Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The armour looks the same as the previous model. I like that she isn't overly blinged out. Feels more saintly and humble. And Seraphim would come in a box of 5, not 3.

So they've shown the content of the box? Can you link to the pics of the sprues? I'd like to see if there are any other options on there?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
She looks pretty damn different to me :-/

I agree. She definitely looks different. Not to restart the debate, but when I first saw the figures my initial thought was "wow, they actually look like they're wearing armor instead of painting it on!".


I love the figures, for the record.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Celestine is a perpetual, I'm assuming? It explains why she keeps coming back...

Can we please not bring the 40k version of midi-chlorians into the lore of sisters and celestine?

Great comparison, I never thought of them like that. Though I disagree with leaving things unexplained, Perpetuals are plenty stupid. Bad explanations are worse than none.

Zwan1One wrote:
It's funny how no one has drawn a naked man over the top of a space marine miniature. Sexist? But we'd soon see how badly marines are sculpted and proportioned.

It was done in response to people whining about the new models being "fat". Not to mention that these new Sisters are a really big deal, because we've been waiting for new Sisters for a very long time. It's important to recognise that this was done in response to specific criticism and in a really positive light, not "woo naked woo". Besides, Marines are poorly proportioned (arms too long, especially), we know that already.

Astartes don't have human proportions. That's kind of the thing all the better BL authors and the Codex emphasize.

Seems to me that St. Celestine and the Gemini Superiors are a three model box, like the Exalted Sorcerers.

No, they emphasise their size and bulk. The models, on the other hand, have long gorilla arms that go down to their knees when extended and have a near-nonexistent abdomen. Veteran Sergeant's "tallscaling" project shows this off pretty well. Let's not forget the occasional leg bitz that have the Marine leg a cylindrical trunk that comes out horizontally and angles down, meaning their legs are connected to their body like a Wraithlord's. That isn't the worst example of it, but I can't find the bit that shows it best. Fortunately, this is largely a thing of the past.

Furthermore, you have to pick a point where you decide the miniatures are at fault, because proportions aside the Marines are simply not tall enough in comparison to more human miniatures like Guardsmen or the new Genestealer Cultists (which have better proportions than the former due to being newer and less so-called "heroic scale"). Games Workshop have improved these flaws enormously over the years, with the latest Marines - the Deathwatch releases - being far better than earlier sculpts in terms of body plan.

Nurglitch wrote:
Astartes don't have human proportions. That's kind of the thing all the better BL authors and the Codex emphasize.

Eh, all of the depictions show them more or less human proportioned, with slightly larger are squarer heads. This idea of weirdly proportioned Space Marines is a player-created myth.

From Horus Rising:

Loken set aside the segment of armour he had been polishing and rose to his feet. He was almost a metre taller than her, and naked but for a loin cloth. She sighed inwardly at the splendour of his physique. The knotted muscles, the old ridge-scars. He was handsome too, this one, fair hair almost silver, cut short, his pale skin slightly freckled, his eyes grey like rain. What a waste, she thought.
Though there was no disguising his inhumanity, especially in his bared form. Apart from the sheer mass of him,there was an overgrown gigantism of the face, that peculiar characteristic of the Astartes, almost equine, plus the hard, taut shell of his rib-less torso, like stretched canvas.

Dan Abnett seems to be pretty universally regarded as one of the "better BL authors", despite his propensity to heavily borrow from existing literature (for example, Prospero Burns is basically just a retelling of the 13th Warrior by Michael Crichton, mixed with the Casper Hauser "wolf boy" mythology from Germany).

Official GW artwork:
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/SM6.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LzeOsQk6pYQ/V1hivPw_AcI/AAAAAAABD9w/N3I_qb1xvQs73iOkNlPZZuXC58YtodPjACKgB/s640/spacemarine.PNG

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/05/b4/62/05b4627899d34875a84f8db2146bfdc3.jpg

All of which demonstrate more or less human proportions (based on proportionate head size and arm-hang position).


The proportions of the models are what are bad, not the proportions in the universe.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
No, they emphasise their size and bulk. The models, on the other hand, have long gorilla arms that go down to their knees when extended and have a near-nonexistent abdomen. Veteran Sergeant's "tallscaling" project shows this off pretty well. Let's not forget the occasional leg bitz that have the Marine leg a cylindrical trunk that comes out horizontally and angles down, meaning their legs are connected to their body like a Wraithlord's. That isn't the worst example of it, but I can't find the bit that shows it best. Fortunately, this is largely a thing of the past.

Furthermore, you have to pick a point where you decide the miniatures are at fault, because proportions aside the Marines are simply not tall enough in comparison to more human miniatures like Guardsmen or the new Genestealer Cultists (which have better proportions than the former due to being newer and less so-called "heroic scale"). Games Workshop have improved these flaws enormously over the years, with the latest Marines - the Deathwatch releases - being far better than earlier sculpts in terms of body plan.

Isn't that just.....well, poor design?

The seated cylinder trunk is a relic of plastic molds: they can't have undercuts. Since the part is almost impossible to properly see after assembly it's not really an issue.

