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Well. Was a good thread until the bot farms found it.

It's also because a lot of them are younger.

Original series, by today's standards, isn't really all that amazing. It's fairly hammy and the plots are weekly with very little in terms of long running story elements.

The fact that the main bridge crew has women, multiple different cultural groups and such. The fact that Kirk kisses Uhura in one episode.

All those things don't seem progressive or amazing or really that shocking today. So when people today look back on it it just seems "normal". However they don't realise that for its time it was insanely progressive. That kiss is battling for one of the first inter-racial kisses on television; that multicultural crew is really out there.

It was one of the most progressive shows of its day. If anything ST hasn't been progressive and "what some would call woke" enough over the last few seasons if it want's to keep up with its actual history.

One thing about ST was that those things in-universe were always treated as normal and made casual appearance unlike other modern franchise were things need to be obvious for everyone to be progressive (were we are back that the bad writing when everyone else is missing from a character)

but than looking at Lower Decks it keeps up with the theme and in general often what is now wanted as "progressive" has already been there 20-30 years ago
talk about the first female action star or first female leading officer in a show, like if the 90ies never happened

this let me conclude that if something does not create and internet outrage it is not seen as "woke" or "progressive" among certain groups (not sure if this is because of US focused social media)

The whole "woke" thing does seem to me to be more of a US than UK/EU thing.

 Overread wrote:
It's also because a lot of them are younger.

Original series, by today's standards, isn't really all that amazing. It's fairly hammy and the plots are weekly with very little in terms of long running story elements.

The fact that the main bridge crew has women, multiple different cultural groups and such. The fact that Kirk kisses Uhura in one episode.

All those things don't seem progressive or amazing or really that shocking today. So when people today look back on it it just seems "normal". However they don't realise that for its time it was insanely progressive. That kiss is battling for one of the first inter-racial kisses on television; that multicultural crew is really out there.

It was one of the most progressive shows of its day. If anything ST hasn't been progressive and "what some would call woke" enough over the last few seasons if it want's to keep up with its actual history.

Fun fact about that scene?

It received a grand total of one letter of complaint. One. And even then, the author of which opposed mixing of the races, noted he didn’t blame Kirk because Uhura was a hottie.

 ruprecht wrote:
Removed.

Seriously, you put yourself in the conspiracy-theory box.


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Not Online!!! wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s..really not gaslighting, as I explained above. See also “please learn how to words”.

And whilst you’re at that? I still don’t think anyone has explained why, among the dozens if not hundreds of such retcons since the very beginning of the game (like Custodes being genhanced and swapping leather strides, black cloaks and techno helmets for Massive Suits of Armour) is the one that’s apparently A Step Too Far, and a slap in the face and gaslighting and all that hysteria inducing good stuff.

Why this one? Why now?

Because right now GW instead of pointing out that it is a "normal retcon" (which remind me were not ever well recieved after i'd say 3-4th edition but he that is not enough for you for some reason) is banning everyone pointing out that their statement is not true on the twatter regardless how respectfully they did it

Also just because the "Zersetzung-part" wasn't achieved doesn't mean that such behaviour is not indicative of the typicall behaviour and communication formation that aims to achieve the gaslighting effect.

It is true though, that’s what the lore is now.

The fact that the lore was different last month is by the by. They own the IP and they changed it. That’s pretty much how they always do retcons.

Including the banning of people pointing out that wasn't the case? no? Again see above i explained it there.

GW is the proverbial Voice of God. What they say, goes. If I got into a Twitter argument with George Lucas about whether or not Han shot first and he banned me, that's his prerogative in his space.

 Overread wrote:
The whole "woke" thing does seem to me to be more of a US than UK/EU thing.

In my limited experience of knowing/working with a few Americans it just seems to be the norm/society is generally more dramatic and overt compared to UK/EU.

Nice to know some of those claiming to be opposed are mostly upset by their own imagination.

 ruprecht wrote:
Removed.

It seems to matter a lot to the no-girls-allowed crowd, as they're the ones that started howling like mad dogs.

And for those of us advocating for these kinds of changes? Yeah, it matters. Because representation matters.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Because representation matters.

Why? Help me understand why (insert demographic here) is important to be represented in (insert faction). I couldn't give one flying rat's ass that I'm not "represented" in any part of 40k except the Guard - in which I'm represented as a meatshield with a flashlight and a tshirt. Nobody is.

