Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The 4th ed catachan codex had a lot of diversity in both artwork and minis.

On a side note look through any of FFG's Only War books and you'll see pretty good representation of all genders and races.

I think one reason it's hard to achieve a certain degree of ethnic diversity in Guard units is that their facial features and/or hair types are often exaggeratedly European. I try to throw some diversity into my armies when it makes visual sense, but some Cadian and SM characters just end up looking like they're wearing blackface. That said, I'll still mess around with mixing and washes to make sure I don't seem to have an army of clones.

 Owain wrote:
I think one reason it's hard to achieve a certain degree of ethnic diversity in Guard units is that their facial features and/or hair types are often exaggeratedly European. I try to throw some diversity into my armies when it makes visual sense, but some Cadian and SM characters just end up looking like they're wearing blackface. That said, I'll still mess around with mixing and washes to make sure I don't seem to have an army of clones.

Honestly talking the faces that gw models usually have have no features that would make them definetely european. With a slight modification to the paint scheme they could aswell be far-east asian, indian or hispanic.

Most people are bald, crew cut, or just bearded.

Far from excessively European.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For clarification most IG and SM models have the hairstyles listed above.

Last i checked GW sold grey plastic you could paint however you wanted.

Salamanders are genetically dark skinned.

Paint an army of africans, asians, swedes, middle eastern, etc. Its a highly customizeable system when it comes to paint.

 Sienisoturi wrote:

 Owain wrote:
I think one reason it's hard to achieve a certain degree of ethnic diversity in Guard units is that their facial features and/or hair types are often exaggeratedly European. I try to throw some diversity into my armies when it makes visual sense, but some Cadian and SM characters just end up looking like they're wearing blackface. That said, I'll still mess around with mixing and washes to make sure I don't seem to have an army of clones.

Honestly talking the faces that gw models usually have have no features that would make them definetely european. With a slight modification to the paint scheme they could aswell be far-east asian, indian or hispanic.

Honestly GW faces usually don't have any defining caracteristics of any ethnicity, they are just very generically 'heroic scale human male'.

GW aren't racist, they just suck at realistic facial features.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Sienisoturi wrote:

 Owain wrote:
I think one reason it's hard to achieve a certain degree of ethnic diversity in Guard units is that their facial features and/or hair types are often exaggeratedly European. I try to throw some diversity into my armies when it makes visual sense, but some Cadian and SM characters just end up looking like they're wearing blackface. That said, I'll still mess around with mixing and washes to make sure I don't seem to have an army of clones.

Honestly talking the faces that gw models usually have have no features that would make them definetely european. With a slight modification to the paint scheme they could aswell be far-east asian, indian or hispanic.

Honestly GW faces usually don't have any defining caracteristics of any ethnicity, they are just very generically 'heroic scale human male'.

GW aren't racist, they just suck at realistic facial features.

Pretty much sums it up, never mistake incompetence for malice.

 Glasdir wrote:
and lets not forget that humaniod races like elves and eldar cannot be black becuase of genetics.

Okay so i am really very curious where this is coming from. Has GW actually come out and said "Eldar do not have melanin and thus are all white"? I am pretty sure WFB does not have the genetics of the elves discussed in length, nor their skin tone

 General Kroll wrote:
Anyway, like the thread title says. It's a sensitive issue which is probably why GW avoid it.

Not including black characters can be a controversial decision. But having a bunch of miniature painted as black in the middle of miniatures painted as white? I certainly cannot see why anyone would ever feel the need to complain about that.

Also painting black seems easy to me. I have never tried painting white skin though, I went from my blue and green skinned lizardmen to my black sisters of battle to my blue-skinned (again) trollbloods.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Anyway, like the thread title says. It's a sensitive issue which is probably why GW avoid it.

Not including black characters can be a controversial decision. But having a bunch of miniature painted as black in the middle of miniatures painted as white? I certainly cannot see why anyone would ever feel the need to complain about that.

Also painting black seems easy to me. I have never tried painting white skin though, I went from my blue and green skinned lizardmen to my black sisters of battle to my blue-skinned (again) trollbloods.