And it seems people always want to discus how human models are proportioned: Old Sisters having "manly faces", space marines have weird proportions or not being tall enough to be in proper scale with the rest of the game, Cadians having overly large hands, Catachan having balloon muscles...

Criticism of human models for not being perfect is nothing new and frankly it's such an old hat that I think we really need to get a new one.

I'm partial to the one Greyfox is wearing. The candle could even give her Night Vision!

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
No, they emphasise their size and bulk. The models, on the other hand, have long gorilla arms that go down to their knees when extended and have a near-nonexistent abdomen. Veteran Sergeant's "tallscaling" project shows this off pretty well. Let's not forget the occasional leg bitz that have the Marine leg a cylindrical trunk that comes out horizontally and angles down, meaning their legs are connected to their body like a Wraithlord's. That isn't the worst example of it, but I can't find the bit that shows it best. Fortunately, this is largely a thing of the past.

Furthermore, you have to pick a point where you decide the miniatures are at fault, because proportions aside the Marines are simply not tall enough in comparison to more human miniatures like Guardsmen or the new Genestealer Cultists (which have better proportions than the former due to being newer and less so-called "heroic scale"). Games Workshop have improved these flaws enormously over the years, with the latest Marines - the Deathwatch releases - being far better than earlier sculpts in terms of body plan.

Isn't that just.....well, poor design?

Well, yeah. Sorry if I didn't communicate that correctly, but that was my point.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The seated cylinder trunk is a relic of plastic molds: they can't have undercuts. Since the part is almost impossible to properly see after assembly it's not really an issue.

And it seems people always want to discus how human models are proportioned: Old Sisters having "manly faces", space marines have weird proportions or not being tall enough to be in proper scale with the rest of the game, Cadians having overly large hands, Catachan having balloon muscles...

Criticism of human models for not being perfect is nothing new and frankly it's such an old hat that I think we really need to get a new one.

I think it's a very valid criticism when discussing miniatures. The awfulness that is old "heroic scale" (balloon hands, balloon legs, etc) is why I don't own any of those miniatures, and is generally very important with regards to whether or not I will purchase something. As the vast majority of miniatures are humans, and proportion is a very significant element of their design, it will always be a relevant discussion. And I'm sorry for not finding it, but I know for certain that some of the many standing power armoured leg bits showcase that as well. I just couldn't find it. I don't think there's any excuse for having human models with legs that attach to their bodies like this.

EDIT: Found it. Deathwatch, for shame!

Veteran,

If you think someone copied off Michael Crichton's Eaters of the Dead (i.e. the film The 13th Warrior), that's just a version of Beowulf he wrote as the result of a bet between himself and another professor. (as the story goes, one of his fellow professors was lamenting the difficulties of teaching ancient classics to modern students - he stated there was no way to make Beowulf interesting for a modern audience - Michael Crichton accepted his challenge and wrote the book Eaters of the Dead).

So, is Prospero Burns really just Beowulf?

 streamdragon wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
She looks pretty damn different to me :-/

I agree. She definitely looks different. Not to restart the debate, but when I first saw the figures my initial thought was "wow, they actually look like they're wearing armor instead of painting it on!".

Her ornamentation is mostly the same, I think that the biggest difference apart from the wings is the wind blown robes. The old models robes framed her waist and thighs. The ornamentation is the same as well, but again it isn't all gathered together on her legs and framed by her robes.

The look is different only because the model isn't striking her "be chill I'm ascending, kill you heretics in a sec" pose. I actually like the flock of doves; fire sword in one hand, faith evoking birds from the other. Fire, Faith, very sisterly if you ask me. I prefer the old one, but mostly because of the spindly purity seal bounce house look.

I will pass and keep using my old one, working on upgrading some seraphim superiors to Gemini. I am excited to finally have a reason to put a power sword seraphim superior on the table.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Celestine is a perpetual, I'm assuming? It explains why she keeps coming back...

She could also be whatever Ephrael Stern was, which does not seem to have been a perpetual so much as a woman who refuses to stay dead at the behest of some serious power thrown her way. This is 40k after all, orks can wish you back to life by not believing you'd die. Not everything has a clean and dry answer.

I think she's more like an act of faith; like a psychically manifested being rather than actually reviving each time. I think it's a little like the Eldar's avatar where there can probably be more than one of her at a time popping up. At least that's how I look at it.

or similar to the Legion of the Damned

or a manifestation of the Emperor's will

or a Angel / Daemon of His.

Or so strong a spriit she can resist the death of self in the Warp

or a manifestation of the collective Faith of the Sororitas

Depends on how you view the mythology and reality of the 40kverse.

Have to admit, part of me enjoys how much of the universe stays unexplained. Even if it's any of the things listed, she's a manifestation of faith to the sisters. Which is a far better fate than Stern got, though I do wonder if a sister managing her way through the webway will play a part in the upcoming narrative.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
Have to admit, part of me enjoys how much of the universe stays unexplained. Even if it's any of the things listed, she's a manifestation of faith to the sisters. Which is a far better fate than Stern got, though I do wonder if a sister managing her way through the webway will play a part in the upcoming narrative.

