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How long was Kirby in charge............because his tenure encompasses a lot of the stuff people like and think of as the good old days. It seems easy to blame him for all of ills of the company, when he was in charge during a lot of the good stuff as well. Lot of selective memory happening here.

The great satan enabled your games, people.

Bryan Ansell would be the great Lord, of course.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
How long was Kirby in charge............because his tenure encompasses a lot of the stuff people like and think of as the good old days. It seems easy to blame him for all of ills of the company, when he was in charge during a lot of the good stuff as well. Lot of selective memory happening here.

The great satan enabled your games, people.

Bryan Ansell would be the great Lord, of course.

Livingston and Jackson would like a word...

Kirby is blamed for much, I know I've used his name in vain plenty of times, but the mistake makers are lower down the food chain than him. He was just too high up to be blamed for the design of this or the poor rules for that. Some rungs of upper middle management at Nottingham is where it's at if you want to play the blame game imo. We just use Kirby's name because it's easy to find and latch on to, but I honestly don't think he's had much clue about the creative side of the company for years.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
We just use Kirby's name because it's easy to find and latch on to, but I honestly don't think he's had much clue about the creative side of the company for years.

That doesn't work in the long term though, he can only hide behind 'lowly minions' for so long before he has to take command responsibility, particularly if he actually played the games that his company produced. GW has had about 15 years of shoveling out crap rules, he really should have noticed that.

If only market research wasn't otiose......

People still bought that crap in their masses. I think he did decent job of extracting money from the ever complaining.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
People still bought that crap in their masses.

Some people did but how many more would have stayed loyal customers if GW could be bothered putting effort towards rules design?

I used to spend vast amounts of money on GW (including most of my student loan.....) but now I spent all my toy solider money elsewhere and I have done so for years.

One has to ask was the success "because" or "in spite" of Kirby.

Kirby led a buyout that saved GW from going under. That's a fair certainty and to his credit.

He took the company public. Arguably better for those with their fingers already in the pie than the customer base or the creative integrity of the company.

I believe (I wasn't paying close attention at the time) that LOTR was more about serendipity than any real shrewd moves on the part of GW.

The years subsequent to Return Of The King have seen stagnation and decline, with a steadily increasing nose dive in the last 4 years or so.

There's really very little GW have done at the executive level I can see in a long, long time that one could point to and say yes, that, that was a smart and insightful thing to do.

How long is a "long long time"? 25 years? 10 years?

Here is Kirby's mini bio from the GW Investor Relations web page.

T H F Kirby (age 65), non-executive chairman. Tom Kirby joined Games Workshop in April 1986 as general manager and led the management buy-out in December 1991, becoming chief executive at that time. Between 1998 and 2000 he took on the role of non-executive chairman, returning to the role of chief executive in September 2000. He performed the role of chairman from December 2007 to January 2013 when he became chairman and acting CEO. Following the appointment of Kevin Rountree as CEO with effect from 1 January 2015, Tom became non-executive chairman of the Group. Prior to joining Games Workshop, Tom worked for six years for a distributor of fantasy games in the UK and was previously an inspector of taxes.

GW was floated on the stock exchange in 1994.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
How long is a "long long time"? 25 years? 10 years?

For me personally? Probably about 15-20 years.

I'm not sure Kirby's buyout saved the company from going under.

It's more that Ansell was fed up of being a businessman and seized the opportunity to sell out for wads of cash and set up a pure figure making company.

I would posit that although Kirby was certainly a problem, he could not have done all the damage on his own. There had to be higher ups who were either feeding or enabling the ideas, and who knows who is still running around there. It is clear though, there are other voices gaining volume and momentum inside, voices who remember the customers and not just the shareholders, and who don't treat the interests of the two as mutually exclusive.

