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2016/12/19 01:13:46
Subject: Perfect dices
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Fireknife Shas'el
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Long ago I bought a bunch of cheap white dice from a bargain bin. I got a lot of 1s rolled, So I rolled all of them and took the 1s. I re-rolled those 1s and got about 60% of those come up 1s. I re-rolled those and got about 80% of those coming up 1s.
I threw those dice away - they cost me 10 cents each, and I got ripped off.
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2016/12/19 01:29:30
Subject: Perfect dices
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Mathematics bro, one calculates a confidence interval and rolls as many times as they need to roll to achieve the desired confidence. Only a fool rolls 144,000 times when they don't need to.
I rolled over 2000 times and the chance of me being out by more than 2% is less than 1%, so I'm at least 99% sure my dice aren't biased more than 2%.
The chance of me rolling 17.83% 6's if the dice were actually perfect (ie. 16.67%) is around 1%, so I'm pretty confident in my numbers that my dice actually are ever so slightly biased toward 6 rather than 1.
The more logical explanation is that the dude who wrote that got unlucky and bought sets of poorly manufactured dice OR that his/her rolling technique is more susceptible to bias than mine.
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2016/12/19 01:51:49
Subject: Perfect dices
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
USA
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Time to put those Chessex dice away I guess.... cost me so many games sigh
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2016/12/19 03:31:57
Subject: Perfect dices
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Rust belt
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just play the game and don't worry about things you can't control. It's just a game, not life or death.
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2016/12/19 04:07:32
Subject: Perfect dices
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Chute82 wrote:just play the game and don't worry about things you can't control. It's just a game, not life or death.
Except, ya know, biased dice ARE something you can have some control over
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2016/12/19 07:41:13
Subject: Perfect dices
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The Hammer of Witches
A new day, a new time zone.
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Except the probability of 2x 30 dice sets and a set of casino dice all actually defective and misweighted is rather slim.
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"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..." Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. |
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2016/12/19 10:57:06
Subject: Perfect dices
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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I never suggested it was, but it's still something you can measure and have control over thus not something that should be discarded as "don't worry, you can't control it".
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2016/12/19 11:15:08
Subject: Perfect dices
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
USA
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Bookwrack wrote:Except the probability of 2x 30 dice sets and a set of casino dice all actually defective and misweighted is rather slim.
I don't believe the casino ones are defective, I wasn't really rolling them correctly like crap dices due to the fact that they are big and can do a lot of damage to a model,
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2016/12/19 11:44:22
Subject: Perfect dices
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Dakka Veteran
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Is it really possible to tell if dice are rolling badly through a game of 40k?
I don't know about anybody else but I have about 50 dice, mainly white but some are green and grey and I'd have absolutely no idea which dice were rolling what. I pick them up at random, and roll them at random.
Also, can dropping dice out of your hand (which I admit to doing when the table is cluttered with models or scenery) really give you the result you want? Unless you picked them up with the 6's facing up you'd surely still not be able to affect the outcome.
Or am I being naïve?
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I've been playing a while, my first model was a lead marine and my first White Dwarf was bound with staples |
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2016/12/19 13:15:16
Subject: Perfect dices
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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There is an imperial fist player on these fair forums, who when playing against him was rolling lots of ones with his Imperial Fist dice, as soon as he stopped using them he got much better rolls.
So basically we just tested them a little and ones were about a 50-70% probability which definitely was not right. I personally think many of these special dices GW makes are not always balanced properly, especially seeing they like to cut a big chunk out of the 6 or one side which potentially weights the dice.
With normal dice? No idea.
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2000
1500
Astral Miliwhat? You're in the Guard son! |
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2016/12/19 13:35:22
Subject: Perfect dices
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Baldeagle91 wrote:There is an imperial fist player on these fair forums, who when playing against him was rolling lots of ones with his Imperial Fist dice, as soon as he stopped using them he got much better rolls. So basically we just tested them a little and ones were about a 50-70% probability which definitely was not right. I personally think many of these special dices GW makes are not always balanced properly, especially seeing they like to cut a big chunk out of the 6 or one side which potentially weights the dice. With normal dice? No idea.
I have actually wondered about those fancy dice and whether or not they're biased. I found this article which is kind of interest BUT before people start quoting this as gospel note they are simply dropping dice on to a plexiglass surface from 10cm and they don't say how their automatic rolling system works (I could imagine biases become more obvious if it just picks it up then drops it again without giving it a shake and a proper roll to randomise the initial condition before the dice is dropped). http://dicephysics.info/0107.htm I wouldn't be surprised if my method for rolling dice (giving them a good shake in my reasonably large hands and then dropping them a short distance so they don't hit my models) helps reduce bias.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/19 13:58:06
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2016/12/19 14:21:49
Subject: Perfect dices
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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All commercially produced dice are inherently flawed. The degree to which they're flawed will vary. Consistency of plastic, air bubbles, filler, bad cuts, poor sanding/polishing, etc.