Any tips for someone thinking of adding a few black guys to their army?

 General Kroll wrote:
Any tips for someone thinking of adding a few black guys to their army?

It has been a while since I painted some Sisters, but iirc I used bestial brown, then some brown ink, highlighted with bestial brown again, maybe some extra highlight with some yellow added to the brown, and done. Not that hard, really.

I've heard justifications that marines are all one race as they are recruited from the same world, however that doesn't make sense for some worlds should be as diverse as earth. Also (I'm completely making this up mostly so feel free to call me on my shshenanigans) but space marines look like their primarchs so perhaps they their skins pigment change when implanted with their gene seed to match their primarch's. If that were the case perhaps we should request more diversity amongst the Primarchs.

 chazz huggins wrote:
I've heard justifications that marines are all one race as they are recruited from the same world, however that doesn't make sense for some worlds should be as diverse as earth. Also (I'm completely making this up mostly so feel free to call me on my shshenanigans) but space marines look like their primarchs so perhaps they their skins pigment change when implanted with their gene seed to match their primarch's. If that were the case perhaps we should request more diversity amongst the Primarchs.

Their skin does not change, possibly except for Salamanders.

For example, in the Ultramarines books, Uriel Ventris' ship captain is an Astartes, and has brown skin.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 chazz huggins wrote:
I've heard justifications that marines are all one race as they are recruited from the same world, however that doesn't make sense for some worlds should be as diverse as earth. Also (I'm completely making this up mostly so feel free to call me on my shshenanigans) but space marines look like their primarchs so perhaps they their skins pigment change when implanted with their gene seed to match their primarch's. If that were the case perhaps we should request more diversity amongst the Primarchs.

Their skin does not change, possibly except for Salamanders.

For example, in the Ultramarines books, Uriel Ventris' ship captain is an Astartes, and has brown skin.

Also there's Jonah Orion from DoW.

I deliberately omitted Dawn of War due to its... oddities.

For example, both times the Alpha Legion appear as antagonists, they use Goff tactics, which does not suit them very well.

Salamanders (who are the best damn chapter ever! )! Thats it! Also one lots of books have ebony skinned guardsmen.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I deliberately omitted Dawn of War due to its... oddities.

Are those oddities hiding in METAL BOXES? The cowards! The fools! Dawn of War is totally canon, and marines actually do pop up in the middle of their squad like magic .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I deliberately omitted Dawn of War due to its... oddities.

Are those oddities hiding in METAL BOXES? The cowards! The fools! Dawn of War is totally canon, and marines actually do pop up in the middle of their squad like magic .

And Battle Sisters' nerve breaks because they are being shot by a burna (that barely scratches their armor).

Is that canon, too?

This thread is still alive?

The subject changed a little, so I figured I'd return.

It's not a sensitive issue unless you believe every vision of the future should be political correctness in space, American style. Censorship of sf and space fantasy, sounds pretty crazy. Uncle Joseph would be proud though.

I guess the reasons for such extreme measures can be very convincing. Racism is bad and racist ideas lead to ku klux klan and Hitler and people get killed. But then, didn't ideas of equality kill multiple times more people? Sure not poor black guys only Russian, Polish and Ukrainian pest but still. So why dont we all enjoy some freedom of speech and thought instead.

Now to real reasons for lack of racial diversity, and I'm quite sure it never had anything to do with painting. Questions to people who want more diversity in the Imperium:

- how would you convey the message of facist, oppresive empire if it was shown as full of care for woman equality, minorities etc. It's all about connotations and bald white men sell it best, also women should be either psycho nuns, baby factories or cannon fodder in IG at best because that's supposedly what oppresive empires do. Or did I miss something and Imperium became good guys already?

Really bald white men as a driving force for racist empire is fitting to 11 unless you take it all at face value.