Very interesting BOLS article going through the faulty pricing and detached decision making that went into AOS in pretty good detail - they make a good point that although to me the AoS system options/points were a very positive move, they add the sobering reminder that it was also one born of desperation, which I can believe too.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-the-rumormeister-speaks.html

Keep a steady hand on the rudder GW, you guys are smart enough to know what this community wants and needs obviously, address the gameplay and continue to do things that amount to discounted pricing, even if it is just on volume buys to start, and you will see brighter days I am sure.

Reminds my of what my dear state of Kansas has been going through under Brownback.

Back to gaming, I also hope this is a sign of things to come for GW. Their response to AoS was so unlike the company of old I'm still not sure if everyone thinks it will hold.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
I would posit that although Kirby was certainly a problem, he could not have done all the damage on his own. There had to be higher ups who were either feeding or enabling the ideas, and who knows who is still running around there. It is clear though, there are other voices gaining volume and momentum inside, voices who remember the customers and not just the shareholders, and who don't treat the interests of the two as mutually exclusive.

Very interesting BOLS article going through the faulty pricing and detached decision making that went into AOS in pretty good detail - they make a good point that although to me the AoS system options/points were a very positive move, they add the sobering reminder that it was also one born of desperation, which I can believe too.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-the-rumormeister-speaks.html

Keep a steady hand on the rudder GW, you guys are smart enough to know what this community wants and needs obviously, address the gameplay and continue to do things that amount to discounted pricing, even if it is just on volume buys to start, and you will see brighter days I am sure.

Obviously he didn't do everything by himself, but Kirby set the direction and promoted a monoculture that enabled groupthink leading to a big disconnect from general customer and marketing awareness in favour of accounting based thinking. This was successful in reducing costs and regaining profits, but very unsuccessful in promoting sales. Kirby can't be blamed for the early incompetence revealed by the Chapter House case, but he certainly can be blamed for creating a situation in which such incompetence was allowed to continue and be promoted until it became the basis for an expensive legal case. Kirby is an accountant, not a lawyer or a businessman.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm not sure Kirby's buyout saved the company from going under.

It's more that Ansell was fed up of being a businessman and seized the opportunity to sell out for wads of cash and set up a pure figure making company.

Have to find it, but Andy Chambers said in a interview a couple years ago, GW would have gone under without Kirby. He had a positive impact on the company early on taking it world wide. But he should have stepped down in early 2000. Heck if he had, we would probably be talking how things were better under him

Wasn't aware that Kirby was involved in writing crappy rules for the games.

Is there no end to this mans evil?

 silent25 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm not sure Kirby's buyout saved the company from going under.

It's more that Ansell was fed up of being a businessman and seized the opportunity to sell out for wads of cash and set up a pure figure making company.

Have to find it, but Andy Chambers said in a interview a couple years ago, GW would have gone under without Kirby. He had a positive impact on the company early on taking it world wide. But he should have stepped down in early 2000. Heck if he had, we would probably be talking how things were better under him

It's difficult to argue with the historical facts that once the IPO cash and the LoTR boom were gone, which covers the years 1994 to 2004, GW have been in serious decline in terms of sales.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Wasn't aware that Kirby was involved in writing crappy rules for the games.

Is there no end to this mans evil?

Much like your constant witty one liners, no.

If you mean did he put pen to paper or finger to key then no, obviously not. But most stories of how GW was under his leadership, notably in this millennium, illustrate a strong cult of personality where things were run very much according to his vision. Whether the poor rules were a result of a broader deemphasis leading to poor quality staff or the creation of an environment where the time and money wasn't provided to allow any better job to be done, we don't know. Or it may simply that Jervis was allowed too much freedom to implement his vision where dice rolls and tables rule all and player agency contributes nothing. Either way, there's an element of the quality of a company's product which can be attributed to its management.

I had a lovely chat with GW at their Facebook page yesterday about the 40k Chaos releases or the lack thereof. 'Eddie' was quite assuring that something will happen.
Now, like any Customer support, you always have to take it with a grain of salt - but hey. Customer Service that responds in the fashion they did isn't always the case.

We'll certainly return to the Traitor Legions and Chaos Space Marines in time.
Nothing is announced at the moment, but we'll let you know when we have any news on this page.