I think the whole idea of "having investment in 40k" the way you speak of is questionable. Who gets to decide what counts as sufficient investment? Is there a spending limit in dollars you have to meet? Do you have to win a tournament or a painting contest? Answer hard questions about the backstory?

 ruprecht wrote:
I'll have this thread to remind me that I was there when the little deaths started.

*snerk*

I mean, good for you, but I'm not sure that needed sharing!

 ruprecht wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Because representation matters.

Why? Help me understand why (insert demographic here) is important to be represented in (insert faction). I couldn't give one flying rat's ass that I'm not "represented" in any part of 40k except the Guard - in which I'm represented as a meatshield with a flashlight and a tshirt. Nobody is.

There's about 30 pages of thread, if you'd like to catch yourself up. The short version is that being able to see yourself in these kinds of roles can be empowering and inspiring, and just plain feels good.

Beyond that, it's impossible to argue empathy at you (or anyone else), so if you don't get it, I'm not sure I can help you.

I mean, sure, if we're ranking opinions based on seniority, I'd be more than happy to dance the fandango with any of y'all young pups. I've been here for close to 20 years, I've been in this hobby for close to 30. I have **invested** more of my life into 40k than most of you casuals could even count.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 ruprecht wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Because representation matters.

Why? Help me understand why (insert demographic here) is important to be represented in (insert faction). I couldn't give one flying rat's ass that I'm not "represented" in any part of 40k except the Guard - in which I'm represented as a meatshield with a flashlight and a tshirt. Nobody is.

The short version is that being able to see yourself in these kinds of roles can be empowering and inspiring, and just plain feels good.

Beyond that, it's impossible to argue empathy at you (or anyone else), so if you don't get it, I'm not sure I can help you.
.

You mean you can't empathize with a character and see yourself in that role unless you are of that demographic? That's curious, I have no such issues with Akira Kurosawa's films, and I am pretty sure I am not Japanese samurai from the 1600s.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
The short version is that being able to see yourself in these kinds of roles can be empowering and inspiring, and just plain feels good.

But how can anyone see themselves in anything other than Guard? You have nothing in common with marines, custodes, SoB, SoS, whatever. Nothing. If representation matters to you, you have one army choice.

Inspiration? So you can't be inspired by someone unless they share the same genes/gender/identity as you? That seems like a wholly intolerant belief system. Again, as a human male in 2024, I have *nothing* in common with the lowliest DA marine. Not even gender. It doesn't matter to me. Why does it matter to you.

 ruprecht wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So because bad faith actors have decided to hammer this into their carefully constructed “culture war”, this is bad?

When it impacts nothing?

Yes. Recreationally offended gender activists and Amazon producers with commercial and social agendas throwing culture grenades into 40k and branding genuine fans as bigoted gatekeepers for questioning the motives and method of the clear retcon is a bad thing.

So many pointless terms in there that are meaningless and lots of unproven claims.

Couple of notes, if GW were telling you that female custodes had always existed and they were a real historical thing then that would be gaslighting, if they were saying we always had them and they were in the fluff you just didn’t notice then changed the past texts to include them and said see, told you they were there, that’s would be gaslighting.

Saying that this thing we made up in our made up world always had made up men and women in it. Not gaslighting. Get over yourself. You are not. A victim of anything. No one is out to get you, a company is trying to make its product a bit more accessible to women, to make more money. It doesn’t stop you from buying it doesn’t stop you from enjoying your men hobby time. You lose nothing. If it makes you angry that a company should try and sell products to you and women then you need to look at why they makes you angry. You aren’t a victim, to think you are is pathetic.


Secondly. Let’s be clear, sisters of battle aren’t good examples of female representation. They are a man’s vision of what women could/should be. They are overly sexualised, fetish fantasy. Wanting to use them as the poster girls for inclusion shows just how badly some people on here don’t get it.

 ruprecht wrote:
But how can anyone see themselves in anything other than Guard? You have nothing in common with marines, custodes, SoB, SoS, whatever. Nothing. If representation matters to you, you have one army choice.

This in itself is kind of a bizarre thing to say. I'm not even talking about representation here, but the idea that there's nothing recognizable or relatable to us mere humans about the motivations of, say, Horus or Fulgrim or Ghazghkull or Eldrad or Farsight, that they're all completely alien and meaningless to us. At the end of the day, however alien these creatures' species are, they're still fictional characters written by mere humans like ourselves, and the stamp of their lowly origin is as pervasive as it is indelible.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

This in itself is kind of a bizarre thing to say. I'm not even talking about representation here, but the idea that there's nothing recognizable or relatable to us mere humans about the motivations of, say, Horus or Fulgrim or Ghazghkull or Eldrad or Farsight, that they're all completely alien and meaningless to us. At the end of the day, however alien these creatures' species are, they're still fictional characters written by mere humans like ourselves, and the stamp of their lowly origin is as pervasive as it is indelible.