- how would you retain the mood of the medieval knights/ medieval monks/ elite Romans in spaace while simultanously showing them as racialy diverse. Sure you could try but it would be just as ridiculous as black Heimdall (and I love Ezra as an actor tbh). Salamanders and white scars are nice cop outs and other chapters are not ruined by out of place and logic pc

- shouldn't we remove comissairs asap? Is slaneesh an insult to sexualy active people? Is it nice to compare football fans to mindless barbarians? Are DE a demonisation of sadomasochism community? Where are black eldar? Why is being gay a "terrible secret"?

- how would you like Imperium as flying little wooden churches full of power armoured gospel chapters spreading love and hope throughout the galaxy? 40k is super offensive to religion especialy Christianity and I'm sure your social sensibilities make you tremble in disgust just at the thought of people worshipping rotting corpses etc. Let's just contact Christian anti deflamation league or whatever their name is and get it all in, 40k galaxy a great place for everyone! Just as it was meant to be.

Also anyone is free (at leats atm) to make a cool black people only sf universe, or the one where jihad succeded and all white people are dead. I'd actualy love to play the latter if the designs were good, cyber camel riders in space power scimitars not to mention the helmets potential.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

- how would you retain the mood of the medieval knights/ medieval monks/ elite Romans in spaace while simultanously showing them as racialy diverse.

You could just... have them not all be of the same race and gender. Nobody is asking for so-and-so group to be portrayed in a positive light, all that anybody is wondering is why the models do such a poor job of showing that the Imperium has managed to crush racism and sexism through an ideology of general human supremacy. Armed forces that draw upon all of humanity should reasonably be expected to show this.

Is slaneesh an insult to sexualy active people?

Didn't GW replace realy nice slanesh models with realy ugly ones, like the deamonetts for example?

why the models do such a poor job of showing that the Imperium has managed to crush racism and sexism through an ideology of general human supremacy

Because it didn't crush anything? If the imperium looks anything like the fluff in necromunda books I downloaded, then sexism is alive and kicking. Sure women can have a rank, even a high one. But their rank is either based on the organisation they are in or they are freaking mutants, or both at the same time. Not that I don't like yolanda or jerichos mom and sister. They are fun characters, specialy his mom.

Rosebuddy wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

- how would you retain the mood of the medieval knights/ medieval monks/ elite Romans in spaace while simultanously showing them as racialy diverse.

You could just... have them not all be of the same race and gender. Nobody is asking for so-and-so group to be portrayed in a positive light, all that anybody is wondering is why the models do such a poor job of showing that the Imperium has managed to crush racism and sexism through an ideology of general human supremacy. Armed forces that draw upon all of humanity should reasonably be expected to show this.

You mean like all those women Roman legionnaires or black chivaleric knights? Or rather black girl monks? Ok.

Way to ruin some of the best references in 40k with ridiculous pc, if you ask me.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Uncle Joseph would be proud though.

Uncle Adolf is very proud of your fight for a black-people free future .

Plumbumbarum wrote:
- how would you convey the message of facist, oppresive empire if it was shown as full of care for woman equality, minorities etc.

I am sorry, are my zealous psychotics space nuns trying to kill anyone with different religious opinions or with mutations any less fascist because they are black? You have me confused here. Are you saying women cannot be fascists and black people cannot be oppressive?

Plumbumbarum wrote:
also women should be either psycho nuns, baby factories or cannon fodder in IG at best because that's supposedly what oppresive empires do.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but women can also be Inquisitors, or bad-ass assassins, or high-ranked officer in the guard, or in the mechanicus, or even High Lords, and this has literally always been the case. Now that you have lost every interest in the game, can I buy your models for a dollar?

Plumbumbarum wrote:
- how would you retain the mood of the medieval knights/ medieval monks/ elite Romans in spaace while simultanously showing them as racialy diverse.

Easily.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
- shouldn't we remove comissairs asap?

No, they are too cool for that. And Ciaphas Cain is a commissar, so NO WAY.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Is slaneesh an insult to sexualy active people?

No, and neither is she the goddess of sex.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Is it nice to compare football fans to mindless barbarians?

