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Plumbumbarum wrote:
And yet most people will associate it with a cosy minority caring society, while screaming white bald fanatics will be associated with a facist and racist one.

Only if "most people" are stupid and can't think of any fascist and racist society that doesn't conform to 2015 racism. If you see a picture of a screaming bald black fanatic next to a screaming bald white fanatic and they're chainswording a bunch of baby Eldar into bloody chunks and you think that it's a "cozy minority caring society", well, I'm not really sure what to say to you.

You used similar arguments for women equality in 40k but somehow FFG seems to have a different idea.

You do realize that the pictures I posted were from FFG, right?

Yes I do realise and that's why I used quote from there against your claims.

You can make up reasons for racism being alive and kicking in 40th millenium, wasnt there a book about genocide of natives to make place for new Imperial settlers? I find the idea that just external threat would eradicate racism in a world like that a bit naive tbh.

You can make up reasons for people being predominantly white as well, lack of UV, race war in the past or simply that there never were that many black people in the first place in that fictional, ridiculous universe of 40k.

You seem to think your idea about racism being non existant is some ultimate logical conclusion but it's just as made up as those above.

I dont think it's stupid to just go for visual mesaage in 40k instead of logical explanation. If you actualy look at some art the perspective is borked, slopes are impossible, details excessive and cabling exposed, then come the orkz and none of it makes sense. But it's still works on imagination, subconsciousness etc and why change somethng that works for out of place logical reasons.

Not to mention cosy and nice societies send people to war and you could make nasty pictures too. Then they get back to pretending they re nice and cosy and debating whether 10% differnce in women salary is just outrageous or already dark ages, loosing any cool in the process. The kind of nazi Germany/ Soviet Russia cool, entities that are responsible for millions of my countrymen killed and that put one of my grandfathers to a basement as "polnische Schwein, polnische Hund" and the other grandfather into soviet camp and below 40 kg of weigt at 175cm height with open wounds on entire body, mind you (yet you apparently think sexism is the offensive part of 40k heh).

@Plumbumbarum

Why don't you simply explain your preference for white males simply by stating your unease at the idea of white males being a minority (which they are on our planet)?

Plumb, just to be clear, are you against the inclusion of female miniatures in 40k, and the depiction of other skin colours in 40k art and studio figures?

 orkdwarf wrote:
Hope that clears everything up.

Haha. Oh. Wow.
I don't mean to sound ageist, but I assume you are very young. Wait, did that come out ageist?

 Psienesis wrote:
It's not changing the setting, it's simply changing the product line... and changing it back to what it was 20 years ago, at that, in some instances.

Setting=models+fluff, and in that message I was referring to the models.

This is an issue of the Fantasy genre in general. Warcraft, LoTR, Game of Thrones and so on are all about white people and their adventures. Even several of the fantasy races in these series are predominately or entirely Caucasian in appearance. I do not think there is a malicious intent on the author's (Or movie makers') part when they design the look of their worlds. They are just writing and/or designing their worlds from what they know and many of these writers are white people from predominately white societies.

There are no different races in 40k because after 30k years of breeding on earth, all the colors sort of just mixed together. Turns out that a lighter color was the majority.
Remember that in those ~28k years, there were probably countless wars, genocides, and all sorts of terrible gak could have happened. For all we know, Mexico was virus bombed by Canada in the year 12044. Then in 17032 a plague spread that turned everyone albino, and it took 500 years to pigment to return to the human race.

No races in 40k, because the bigger concern is different species. Paint your minis how you want, pretty sure there are dark skinned people in many books too.

 General Kroll wrote:
Ok, so I'm not being funny or anything, this is a genuine question, but why are there no black people in the 41st Millennium? I never see any models painted in darker shades, most are a pale white, with some a healthy pink at best.

Have I missed a memo or something?

The 41st millennium isn't racist: everyone is mistreated, exploited and killed in equal measure in the Imperium.

"Welcome to the 41st millenium where you are all equally worthless.