Thanks,
- Eddie

Having someone to speak to directly on the internet is the right track imho.

Well it certainly is a good sign that GW is engaging with the community more. It's pretty much expected nowadays that companies have some presence on social media and allow for some feedback which is good.

We'll just have to wait and see the quality of what they produce though.

I am very positive. I think they are releasing boxed sets that represent good value. More importantly for them, they are releasing games that allow you to constantly use their figures across a wide array of rule sets. I remember many times, getting together for WFHB and ending up playing Magic because it was so fast and easy to set up and play. Now you can do the same with some of the new games out.

I'm actually amazed hobbies like this are still around at all. Maybe I'm not interacting with the right people, but it seems like nobody my age wants to put in the time given all the instant gratification alternatives like video games.

Looking at recent events, I think they are back on the right track. They will not win me back, though, I am perfectly happy playing with the 5th Edition ruleset. Furthermore, companies like Kromlech make (imho) much nicer figures and when I compare third-party soldiers with GW's, I find the GW ones ugly. It didn't bother me in the past, as I have quite a collection of ancient miniatures, but I find the whole "Let's make bigger and bigger miniatures and forget the human-sized"-trend rather annoying. And when you have been around third-party figures for a while, you really spot the ridiculous dimensions of GW's miniatures (like oversized hands and heads).

I applaud the changes GW makes nowadays, they lost me but hope they will become succesful again for the people who enjoy their stuff. I spend my money at small miniature companies, like Heresy Miniatures, Kromlech and Maxmini (if the last one finally sends their KS). They have great stuff for my main armies (Nurgle Daemons and Rebel Grotz) and usually cheaper than GW, I feel better supporting the "Little Ones" than the "big, bad baddy"

As a long time Games Workshop fan boy.. I collected it since the late 80's that started all with Space Hulk. I played and loved most of their games over the years. How large.. I live in the Midwest of the United States and traveled to Nottingham for the single reason to see Warhammer world while traveling thru Europe.. Instead of Movie celebrities I have pictures with Jervis and the Perry Twins.. Collecting about every army and the ones I didn't, I would purchase army books of armies I didn't play just to keep up with my opponents. Then freely buy models that looked great but having nothing to do with the armies I collected.. Example was the Green Knight.. Great Model... don't play Britts..

But last year after a long happy marriage, they changed. End times and Age of Sigmar made me feel that they wanted a divorce and wanted to see other people. I was not happy but they were content of trying something new. We separated and I found other things to do, a year later they found out its very hard out there and now wanting me back. They are the ones that left.. Now it is a trust issue and going to be difficult to get me back because I found other loves.

I wrote that as a little bit of a joke.. but when AoS came out it really felt like a slap in the face. I actually had friends knowing I was a large fan send me emails and post on my face book, sympathetic on what Games Workshop did to warhammer.
When AoS first hit.. It reminded me of Epic of years past.. Epic was a small scale version of 40k and had become one of the 3 flag ship games. But GW decided they needed to over haul the game and killed it.. The game was no more.. you could no longer find players and most old players were happy to sale off their army for next to nothing.. Kind of what just happened with Age of Sigmar...

Other things Games Workshop started a strange price structure years ago.. Knowing certain models would sale better.. At one point the witch elves were around $90 for 10 models while other units where $45 for 10 models and with 8th edition rules at the time you need gigantic units to be able to compete.. . This caused me to be more selective in my purchases because my hobby fund was not getting any larger. For someone that would spend Thousands of dollars a year on just Games Workshop products, Now for 2016 only bought Deathwatch Overkill because I am a sucker for Space hulk

Now with the new President they are returning to social media and releasing FAQs. even adding point values to Age of Sigmar, but the sad truth of the matter is .. It is.. To little .. To late.. for me
I have moved on and things in the past that would easily pull money out of my wallet are now gone. Like a divorced couple.. we have a chance to get back together but currently it looks like you still need your free time.