Orks are not football fans and never, ever speak about football. They can speak a bit about Blood Bowl, though, but mostly in fantasy.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Are DE a demonisation of sadomasochism community?

No, because they have basically no link to the sadomasochism community.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Why is being gay a "terrible secret"?

I have no idea what this is about.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
40k is super offensive to religion especialy Christianity and I'm sure your social sensibilities make you tremble in disgust just at the thought of people worshipping rotting corpses etc.

Actually that is why I play Sisters of Battle. Perfect representation of religion .

Plumbumbarum wrote:
or the one where jihad succeded and all white people are dead.

You do realize that the aim of Jihad is arguably about killing non-Muslims, but has never, ever, even in your wilder fantasies, been about killing white peoples?

Plumbumbarum wrote:
I'd actualy love to play the latter if the designs were good, cyber camel riders in space power scimitars not to mention the helmets potential.

Are you aware that there is at least one Arab-inspired Guard regiment?


Nice mix of all-flavored ignorance there, buddy .

Uncle Adolf is very proud of your fight for a black-people free future .

not realy. The thing is for him and for me, and anyone from our cultur circle there is no problem of black people , not in the past , not now and not in the future. It also ties in to why lacking the race difference is not seen as a problem in creating a sci fi fascist empire.

Are you aware that there is at least one Arab-inspired Guard regiment?

I though they were laurence of arabia inspired and british

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

- how would you retain the mood of the medieval knights/ medieval monks/ elite Romans in spaace while simultanously showing them as racialy diverse.

You could just... have them not all be of the same race and gender. Nobody is asking for so-and-so group to be portrayed in a positive light, all that anybody is wondering is why the models do such a poor job of showing that the Imperium has managed to crush racism and sexism through an ideology of general human supremacy. Armed forces that draw upon all of humanity should reasonably be expected to show this.

You mean like all those women Roman legionnaires or black chivaleric knights? Or rather black girl monks? Ok.

Way to ruin some of the best references in 40k with ridiculous pc, if you ask me.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Roman centurions didn't have plasma rifles, and chivalric knights didn't zip around with jet packs strapped to their backs. So whether or not they were women or black shouldn't matter either right?

If it does, why?

Hey mr. Hybrid Son of Oxayotl, for a post exposing my ignorance there's a lot of ignorance and reading comprehension failure

@Plumbumbarum

The «sensitive issue» pressed here is rather simple. From what the fluff has presented us, the Imperium isn't fascist or communist. Neither is the Imperium racist in the polygenist sense of the term (AKA the post 18th century racism frequently associated with skin colour), the Imperium isn't sexist either or at least not as it would have been defined by early feminist thinker besides Virgina Wolf. Many cultures in the Imperium may be sexist, fascist, communist, racist or any other variation of intolerence of your choice, but this isn't a trait shared by the Imperium at large.

The Imperium is a theocratie, ruled by a plutocratic and aristocractic regime. The «sensitive issue» is derived form the fact that the fluff exposes us to a very varied group of human beings. We know there is a lot of black and asian people in the Guard, Sisterhood and Adeptus Astartes, yet the otherwise excellent paint of GW aren't very good to make these skin colours and there isn't much tutorial on making non caucasian skin colour (there is one for black skin, but it could be improved). In the same vein, we know there is a lot of women in the Guard, yet there is no model for female Imperial Guard beside a few unique disconniued models (hopefully, other companie produce good proxie models for these).

If you don't have any problem with black, asian, women and other kind of people, why are you arguing against the fact that some people would like to have an easier time having some in their army?

Makumba wrote:
The thing is for him and for me, and anyone from our cultur circle there is no problem of black people , not in the past , not now and not in the future.

If you have no problem, why all the cries of “B-b-b-but PC is ruining 40k!!!!”

Makumba wrote:
I though they were laurence of arabia inspired and british

Does Al'rahem sound British-inspired to you?

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Hey mr. Hybrid Son of Oxayotl, for a post exposing my ignorance there's a lot of ignorance and reading comprehension failure

Good point, buddy.