail. You try with your second roll (1/6), you fail. You try with your re-roll (1/6) [sidenote: what happens if you get the same trait as you had the first time? I thought there wasn't a second reroll...].

So overall you have 4 chances at 1/6 odds which is 2/3 or 66%.

After being frustrated for a very long time with my boyz being clobbered again and again last night, I tried a new tactic, which has already been posted elsewhere, but I can't say it enough. Megaboss with DLS and a painboy is SO STRONG. Talk about taking hits for the team, this guy shrugs off everything. I highly recommend this with some MANz right next to him to do "Look Out, Sir". If this doesn't get your boyz across the table, I don't know what will.