Seriously though, in the 40k setting whole planets are exterminated and entire populations killed because they read the wrong book or didn't bow quick enough in a ceremony. Imagine if one of their stories happened to have this happen to a bunch of non-whites. You would have nutjobs screaming that GW is racist and threatening lawsuits...

 gwarsh41 wrote:
There are no different races in 40k because after 30k years of breeding on earth, all the colors sort of just mixed together. Turns out that a lighter color was the majority.
Remember that in those ~28k years, there were probably countless wars, genocides, and all sorts of terrible gak could have happened. For all we know, Mexico was virus bombed by Canada in the year 12044. Then in 17032 a plague spread that turned everyone albino, and it took 500 years to pigment to return to the human race.

No races in 40k, because the bigger concern is different species. Paint your minis how you want, pretty sure there are dark skinned people in many books too.

Glavians are Black and, according to Abnett, the best pilots the Imperium can field.

Moreso, with 99%+ of the Imperium's population never leaving the planet of their birth, all those people living on desert worlds are, in the course of 10-20,000 years, going to be rather dark-skinned, even if the initial colony that settled the world was entirely, 100% Caucasian (which, btw, includes Arabs). Environmental evolution alone, across the million-plus planets the Imperium controls, would ensure ethnic diversity.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
There are no different races in 40k because after 30k years of breeding on earth, all the colors sort of just mixed together. Turns out that a lighter color was the majority.
Remember that in those ~28k years, there were probably countless wars, genocides, and all sorts of terrible gak could have happened. For all we know, Mexico was virus bombed by Canada in the year 12044. Then in 17032 a plague spread that turned everyone albino, and it took 500 years to pigment to return to the human race.

No races in 40k, because the bigger concern is different species. Paint your minis how you want, pretty sure there are dark skinned people in many books too.

Humanity has lived on worlds with differing climates for over 10,000 years. I believe that is sufficient time for differences in skin color to occur.

 CT GAMER wrote:
The 41st millennium isn't racist: everyone is mistreated, exploited and killed in equal measure in the Imperium.

"Welcome to the 41st millenium where you are all equally worthless.

Tell that to the mutants and abhumans. They missed the memo.

 CT GAMER wrote:
Seriously though, in the 40k setting whole planets are exterminated and entire populations killed because they read the wrong book or didn't bow quick enough in a ceremony. Imagine if one of their stories happened to have this happen to a bunch of non-whites. You would have nutjobs screaming that GW is racist and threatening lawsuits...

Suuuuuure. Hey, remember when Shadow Warrior was in trouble because the main characters butchers a bunch of Asian dudes? Oh, wait, that never happened! Because it made perfect sense in the story and what obviously not racist. Maybe people are not as stupid as you make them out to be.

My LGS regularly sees 40K players from a wide variety of backgrounds. And yes I've met plenty of women who play 40k.

And again if 40K is supposed to be solely bald white people, how do you care to explain the prominent roles of the Tallarn Desert Raiders, White Scars, Salamanders and the general diversity seen in the more recent (and even older artwork) for Catachans and Cadians?

Part of the point of 40K is that its supposed to show that all of humanity's major civilizations, not just specific cultures, tend to be pretty bigoted and oppressive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:
The 41st millennium isn't racist: everyone is mistreated, exploited and killed in equal measure in the Imperium.

"Welcome to the 41st millenium where you are all equally worthless.

Tell that to the mutants and abhumans. They missed the memo.

 CT GAMER wrote:
Seriously though, in the 40k setting whole planets are exterminated and entire populations killed because they read the wrong book or didn't bow quick enough in a ceremony. Imagine if one of their stories happened to have this happen to a bunch of non-whites. You would have nutjobs screaming that GW is racist and threatening lawsuits...

Suuuuuure. Hey, remember when Shadow Warrior was in trouble because the main characters butchers a bunch of Asian dudes? Oh, wait, that never happened! Because it made perfect sense in the story and what obviously not racist. Maybe people are not as stupid as you make them out to be.

More recent Ogryn fluff implies that Ogryns are only kept around because of how damn useful they are. There is an FFG book that describes how one Ratling planet is a pleasure planet, with its populace being enslaved and forced into indentured servitude by the nobles on a regular basis. Abhumans are treated abominably and only kept around because they serve a purpose (some more than others.)