I don't know who you think you're arguing with, but this is exactly my point. Any inspiration you find in the 40KCU has nothing to do with "representation" of a 21st century human, whatever their demographic. Representation has always been precisely zero in 40k, with the exception of Guard who are more than happy to throw you into the breach whatever your pronouns.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I think the whole idea of "having investment in 40k" the way you speak of is questionable. Who gets to decide what counts as sufficient investment? Is there a spending limit in dollars you have to meet? Do you have to win a tournament or a painting contest? Answer hard questions about the backstory?

I think for Space Marines its a special case because of how heavily they are used in the marketing for the game.

Other factions come and go and for the most part anyone on the "outside" of the hobby will generally only see Space Marines as the primary marketing with some marketing around the launch year of a new edition for whatever faction joins the Marines in the starter set (with an exception around Indomitus because the SoB did feature in that video).

So from a Marketing point of view its "all men" with limited women representation in the marketing material for the leading faction.



Now this isn't in isolation, but it might be one contributing factor in some pushing for women in the marines as an element. It's not that the "game" doesn't have them, just that the leading marketing doesn't have them.




Personally I see no harm save that it requires changing the lore; which can be done without ret-coning since you can just advance the lore. Indeed some suggested it could be a Primaris thing that Cawl does.
However I do think that its not as big a thing as some make out. I think that a bigger impact is the lack of women on the Warhammer marketing team in itself. When you watch the Warhammer + all the presenters are men; all the games are played by men; the only women who tend to last out are in the painting team and even then that's a bit hit and miss at present, esp since GW pulled back on painting icons there and even for a time went for just hands on show. I think what draws people in is seeing people they identify with having fun and being an accepted part of the community. I think that carries way way way more weight than anything else and I think its a huge shame that we don't have more women on GW's marketing team that we can see regularly and who are personalities within the industry.

And its a huge shame because we know there are women in their workforce. I just think that GW has always shielded/hidden many of its artists and sculptors and even painters and that's where the women are and why we don't hear of them and many I don't think push to get out of that area into the marketing side. So we end up with a very male team, which isn't bad, but its not as diverse as it could be and I think there is where diversity really makes a big impact on people.

 ruprecht wrote:
I don't know who you think you're arguing with, but this is exactly my point. Any inspiration you find in the 40KCU has nothing to do with "representation" of a 21st century human, whatever their demographic. Representation has always been precisely zero in 40k, with the exception of Guard who are more than happy to throw you into the breach whatever your pronouns.

If you think that was your point, I must offer my apologies for not accurately deciphering the oblique direction of your rhetorical assault. That being said, I don't think your argument is particularly persuasive or well-formed, and you seem to hold my contribution in equally low regard, so I don't see any alternative to declaring an impasse on this particular beachhead at this time and mustering my energies, limited as they are, elsewhere. I hope this resolution meets with your approval. If not, tough.

 ruprecht wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
The short version is that being able to see yourself in these kinds of roles can be empowering and inspiring, and just plain feels good.

But how can anyone see themselves in anything other than Guard? You have nothing in common with marines, custodes, SoB, SoS, whatever. Nothing. If representation matters to you, you have one army choice.

Inspiration? So you can't be inspired by someone unless they share the same genes/gender/identity as you? That seems like a wholly intolerant belief system. Again, as a human male in 2024, I have *nothing* in common with the lowliest DA marine. Not even gender. It doesn't matter to me. Why does it matter to you.

You know what? Let's do this.

I'm a trans woman. I started coming out about a year ago. If you'd asked me before then about Custodes and Gender, I might not have given it a second thought, but I'd like the think I'd have been nonchalant about the change. Because last week, I don't think I'd even registered it. Female Astartes is a slightly different case because that fight popped up every couple of years.

But transitioning has been an eye-opening experience. Part of the process has involved confronting and dealing with my previous male privileges and biases. I'm still working on it.