While it is very possible a certain set of dice may roll badly, you're just as likely to get a set which rolls above average etc. If you're really concerned, buy a new box of dice for the whopping $5-6 they cost and carry on.
I'd be more concerned as a role-player if you use only one small set of 7-10 dice.
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2016/12/19 14:43:05
Subject: Perfect dices
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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SonsofVulkan wrote: Bookwrack wrote:Except the probability of 2x 30 dice sets and a set of casino dice all actually defective and misweighted is rather slim. I don't believe the casino ones are defective, I wasn't really rolling them correctly like crap dices due to the fact that they are big and can do a lot of damage to a model, This is exactly the reason you shouldn't use casino dice. They are too hard on the models and gaming surface, and the difference in accuracy isn't worth the cost. As others have pointed out, they are meant to be used under very specific circumstances. GameScience Dice too are hard on the surfaces, models, and hands... they aren't comfortable in the hand. Our gaming surfaces vary too much, and even those who use dice boxes or dice towers are victims of that that equipment is set on. Here is an analogy: I hunt. When sighting in my rifle, I can align the scope sights and barrel in such a way that I can get three bullets into the target at 150 yards in such a way that they are touching. Using decent ammo, I can repeat this feat 9 out of 10 times and the 10th there will be less than the width of a piece of paper between the outlier and the rest of the group. That is using a shooting bench, purpose made vice to hold the weapon steady and very carefully selected atmospheric conditions. Such accuracy is wasted in the field. The vitals on my game of choice is roughly the size of a dinner plate, and any bullet in that area will drop the animal cleanly and humanely within a few seconds. In the field, I deal with non-ideal physical conditions like wind, snow, rain, unbraced standing or kneeling shots, and the unforeseen. Do I train on hitting the bullseye in the field? No... I train on hitting the dinner plate... every time. The gun can shoot way more accurate than I have the ability to use it. In my wargaming, will I every play well enough that a difference of 0.03% on my 60 dice will make the difference between winning and losing? Not likely. There are far more meaningful ways to improve my game than agonizing over my dice.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/19 14:46:32
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2016/12/19 14:52:49
Subject: Re:Perfect dices
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Lieutenant General
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Again, precision backgammon dice can give you the results you're looking for in the craps dice without the problems craps dice have.
http://asl-battleschool.blogspot.ca/2011/06/what-precisely-are-precision-dice.html?m=1
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2016/12/19 15:00:34
Subject: Re:Perfect dices
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Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot
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Whatever the rolls you do, you might smoothen your inner wrath against your lack of luck through another simple tip: that's playkng with dices you like. That may be some plastic pieces, but still, you'll have a better feeling with some dices. Either bbecause they roll better' or their comfortable in the hand, or you like the drawings on it... whatever. If they feel morep pleasant you'll resent less against bad rolls.
Well, at least that's my personnal experience: i like playing with my 2004 imperial-decorated dices for they're both comfortable, and good looking.
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40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably. |
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2016/12/19 15:21:58
Subject: Re:Perfect dices
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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I bought some dice on eBay a couple of years ago to use with my Dark Angels army. They have a DA symbol on the 6 face. I'm not sure but what they do roll more 1's than they should, but I'm not going to stop using them because 1) They are way too cool not to use, and 2) I seriously doubt they are heavily biased due to having had some very hot games with them.
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2016/12/19 15:29:23
Subject: Re:Perfect dices
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Other than the price
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2016/12/19 15:30:49
Subject: Re:Perfect dices
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Lieutenant General
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The OP said he was willing to 'not go cheap'...
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2016/12/19 16:12:39
Subject: Perfect dices
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Blackclad Wayfarer
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A friend of mine that went to the ATC/ETC for 40k a few times - ordered the nice laser cut casino dice - and yet he still manages to roll terrible some games. Are you playing elite heavy Deathwing type armies? or Orks/Tyranids/lots of dice? Rerolls plenty? It may just be the force you are using.
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2016/12/19 16:26:38
Subject: Re:Perfect dices
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Fireknife Shas'el
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Keep in mind you're on a forum where paying $5-12 for a single plastic 32mm miniature is the norm. $6 dice you can be sure are 'fair' seems all right by that standard.
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2016/12/19 16:38:00
Subject: Re:Perfect dices
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
USA
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Ghaz wrote:
The OP said he was willing to 'not go cheap'...
Those look ok, but I still think razor edge dices are better. I end up going with game science.
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2016/12/19 17:42:44
Subject: Re:Perfect dices
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Lieutenant General
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SonsofVulkan wrote: Ghaz wrote:
The OP said he was willing to 'not go cheap'...
Those look ok, but I still think razor edge dices are better. I end up going with game science.