This could provide some rather disturbing implications for the real disappearance of the squats...

 Blacksails wrote:
Plumb, just to be clear, are you against the inclusion of female miniatures in 40k, and the depiction of other skin colours in 40k art and studio figures?

No. I love sisters of battle, an odd female inquisitor is fine. Women also fit great to Eldar and Dark Eldar.

I also have nothing against White Scars or Salamanders. Catachans could become designated regiment for black people too for example both in art and studio models.

I'm against making every faction racialy diverse and gender balanced and showing Imperium as a diverse society. It's imo good as it is, crazy white bald men leading the pack.

In fact an odd woman shown as Cadian general or a screaming bald black Blood Angel somewhere in the codex wouldnt be the end of the world but it's a slippery slope of tolerance, equality, awerness and social justice heh so it's imo better to leave it as is. We could end with black DKoK Vostroyan or Valhallans, women Dark Angels, racialy diverse Eldar or male Sisters dulling the visual messages of 40k even further.

In short Im against adding more women and other skin colours into 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:
@Plumbumbarum

Why don't you simply explain your preference for white males simply by stating your unease at the idea of white males being a minority (which they are on our planet)?

Stop exposing me like that, it's exposist.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:
The 41st millennium isn't racist: everyone is mistreated, exploited and killed in equal measure in the Imperium.

"Welcome to the 41st millenium where you are all equally worthless.

Tell that to the mutants and abhumans. They missed the memo.

 CT GAMER wrote:
Seriously though, in the 40k setting whole planets are exterminated and entire populations killed because they read the wrong book or didn't bow quick enough in a ceremony. Imagine if one of their stories happened to have this happen to a bunch of non-whites. You would have nutjobs screaming that GW is racist and threatening lawsuits...

Suuuuuure. Hey, remember when Shadow Warrior was in trouble because the main characters butchers a bunch of Asian dudes? Oh, wait, that never happened! Because it made perfect sense in the story and what obviously not racist. Maybe people are not as stupid as you make them out to be.

Some aren't. And many are

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
My LGS regularly sees 40K players from a wide variety of backgrounds. And yes I've met plenty of women who play 40k.

And again if 40K is supposed to be solely bald white people, how do you care to explain the prominent roles of the Tallarn Desert Raiders, White Scars, Salamanders and the general diversity seen in the more recent (and even older artwork) for Catachans and Cadians.

I touched on that multiple times including my first post in this thread. They're fine cop outs for gamers who want to play a non white space marine for example also exactly the reason we dont need more diversity, or diversity everywhere.

Btw what do you mean diverity in more recent Cadians artwork? I dont think there was a single woman or non white in the AM codex or in fact any codex of late. Catachan I think there was one dude who had either a light shade of black skin or a strong tan, I couldnt decide afair.

Most Codex art is recycled. Again look at ANY of the only war books, particularly the main rulebook, where 75% of the art is commissioned.

Your weird phobia of diversity is kind of off putting.

Is it as off putting as potential ebony Space wolves and wolfettes though.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Is it as off putting as potential ebony Space wolves and wolfettes though.

...No? I mean, why would it be?

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Is it as off putting as potential ebony Space wolves and wolfettes though.

Yeahhh, sorry, this is just straight up racism.

@plumbumbarum

I don't want to sound insulting and even less threatening to you with my last question (and even less with this one), but from what you have been writting on this thread, you seem to suffer from a certain form of xenophobia and sexism we sometimes call «closet bigotery». It's not a crime, neither is it specifically insulting to the victims of your bigotery since it's unintentionnal from your part (but it's still disrespectful).

Usually «closet bigotery» express itself through ignorance, social prejudices and social norms and traditions. A Space Wolf woudn't be less feral wild and viking-like because he would look like a black men or asian men. The essence of the Space Wolfs isn't racial. It's in a culture (completly fictionnal).