And, I find it interesting that you repeatedly claim you don't see Astartes as male or female, because they're transhuman. Astartes are created through an extensive process of psychological condition, drug therapy, and surgery to get desired body. My own transition has consited of psychological assistance, several hormone-altering prescriptions, and (likely, still undecided) surgery to get my desired body. So, in that respect, I can ABSOLUTELY identify with Custodes/Astartes.

So when I talk about representation, I know what the feth I'm talking about!

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 ruprecht wrote:
Sorry you have a reading disability.

It's not about what GW did, it's about why they did it.

It's about homogenising something cool into a grey, safe space to placate offence tourists and twentysomething Amazon producers who briefly turned their gaze on it while there was money or outrage to be had.

It's about those tourists completely missing the point. The Imperium of Space Racists are the bad guys.

Do you have any proof that that’s why they did this? Or perhaps people genuinely just wanted female Custodes and marines?

hello, it's me, the woman who already had a custodes army before this change


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 ruprecht wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Because representation matters.

Why? Help me understand why (insert demographic here) is important to be represented in (insert faction). I couldn't give one flying rat's ass that I'm not "represented" in any part of 40k except the Guard - in which I'm represented as a meatshield with a flashlight and a tshirt. Nobody is.

i am being represented and i am happy with it. do we need to justify it more than that? or does our happiness not matter


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 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 ruprecht wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
The short version is that being able to see yourself in these kinds of roles can be empowering and inspiring, and just plain feels good.

But how can anyone see themselves in anything other than Guard? You have nothing in common with marines, custodes, SoB, SoS, whatever. Nothing. If representation matters to you, you have one army choice.

Inspiration? So you can't be inspired by someone unless they share the same genes/gender/identity as you? That seems like a wholly intolerant belief system. Again, as a human male in 2024, I have *nothing* in common with the lowliest DA marine. Not even gender. It doesn't matter to me. Why does it matter to you.

You know what? Let's do this.

I'm a trans woman. I started coming out about a year ago. If you'd asked me before then about Custodes and Gender, I might not have given it a second thought, but I'd like the think I'd have been nonchalant about the change. Because last week, I don't think I'd even registered it. Female Astartes is a slightly different case because that fight popped up every couple of years.

But transitioning has been an eye-opening experience. Part of the process has involved confronting and dealing with my previous male privileges and biases. I'm still working on it.

And, I find it interesting that you repeatedly claim you don't see Astartes as male or female, because they're transhuman. Astartes are created through an extensive process of psychological condition, drug therapy, and surgery to get desired body. My own transition has consited of psychological assistance, several hormone-altering prescriptions, and (likely, still undecided) surgery to get my desired body. So, in that respect, I can ABSOLUTELY identify with Custodes/Astartes.

So when I talk about representation, I know what the feth I'm talking about!

i've said this elsewhere in the thread (or maybe the other thread), but like, considering what we can do with hormones here in 2024, and how much that makes the differences between biological sexes disappear, there's no reason why that should be any barrier whatsoever for the imperium 38,000 years in the future. HRT is already basically magic


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oh and also the topic of representation has me reminded of that one comic, "what if we make the world a better place for no reason". there's no downside for representation unless you hate the people being represented

Listen, as far as I'm concerned, steroid Wheaties are standard issue on Chapter Homeworlds.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

oh and also the topic of representation has me reminded of that one comic, "what if we make the world a better place for no reason". there's no downside for representation unless you hate the people being represented

We are talking about the same Imperium who don't arm the entire Guard with powerarmour because they consider it to be Holy item that only the sanctified can wear?
The same Imperium who use a main battle tank that's straight up a WW1/2 mashup that takes advantage of no advances in tank design in 38thousand years?
The same Imperium who consider technology a religion and where basic scientific approaches are often considered heathen?
The same Imperium where the techo-religion will have you executed for changing the configuration of your lasgun even if you've outright improved it, because you've changed it from the standard design template it was made from?


Forget the fact that the Imperium chooses not to make women into Marines; the fact that its been at war for 10thousand years and is only just getting the idea that perhaps they could just make, more marines to win, is nuts.

This is not a sane world; nor a sane faction operating as we would today. Almost everything is layered with mantra, dogma, religious connections and more. The Imperium could well not do a thing 'just because'

It is a fascist utopia making the world a better place is not the point of it

going by the in-universe story, the Emperor tried already everything in 38k years and what the Imperium now is, is what is said to be the only thing working
that is why there are no changes for 10k years, because never change a running system is taken literally on everything

and doing things for no reason is heresy and gets you, your family and everyone you know executed just to be save that this was not caused by chaos

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 ruprecht wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Because representation matters.