*Looks at art of Greyfax and Co heading into what looks like a webway portal* Massively unlikely, but it would be cool if Greyfax has knowledge of the webway and was hinted to be a former Soritas

GoatboyBeta wrote:
*Looks at art of Greyfax and Co heading into what looks like a webway portal* Massively unlikely, but it would be cool if Greyfax has knowledge of the webway and was hinted to be a former Soritas

I've been trying to remember, but didn't they say during the live stream Greyfax wasn't a fan of Celestine, could be their getting there separately. Or it could be reading over Daemonifuge has my imagination in overdrive, man I hope dude wasn't taking me for a ride on the January releases.

Re: Celestine's nature - remember she isn't the only Living Saint to have appeared in the Ecclesiarchy's history. They pop up now and then during Wars of Faith and the implication is that their resurrection is powered by the same thing that makes Acts of Faith happen. I'd suggest that having the rule be an Act of Faith is an acknowledgement of that.

In other words, it's intentionally mysterious. In the 40K universe, belief has real psychic effects so there isn't really need for a convoluted explanation: The Warp Did It.

So basicly she is a Deamon then, well that would explain the Inqusitions dislike of her.

I reckon Tzentch is pulling her strings as a sleeper agent and cadia is where she get's trigged.

Lots of things in 40K are basically daemons, yeah. I doubt the Inquisition think of Celestine (or the Legion of the Damned, the Sanguinor, the Avatar of Khaine, Ork technology etc etc) in those terms.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Perpetual

Here's a list of them.

I'm not arguing that they don't exist, I'm saying they're the equivalent of Midi-Chlorians in that for whatever reason, fantasy settings have become allergic to the concept of something being unexplained. .

Mc were not the Force. Mc are used in the measure of Force, to a degree. They are drawn to/manifest in force sensitive beings, and increase in concentration depending on how sting the individual is. The are not the living force - they arent even sure what they really are. Thatt was not explained well in the travesty of film.

What if the Emperor is revealed to be the 5th Chaos God Malal, and Saints are his Greater Daemons.

:O

Thommy H wrote:
Lots of things in 40K are basically daemons, yeah. I doubt the Inquisition think of Celestine (or the Legion of the Damned, the Sanguinor, the Avatar of Khaine, Ork technology etc etc) in those terms.

Indeed. There are benevolent daemons, as all the thoughts and emotions of beings are reflected in the warp. It just so happens that the darkest thoughts and emotions of most life forms are the strongest, thus most people equate daemons to evil.

RyanAvx wrote:
What if the Emperor is revealed to be the 5th Chaos God Malal, and Saints are his Greater Daemons.

:O

Please this. I just want a ton of people to rage quit a tabletop game over the story being F'd.

 mmzero252 wrote:

RyanAvx wrote:
What if the Emperor is revealed to be the 5th Chaos God Malal, and Saints are his Greater Daemons.

:O

Please this. I just want a ton of people to rage quit a tabletop game over the story being F'd.

it could be like "The Fall MkII" - the eldar created slaanesh, the humans create malal - chaos god of...chaos?, hatred and destruction...sounds like a grimdark summary of humanity to me!

RyanAvx wrote:
What if the Emperor is revealed to be the 5th Chaos God Malal, and Saints are his Greater Daemons.

:O

Malal wants the destruction of EVERYTHING, not only Chaos. It's the god of terror, anarchy and annihilation, all things that neither a Living Saint nor the Emperor don't rappresent.

 Ezr91aeL wrote:

RyanAvx wrote:
What if the Emperor is revealed to be the 5th Chaos God Malal, and Saints are his Greater Daemons.

:O

Malal wants the destruction of EVERYTHING, not only Chaos. It's the god of terror, anarchy and annihilation, all things that neither a Living Saint nor the Emperor don't rappresent.

sorry, but, look at your sig, then read what you just typed again

What if Malal is the part of the Emperor that represents his utter hatred of chaos, and his willingness to destroy everything to destroy everything to eliminate it? This aspect of him could have been partly created by the zeal of his most fanatical followers, as well as the trauma of the Horus Heresy. In short, Malal / Dark Emperor is the god of the Imperium; single minded, willing to commit vast sacrifices to achieve a goal, ruthless and uncompromising.

On the flip side, there could be another aspect of the Emperor, one that is fueled by the more positive aspects of the Imperium; loyalty, duty, altruism (in the sense of self sacrifice), and resolve (no retreat, no surrender, all that jazz)

Wild Fan theories are fun

 Mr Morden wrote:
or similar to the Legion of the Damned

or a manifestation of the Emperor's will

or a Angel / Daemon of His.

Or so strong a spriit she can resist the death of self in the Warp

or a manifestation of the collective Faith of the Sororitas

Depends on how you view the mythology and reality of the 40kverse.

That's the best part about the Warp: all of those things can be true at the same time without conflicting.