In the same fashion, a black women commissar leading a charge of Imperial guardsmen mostly made of hyspanic and asian with female grenadiers and in toes with some polynesian looking support trooper, an old couple and six teenagers one of them with a missing limb really looks like humanity vallient and hopeless last stand against the darkest creatures of the galaxy. The same image, but only with white men in their 30's or 40's (an odd age for combat unit soldiers, since the average is around 18 to 22) looks like some occidental country invading yet another corner of the world. Yet, this was the cover for the 5th eddition Imperial Guard codex and let's not get into the debate that Cadian women actually represent about half of their soldiers or we will never be finish with this.

 CT GAMER wrote:
Some aren't. And many are

Well,explain Shadow Warrior getting absolutely no controversy to me.

epronovost wrote:
@plumbumbarum

I don't want to sound insulting and even less threatening to you with my last question (and even less with this one), but from what you have been writting on this thread, you seem to suffer from a certain form of xenophobia and sexism we sometimes call «closet bigotery». It's not a crime, neither is it specifically insulting to the victims of your bigotery since it's unintentionnal from your part (but it's still disrespectful).

Usually «closet bigotery» express itself through ignorance, social prejudices and social norms and traditions. A Space Wolf woudn't be less feral wild and viking-like because he would look like a black men or asian men. The essence of the Space Wolfs isn't racial. It's in a culture (completly fictionnal).

In the same fashion, a black women commissar leading a charge of Imperial guardsmen mostly made of hyspanic and asian with female grenadiers and in toes with some polynesian looking support trooper, an old couple and six teenagers one of them with a missing limb really looks like humanity vallient and hopeless last stand against the darkest creatures of the galaxy. The same image, but only with white men in their 30's or 40's (an odd age for combat unit soldiers, since the average is around 18 to 22) looks like some occidental country invading yet another corner of the world. Yet, this was the cover for the 5th eddition Imperial Guard codex and let's not get into the debate that Cadian women actually represent about half of their soldiers or we will never be finish with this.

"In the same fashion, a black women commissar leading a charge of Imperial guardsmen mostly made of hyspanic and asian with female grenadiers and in toes with some polynesian looking support trooper, an old couple and six teenagers one of them with a missing limb really looks like humanity vallient and hopeless last stand against the darkest creatures of the galaxy. The same image, but only with white men in their 30's or 40's (an odd age for combat unit soldiers, since the average is around 18 to 22) looks like some occidental country invading yet another corner of the world. Yet, this was the cover for the 5th eddition Imperial Guard codex and let's not get into the debate that Cadian women actually represent about half of their soldiers or we will never be finish with this."

The main problem with this however that I could see as the reason why people oppose it is that it takes the focus away from the action and grimdark and into the racial and gender relations.

Would a Fenrisian be more Eskimo in skin colour and body/face morphology? Trying to think about this purely in terms of adaptation

epronovost wrote:
@plumbumbarum

I don't want to sound insulting and even less threatening to you with my last question (and even less with this one), but from what you have been writting on this thread, you seem to suffer from a certain form of xenophobia and sexism we sometimes call «closet bigotery». It's not a crime, neither is it specifically insulting to the victims of your bigotery since it's unintentionnal from your part (but it's still disrespectful).

Usually «closet bigotery» express itself through ignorance, social prejudices and social norms and traditions. A Space Wolf woudn't be less feral wild and viking-like because he would look like a black men or asian men. The essence of the Space Wolfs isn't racial. It's in a culture (completly fictionnal).

In the same fashion, a black women commissar leading a charge of Imperial guardsmen mostly made of hyspanic and asian with female grenadiers and in toes with some polynesian looking support trooper, an old couple and six teenagers one of them with a missing limb really looks like humanity vallient and hopeless last stand against the darkest creatures of the galaxy. The same image, but only with white men in their 30's or 40's (an odd age for combat unit soldiers, since the average is around 18 to 22) looks like some occidental country invading yet another corner of the world. Yet, this was the cover for the 5th eddition Imperial Guard codex and let's not get into the debate that Cadian women actually represent about half of their soldiers or we will never be finish with this.

Usually when the women, the young, the sick/mutilated and the old are being depicted in battle its a sign the nation has lots its ability to supply able bodied men and is losing. Generally seen in the final stages of a conflict.