Did you read the article as to why the razor edge casino dice are not better for wargaming?
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2016/12/20 03:33:41
Subject: Perfect dices
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
USA
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Yes I did, crap dices requires decent amount of bounce against vertical walls like at a crap table. The article then argues that casino dices(19mm) are too big for most dice towers and trays and also won't bounce enough.
That is why I also purchased game science ones which are smaller and will fit the dice tower I purchased.
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2016/12/20 03:52:24
Subject: Perfect dices
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Lieutenant General
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And still have all of the other problems listed...
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2016/12/20 04:01:01
Subject: Perfect dices
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
USA
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Ghaz wrote:And still have all of the other problems listed...
Well those are the only main arguments I saw against casino dices in that article which I agreed (my 19mm casino dices rolls horrible).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/20 04:01:55
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2016/12/20 04:11:59
Subject: Re:Perfect dices
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Lieutenant General
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Maybe your casino dice roll horribly because of some of the other problems listed in the article (don't tumble sufficiently due to the razor edge, wear and tear on your dice tower and the dice themself, etc.) and not just their size. Its your money, but as I see it you're just trading one set of problems for another set of problems...
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2016/12/20 05:23:11
Subject: Perfect dices
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
USA
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Correct the 19mm don't tumble and bounce well, due to their weight and size. i just got the game science dice today, they are lighter and small and had a better bounce. I'm still waiting for the new dice tower.
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2016/12/20 12:09:57
Subject: Perfect dices
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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SonsofVulkan wrote:I've been rolling like crap with the dices I've own, subaverage in like 90% of games. I own 2 sets of 30 small chessax dice, they suck. Then I brought a bunch of cheap used las vegas casino dices, they sucked too.
I just want to roll average or close to average.... help lol suggest me some brands, I'm willing to not go cheap on dices.
Dice scores are mostly influenced by the part of your body which can influence them.
That is definitely not your conscious mind, who would have trouble learning to throw even a single dice on a uniform surface properly (assuming the dice does roll at all that is).
So what you're left with is your unconscious mind, that which reads all inputs and writes all outputs so that you may walk without stumbling, recognize objects from an image, estimate the strength of the wind, etc.
That part of your brain is not directly connected to your conscious mind - not normally anyway - however both share a common source of information: your feelings.
What works really well is association of feelings with a specific outcome, for example, we tend to associate a good dice roll with happiness.
But your unconscious mind is not able to plan for happiness, otherwise we'd be happy all the friggin time, because that machine works so well it would drive every action towards happiness in automatic pilot for us.
However, there's one link which you can exploit here: good dice roll = happiness.
And another link which you are exploiting: bad dice roll = unhappiness / fear/ anxiety / defeat / ...
What happens with most subpar dice rollers is that as they start to fear the outcome of their dice rolls, these become progressively worse and they are measurably rolling lower than average, especially when it matters, i.e. when the negative stimuli (fear, anxiety, ...) are strongest.
Conversely, good dice rollers are convinced their dice will kick butt and will easily roll above average consistently, no matter the set of dice.
I have played Risk games against people who have rolled 30 6's in a row (the probability of which is interesting...), I have personally played 40k games where I rolled 60 6's out of 70 dice rolls right at the start of the game.
For the times when I rolled far above average (like 4.5+), I know I was fully pumped up, feeling invincible before throwing the first dice.
As far as I know, this hasn't yet been scientifically proven, but then the life sciences are so slow it might take another twenty years.
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2016/12/20 12:19:11
Subject: Perfect dices
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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morgoth wrote:As far as I know, this hasn't yet been scientifically proven
And I doubt it ever will be. I can believe someone who intentionally tries to think positively acknowledges and thus remembers their successes more than their failures, and conversely someone who thinks negatively remembers their failures more than their successes.... that their mindset actually effects the outcome? That's a bit more far fetched. The idea that we can control external physics with our internal emotions, yeah, not going to believe that without evidence.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/20 12:19:30
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2016/12/20 12:26:50
Subject: Perfect dices
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:morgoth wrote:As far as I know, this hasn't yet been scientifically proven
And I doubt it ever will be. I can believe someone who intentionally tries to think positively acknowledges and thus remembers their successes more than their failures, and conversely someone who thinks negatively remembers their failures more than their successes.... that their mindset actually effects the outcome? That's a bit more far fetched. The idea that we can control external physics with our internal emotions, yeah, not going to believe that without evidence.
If you had been told that time and space were inextricably linked, you wouldn't have believed it either.
First comes the vision, then the detailed explanation, then the experiments to confirm it.
The very idea that your unconscious mind which is responsible for so much would be unable to influence throwing a dice is ridiculous.
It's easier to make a robot that throws only 6's than to make a robot that walks.
But you're welcome to believe anything you like.
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