Maybe this was the idea all along... kill the company so they can be more attractive for a buy out.. But for now.. I see Games Workshop is still in troubled waters..

GW has really turned it around in my opinion.

• Bringing back specialty games
• Licencing out tons of video games for GW (some are bad, but still so many options now) such as: Mordheim: City of the damned, Total War: Warhammer, BFG, Blood bowl and now Dawn of War 3
• The PRICES. Using The Flesh Eater Courts for AoS as an example: $180 USD for $280 USD of stuff. It's GREAT value.
• Free rules and community feedback
• Social media presence
• Free painting videos
• Outreach, support and conventions
• Everything moving to plastic (no new finecast sculpts)

Seriously. What a change from just 2 years ago. Bravo GW.

 SonOfSigvald wrote:
GW has really turned it around in my opinion.

• Bringing back specialty games
• Licencing out tons of video games for GW (some are bad, but still so many options now) such as: Mordheim: City of the damned, Total War: Warhammer, BFG, Blood bowl and now Dawn of War 3
• The PRICES. Using The Flesh Eater Courts for AoS as an example: $180 USD for $280 USD of stuff. It's GREAT value.
• Free rules and community feedback
• Social media presence
• Free painting videos
• Outreach, support and conventions
• Everything moving to plastic (no new finecast sculpts)

Seriously. What a change from just 2 years ago. Bravo GW.

Can you confirm the specialist games? Personally I would like to get into those, since AoS was a big disappointment to me and 40k (with AoS as well) has a high upkeep and buy-in cost that I am not too comfortable with right now when I feel I get more out of a purchase of the competitions' product.

Keep seeing credit for specialist games, except they've not released any yet and they could be reworked and terrible.

It's official, from GW themselves, Specialist Games was revived earlier this year and the initial products are already well under development, so far Blood Bowl confirmed... rumors of a new, 15mm Epic have been running around, and finally BFG seems like a pretty solid bet. I could just as easily say that they could be absolutely fekking amazing as you could that they will be terrible at this point, no evidence. Chances are though, from the way they have been describing it and the stated intentions they have, I don't think they will stray too far from the previous for games like bloodbowl. I think that will be a pretty safe bet -

180 for 280 worth of stuff is exactly what I was mentioning earlier, I understand they can't just drop the MSRP on individual kits for various business reasons, but offering volume bundles is a great, key way for them to get back in the game imho.

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:

 SonOfSigvald wrote:
GW has really turned it around in my opinion.

• Bringing back specialty games
• Licencing out tons of video games for GW (some are bad, but still so many options now) such as: Mordheim: City of the damned, Total War: Warhammer, BFG, Blood bowl and now Dawn of War 3
• The PRICES. Using The Flesh Eater Courts for AoS as an example: $180 USD for $280 USD of stuff. It's GREAT value.
• Free rules and community feedback
• Social media presence
• Free painting videos
• Outreach, support and conventions
• Everything moving to plastic (no new finecast sculpts)

Seriously. What a change from just 2 years ago. Bravo GW.

Can you confirm the specialist games? Personally I would like to get into those, since AoS was a big disappointment to me and 40k (with AoS as well) has a high upkeep and buy-in cost that I am not too comfortable with right now when I feel I get more out of a purchase of the competitions' product.

You can currently get Deathwatch Overkill and Betrayal at Calth. Blood Bowl is confirmed and has a facebook page with pictures of upcoming minis.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
It's official, from GW themselves, Specialist Games was revived earlier this year and the initial products are already well under development, so far Blood Bowl confirmed... rumors of a new, 15mm Epic have been running around, and finally BFG seems like a pretty solid bet. I could just as easily say that they could be absolutely fekking amazing as you could that they will be terrible at this point, no evidence. Chances are though, from the way they have been describing it and the stated intentions they have, I don't think they will stray too far from the previous for games like bloodbowl. I think that will be a pretty safe bet -

180 for 280 worth of stuff is exactly what I was mentioning earlier, I understand they can't just drop the MSRP on individual kits for various business reasons, but offering volume bundles is a great, key way for them to get back in the game imho.