Also the Space Wolf culture may not exist, but it relies heavily on the "viking theme" which is usually blond and ginger white invaders. So yea a black viking will not be a common sight.

I think the issue many have missed is how many of the cultures that are popular in 40k are actually taken from white culture inspiration. I think Tallarn are the only ones who of our current selection that should feature middle easterners. The rest are taken from white cultures. So instead of complaining that there are no women, blacks or so on in a Praetorian army, instead ask for cultures that did originate from different lands to use as fluff instead of adding your current culture ideals to the cultures that have made the Imperial Guard what they are.

The 3rd edition Guard codex had regiments made up from different cultures. If you look at them all you can easily see what inspired them. From that image I gather 40k is a galaxy where each planet usually has its own race/culture type.

I would stop trying to shame him into being a bigot. He is simply saying that you guys want to add your cultural ideals into a world that relies on other cultural ideals for inspiration. It would be like demanding women in a Praetorian Guard force which is based around the British in Africa (like in the Zulu Movie). What you are effectively saying is you find the culture at the time upsetting and you want to change how it is portrayed in 40k fluff to fit your feels.

Instead of demanding that the inspiration for all these 40k ideas be changed, instead why not complain they dont include other cultures like they did with the Tallarn for the humans. Otherwise you are in a way trying to merge your own ideals with those cultures that inspired these writers. Like the Space Wolves having black people is very far from their cultural inspiration.

What people like you want is to fudge the cultures that make up 40k (vikings for example) and change them to fit your cultural views. I can see why people dont like that. It would be like demanding people paint their Sci Fi Zulu Guardsmen white, when they are blatantly taken from Zulu Inspiration. Or demanding that your Samurai Inspired Guardsmen need more Baltic Peoples. Its not a hard argument to understand really.

Closet bigot, straight racist and diversitophobic (ha I'm good at newspeak too), this is getting better and better.

nudibranch wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Is it as off putting as potential ebony Space wolves and wolfettes though.

Yeahhh, sorry, this is just straight up racism.

Yeah if you ignore all my earlier posts including the one 4 posts before the one you quoted.

Sorry, no. It has actualy nothing to do with racism but a lot to do with the fact that vikings were predominantly pale whitish white and even if you're wouldnt be bothered by black skinned future ones, why on earth would anyone introduce them? Is it insulting otherwise? This is really beyond me.

Congratulations on jumping the occasion to point a finger though. Remember face value ftw.

@epronvost

Being bothered by black skinned vikings pointlesly shoehorned into space fantasy setting is not closet bigotry, does not have to come from prejudice or ignorance. In my case it just comes from a fact that a black skined viking looks silly, just as I would look silly pretending to be a Maasai. I really, really see no disrespect in saying to a black skin person "sorry man you dont really look like a viking".

Do you know what is silly? Vikings riding wolves. Some Viking riding an antigrav sledge that is tracted by wolves.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Do you know what is silly? Vikings riding wolves. Some Viking riding an antigrav sledge that is tracted by wolves.

Yes, but so is shoehorning in a variety of genders into a theme based around white people. Instead ask for a chapter to be more represented of a differing culture.

There is a Space Marine chapter I saw once in GW fluff that are based of The Maori people in NZ. They had the moko designs on their army and everything. GW has all these cultures in the fluff to use, but instead the popular ones happen to be white or alien. (Oh gee, wonder why...)

So instead ask for the other cultures to be represented if you desire, dont simply demand the other ones change.

I am pretty sure thats all he is arguing for. Its what I prefer as well.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:
Some aren't. And many are

Well,explain Shadow Warrior getting absolutely no controversy to me.

Never heard of it.

So are you claiming that people/groups have never made weakly backed claims of perceived racism/racial bias in mass media and entertainment content(movies, TV, etc )?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Do you know what is silly? Vikings riding wolves. Some Viking riding an antigrav sledge that is tracted by wolves.

Except for the fact that norse mythology is full of them and it fits 10000x more than black skin, something rather associated with Africa. Not sure if that wasnt racist now though.