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 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Make Lascannons Instant Death versus Monstrous Creatures.

That seems excessive.

I like Kanluwen's Bane of the Mighty idea a lot better. Lascannons would be able to actually perform their functions.

Even then the current issue people have with MC's is in regard to specific Monstrous Creatures. Imo people don't really have problems with tyrants (especially the foot sloggers) or demon princes. Either of the suggested buffs would make them extremely overkill against such targets.

People don't have problems with footslogging Hive Tyrants because footslogging Hive Tyrants aren't really a thing, same thing goes for Daemon Princes. To see either of those on the field is (putting it mildly) a bit of a rarity these days.
Hive Tyrants can offset it a bit by taking Tyrant Guard and Venomthropes though.

Give Rough Riders Death Rider stats and the ability to keep special weapons, maybe even give them joust

Stealth suits: Invisibility
Makes sense, right? Might actually make them a little too good for the price.

Vespids: Give them two attacks, S4, AP3 on melee.
Would make them nice, mobile, but not too strong anti meq assaulters

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Stealth suits: Invisibility
Makes sense, right? Might actually make them a little too good for the price.

Vespids: Give them two attacks, S4, AP3 on melee.
Would make them nice, mobile, but not too strong anti meq assaulters

Maybe invisible until they fire.

Martel732 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Stealth suits: Invisibility
Makes sense, right? Might actually make them a little too good for the price.

Vespids: Give them two attacks, S4, AP3 on melee.
Would make them nice, mobile, but not too strong anti meq assaulters

Maybe invisible until they fire.

Why?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, armourbane on, railgun and HRR.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Stealth suits: Invisibility
Makes sense, right? Might actually make them a little too good for the price.

Vespids: Give them two attacks, S4, AP3 on melee.
Would make them nice, mobile, but not too strong anti meq assaulters

Maybe invisible until they fire.

Why?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, armourbane on, railgun and HRR.

Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.

Because having invis till your fire at least makes you immune to alpha strikes. Which is the point of stealth I believe.

pm713 wrote:Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.

"Invisible until attack" is how it works in Dungeons and Dragons and Pathfinder, I think.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.

"Invisible until attack" is how it works in Dungeons and Dragons and Pathfinder, I think.

Unless you have improved invis. But see invis is a level 2 spell, so invisibility is a bit weak in Pathfinder.

pm713 wrote:
Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.

On some things perhaps, but stealth suits are not good at all. They are limited to 18" range, and will have burst cannons. They are expensive, and take up a highly contested elites slot. A whole team of suits cost 180 points, for 24 burst cannon shots on a squishy playform, trading s&s for invis would not be a problem. Although adding a "if a member of the party lacks a stealth field, the unit looses invisibility might be a good idea ro prevent IC abuse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Because having invis till your fire at least makes you immune to alpha strikes. Which is the point of stealth I believe.

Alpha strikes aren't their problem, their problem that they don't do anything unique or well. Maybe brinhing back the old stealth field rules where people had to roll to see if they were close enough ro shoot would work, but I wanted to keep it simple .

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.

On some things perhaps, but stealth suits are not good at all. They are limited to 18" range, and will have burst cannons. They are expensive, and take up a highly contested elites slot. A whole team of suits cost 180 points, for 24 burst cannon shots on a squishy playform, trading s&s for invis would not be a problem. Although adding a "if a member of the party lacks a stealth field, the unit looses invisibility might be a good idea ro prevent IC abuse.

Honestly it doesn't really matter what the unit has. While that might not be massively OP for tournaments every single casual player just got fethed over which really isn't fair.

"their problem that they don't do anything unique or well."

That's my entire codex, which is why I can't legitimately add to this list, as there are no small changes that would help. Maybe if I could take 1-man squads lol.

pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.

On some things perhaps, but stealth suits are not good at all. They are limited to 18" range, and will have burst cannons. They are expensive, and take up a highly contested elites slot. A whole team of suits cost 180 points, for 24 burst cannon shots on a squishy playform, trading s&s for invis would not be a problem. Although adding a "if a member of the party lacks a stealth field, the unit looses invisibility might be a good idea ro prevent IC abuse.

Honestly it doesn't really matter what the unit has. While that might not be massively OP for tournaments every single casual player just got fethed over which really isn't fair.

How exactly? FW teams have more damage output than stealthsuit. And they are T3, 21.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.

On some things perhaps, but stealth suits are not good at all. They are limited to 18" range, and will have burst cannons. They are expensive, and take up a highly contested elites slot. A whole team of suits cost 180 points, for 24 burst cannon shots on a squishy playform, trading s&s for invis would not be a problem. Although adding a "if a member of the party lacks a stealth field, the unit looses invisibility might be a good idea ro prevent IC abuse.