So Blood Bowl was confirmed then.I knew that there was a picture of it, but was not sure if it was a rumor or not. I am sorry to be so skeptical, but do you have links for the other stuff? Would be interested to seem the revive Necromunda and Mordheim.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Monkey Tamer wrote:

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:

 SonOfSigvald wrote:
GW has really turned it around in my opinion.

• Bringing back specialty games
• Licencing out tons of video games for GW (some are bad, but still so many options now) such as: Mordheim: City of the damned, Total War: Warhammer, BFG, Blood bowl and now Dawn of War 3
• The PRICES. Using The Flesh Eater Courts for AoS as an example: $180 USD for $280 USD of stuff. It's GREAT value.
• Free rules and community feedback
• Social media presence
• Free painting videos
• Outreach, support and conventions
• Everything moving to plastic (no new finecast sculpts)

Seriously. What a change from just 2 years ago. Bravo GW.

Can you confirm the specialist games? Personally I would like to get into those, since AoS was a big disappointment to me and 40k (with AoS as well) has a high upkeep and buy-in cost that I am not too comfortable with right now when I feel I get more out of a purchase of the competitions' product.

You can currently get Deathwatch Overkill and Betrayal at Calth. Blood Bowl is confirmed and has a facebook page with pictures of upcoming minis.

Since I have been out of the loop of this for a while, are they independent board games or true tabletop games?

I mean I really like the models, and I might use them if they open up to Kill team or so.

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
It's official, from GW themselves, Specialist Games was revived earlier this year and the initial products are already well under development, so far Blood Bowl confirmed... rumors of a new, 15mm Epic have been running around, and finally BFG seems like a pretty solid bet. I could just as easily say that they could be absolutely fekking amazing as you could that they will be terrible at this point, no evidence. Chances are though, from the way they have been describing it and the stated intentions they have, I don't think they will stray too far from the previous for games like bloodbowl. I think that will be a pretty safe bet -

180 for 280 worth of stuff is exactly what I was mentioning earlier, I understand they can't just drop the MSRP on individual kits for various business reasons, but offering volume bundles is a great, key way for them to get back in the game imho.

So Blood Bowl was confirmed then.I knew that there was a picture of it, but was not sure if it was a rumor or not. I am sorry to be so skeptical, but do you have links for the other stuff? Would be interested to seem the revive Necromunda and Mordheim.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Monkey Tamer wrote:

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:

 SonOfSigvald wrote:
GW has really turned it around in my opinion.

• Bringing back specialty games
• Licencing out tons of video games for GW (some are bad, but still so many options now) such as: Mordheim: City of the damned, Total War: Warhammer, BFG, Blood bowl and now Dawn of War 3
• The PRICES. Using The Flesh Eater Courts for AoS as an example: $180 USD for $280 USD of stuff. It's GREAT value.
• Free rules and community feedback
• Social media presence
• Free painting videos
• Outreach, support and conventions
• Everything moving to plastic (no new finecast sculpts)

Seriously. What a change from just 2 years ago. Bravo GW.

Can you confirm the specialist games? Personally I would like to get into those, since AoS was a big disappointment to me and 40k (with AoS as well) has a high upkeep and buy-in cost that I am not too comfortable with right now when I feel I get more out of a purchase of the competitions' product.

You can currently get Deathwatch Overkill and Betrayal at Calth. Blood Bowl is confirmed and has a facebook page with pictures of upcoming minis.

Since I have been out of the loop of this for a while, are they independent board games or true tabletop games?

I mean I really like the models, and I might use them if they open up to Kill team or so.

I'm not sure what the distinction is you are getting at. They have rules to be played by themselves with the included miniatures, and those miniatures from what I understand can be used in 40K. Not sure if it's like Space Hulk, where you have to put the Terminators on the appropriate bases for 40K and remove them for playing Space Hulk.