Honestly it doesn't really matter what the unit has. While that might not be massively OP for tournaments every single casual player just got fethed over which really isn't fair.

How exactly? FW teams have more damage output than stealthsuit. And they are T3, 21.

21 what?

Martel732 wrote:
"their problem that they don't do anything unique or well."

That's my codex, which is why I can't legitimately add to this list, as there are no small changes that would help. Maybe if I could take 1-man squads lol.

special rule, all attacks are S: D

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"their problem that they don't do anything unique or well."

That's my codex, which is why I can't legitimately add to this list, as there are no small changes that would help. Maybe if I could take 1-man squads lol.

special rule, all attacks are S: D

That's not a small change, though. I'm pretty boned on this poll. There is no simple way to make jump meqs not totally fail in 7th.

pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.

On some things perhaps, but stealth suits are not good at all. They are limited to 18" range, and will have burst cannons. They are expensive, and take up a highly contested elites slot. A whole team of suits cost 180 points, for 24 burst cannon shots on a squishy playform, trading s&s for invis would not be a problem. Although adding a "if a member of the party lacks a stealth field, the unit looses invisibility might be a good idea ro prevent IC abuse.

Honestly it doesn't really matter what the unit has. While that might not be massively OP for tournaments every single casual player just got fethed over which really isn't fair.

How exactly? FW teams have more damage output than stealthsuit. And they are T3, 21.

21 what?

Sorry, typing on my phone. That's supposed to be w1.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.

On some things perhaps, but stealth suits are not good at all. They are limited to 18" range, and will have burst cannons. They are expensive, and take up a highly contested elites slot. A whole team of suits cost 180 points, for 24 burst cannon shots on a squishy playform, trading s&s for invis would not be a problem. Although adding a "if a member of the party lacks a stealth field, the unit looses invisibility might be a good idea ro prevent IC abuse.

Honestly it doesn't really matter what the unit has. While that might not be massively OP for tournaments every single casual player just got fethed over which really isn't fair.

How exactly? FW teams have more damage output than stealthsuit. And they are T3, 21.

21 what?

Sorry, typing on my phone. That's supposed to be w1.

Ugh phone typing always gets me.

You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It can't destroy vehicles, it can barely plink heavy infantry and it's awful against MCs. Lascannons are kind of useless nowadays.

Tbh vehicles aren't exactly hard to destroy these days. The main problem is High S and High AP weapons can't reliably pop vehicles in one shot anymore. But then again for vehicles in their current state that may be a good thing....

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It can't destroy vehicles, it can barely plink heavy infantry and it's awful against MCs. Lascannons are kind of useless nowadays.

Tbh vehicles aren't exactly hard to destroy these days. The main problem is High S and High AP weapons can't reliably pop vehicles in one shot anymore. But then again for vehicles in their current state that may be a good thing....

They are tolerable against vehicles, but fail utterly against MCs. Which is stupid and frustrating because MCs dominate the game now. As well as units of pseudo-MCs, ie TWC.

pm713 wrote:

Ugh phone typing always gets me.

You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?

Honestly, no, because they aren't strong, and wouldn't be impossible to kill with this. It's still a 1/6 chance to hit, and they are squishy. It would be like them taking both their armor and cover saves.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Ugh phone typing always gets me.

You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?

Honestly, no, because they aren't strong, and wouldn't be impossible to kill with this. It's still a 1/6 chance to hit, and they are squishy. It would be like them taking both their armor and cover saves.

You need to hit on a 6, then wound, then fail the save. They aren't great but they aren't THAT bad.

Shining Spears:

Hit and Run
Hammer of Wrath hits made using the profile of their lance weapon.

There, now they are guaranteed to do some damage on the charge and won't get bogged down!

pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Ugh phone typing always gets me.

You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?

Honestly, no, because they aren't strong, and wouldn't be impossible to kill with this. It's still a 1/6 chance to hit, and they are squishy. It would be like them taking both their armor and cover saves.

You need to hit on a 6, then wound, then fail the save. They aren't great but they aren't THAT bad.

And they are a T3 unit, not exactly hard to wound. And they have to get in close to do any sort of damage (18", remember), so that means they will almost always be able to be shot at. It's one of their main problems, other than the unnecessary expanse, lack of options, and contested elites slot.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Ugh phone typing always gets me.

You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?

Honestly, no, because they aren't strong, and wouldn't be impossible to kill with this. It's still a 1/6 chance to hit, and they are squishy. It would be like them taking both their armor and cover saves.

You need to hit on a 6, then wound, then fail the save. They aren't great but they aren't THAT bad.

And they are a T3 unit, not exactly hard to wound. And they have to get in close to do any sort of damage (18", remember), so that means they will almost always be able to be shot at. It's one of their main problems, other than the unnecessary expanse, lack of options, and contested elites slot.

Which doesn't matter much when you can ignore 5/6 hits and pass 5/6 saves most of the time. Plus immune to templates and blast. Can't they infiltrate?

pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Ugh phone typing always gets me.

You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?

Honestly, no, because they aren't strong, and wouldn't be impossible to kill with this. It's still a 1/6 chance to hit, and they are squishy. It would be like them taking both their armor and cover saves.

You need to hit on a 6, then wound, then fail the save. They aren't great but they aren't THAT bad.

And they are a T3 unit, not exactly hard to wound. And they have to get in close to do any sort of damage (18", remember), so that means they will almost always be able to be shot at. It's one of their main problems, other than the unnecessary expanse, lack of options, and contested elites slot.

Which doesn't matter much when you can ignore 5/6 hits and pass 5/6 saves most of the time. Plus immune to templates and blast. Can't they infiltrate?

They have a 3+ save, not a 2+. And it can be ignored.

Yes, they can infiltrate.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Ugh phone typing always gets me.

You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?

Honestly, no, because they aren't strong, and wouldn't be impossible to kill with this. It's still a 1/6 chance to hit, and they are squishy. It would be like them taking both their armor and cover saves.

You need to hit on a 6, then wound, then fail the save. They aren't great but they aren't THAT bad.

And they are a T3 unit, not exactly hard to wound. And they have to get in close to do any sort of damage (18", remember), so that means they will almost always be able to be shot at. It's one of their main problems, other than the unnecessary expanse, lack of options, and contested elites slot.

Which doesn't matter much when you can ignore 5/6 hits and pass 5/6 saves most of the time. Plus immune to templates and blast. Can't they infiltrate?

They have a 3+ save, not a 2+. And it can be ignored.

Yes, they can infiltrate.

When I meant the save I was referring to cover which with stealth and shrouded is a 2+ in almost all terrain. Am I wrong about that? Ignore cover isn't massively common and infiltrate really helps reduce the issue of short range.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Stealth suits: Invisibility
Makes sense, right? Might actually make them a little too good for the price.

Vespids: Give them two attacks, S4, AP3 on melee.
Would make them nice, mobile, but not too strong anti meq assaulters

Okay so at 1850 I can take around 15 units of 3 of these guys (yes unbound). Seeing as you cann't hit them with blast or template, grav it probably going to be you best option for killing these guys. Even hitting them with 20 grav shots is only going to cause 2.2222 wounds before cover saves. Yeah that seems fair.....

I assume because the ghostkeel is a stealth unit, it gets invis too?

pm713 wrote:

When I meant the save I was referring to cover which with stealth and shrouded is a 2+ in almost all terrain. Am I wrong about that? Ignore cover isn't massively common and infiltrate really helps reduce the issue of short range.

Sure, but it's only every used when you can get that 2+ (in 5+ or better cover), or against 3- AP. In all other cases they are squishier than MEQs. And, again, they are overpriced, lack options, don't have much damage output, take up an elites slot, and don't do anything interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Payne wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Stealth suits: Invisibility
Makes sense, right? Might actually make them a little too good for the price.

Vespids: Give them two attacks, S4, AP3 on melee.
Would make them nice, mobile, but not too strong anti meq assaulters

Okay so at 1850 I can take around 15 units of 3 of these guys (yes unbound). Seeing as you cann't hit them with blast or template, grav it probably going to be you best option for killing these guys. Even hitting them with 20 grav shots is only going to cause 2.2222 wounds before cover saves. Yeah that seems fair.....

I assume because the ghostkeel is a stealth unit, it gets invis too?

Nah, they're good all one their own.

Also, grav isn't what you would want to use at all. They already die to any sort of high RoF weapon. It would be the same here, you would just have to fire more.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

When I meant the save I was referring to cover which with stealth and shrouded is a 2+ in almost all terrain. Am I wrong about that? Ignore cover isn't massively common and infiltrate really helps reduce the issue of short range.

Sure, but it's only every used when you can get that 2+ (in 5+ or better cover), or against 3- AP. In all other cases they are squishier than MEQs. And, again, they are overpriced, lack options, don't have much damage output, take up an elites slot, and don't do anything interesting.

It isn't hard to get into cover and AP3 is hardly everywhere. Again I am not arguing that that isn't true but I am arguing giving them Invisibility base is ridiculous because casual players exist.