Why? Help me understand why (insert demographic here) is important to be represented in (insert faction). I couldn't give one flying rat's ass that I'm not "represented" in any part of 40k except the Guard - in which I'm represented as a meatshield with a flashlight and a tshirt. Nobody is.

The short version is that being able to see yourself in these kinds of roles can be empowering and inspiring, and just plain feels good.

Beyond that, it's impossible to argue empathy at you (or anyone else), so if you don't get it, I'm not sure I can help you.
.

You mean you can't empathize with a character and see yourself in that role unless you are of that demographic? That's curious, I have no such issues with Akira Kurosawa's films, and I am pretty sure I am not Japanese samurai from the 1600s.

I'm just like you. I've never felt the need to identify with fictional characters, whatever the medium. In the case of video games, I've always tended to make characters who looked absolutely nothing like me (and who weren't even an idealized version of myself !), both physically and psychologically.

But I'm actually in the minority. This was particularly obvious to me during the Baldur's Gate III beta, when the developers said on Twitter that the vast majority of players had recreated the typical human (who was male and white) when they gave the players the opportunity to customize tons of things. It took a while, but I finally understood that the vast majority of people in a society need to identify, to some extent, with the fictional characters they see (or play). It also happened with Breaking Bad : I loved all characters, but I sided firmly with Skyler White because despite her flaws, I think she was right. I was very surprised to discover that many fans hated her character (to the point of sending insults and threats to the actress) ... mostly because they identified with Walter White (who was a villain by the end of the show and who was never a particularly likable character even if I empathized with him).

So yes, representation is important. I think that's a mistake, because you have to be able to detach yourself from narratives (of all kinds) and fictional universes and their characters to understand what their creator(s) and/or author(s) meant. But that's just the way it is. It's human nature.

And this is coming from someone who thinks the addition of women to the Custodes is a good thing for 40K lore in general, even if it wasn't handled in the best of ways by GW. In my opinion, GW should have accompanied this evolution not only with the release of a miniature at the very least (rather than the horrible Shield-Captain) and a novel centered around a female Custodes.

But time heals all. People will get over it. And those who don't, well ... I wouldn't mind if those people leave the hobby forever.

 Overread wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

oh and also the topic of representation has me reminded of that one comic, "what if we make the world a better place for no reason". there's no downside for representation unless you hate the people being represented

We are talking about the same Imperium who don't arm the entire Guard with powerarmour because they consider it to be Holy item that only the sanctified can wear?
The same Imperium who use a main battle tank that's straight up a WW1/2 mashup that takes advantage of no advances in tank design in 38thousand years?
The same Imperium who consider technology a religion and where basic scientific approaches are often considered heathen?
The same Imperium where the techo-religion will have you executed for changing the configuration of your lasgun even if you've outright improved it, because you've changed it from the standard design template it was made from?


Forget the fact that the Imperium chooses not to make women into Marines; the fact that its been at war for 10thousand years and is only just getting the idea that perhaps they could just make, more marines to win, is nuts.

This is not a sane world; nor a sane faction operating as we would today. Almost everything is layered with mantra, dogma, religious connections and more. The Imperium could well not do a thing 'just because'

i meant the real world. i meant that representation makes the world we live in a better place. representation makes real life people happier. that's what matters here

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

oh and also the topic of representation has me reminded of that one comic, "what if we make the world a better place for no reason". there's no downside for representation unless you hate the people being represented

We are talking about the same Imperium who don't arm the entire Guard with powerarmour because they consider it to be Holy item that only the sanctified can wear?
The same Imperium who use a main battle tank that's straight up a WW1/2 mashup that takes advantage of no advances in tank design in 38thousand years?
The same Imperium who consider technology a religion and where basic scientific approaches are often considered heathen?
The same Imperium where the techo-religion will have you executed for changing the configuration of your lasgun even if you've outright improved it, because you've changed it from the standard design template it was made from?


Forget the fact that the Imperium chooses not to make women into Marines; the fact that its been at war for 10thousand years and is only just getting the idea that perhaps they could just make, more marines to win, is nuts.

This is not a sane world; nor a sane faction operating as we would today. Almost everything is layered with mantra, dogma, religious connections and more. The Imperium could well not do a thing 'just because'

i meant the real world. i meant that representation makes the world we live in a better place. representation makes real life people happier. that's what matters here

That's a bit of a broad sweeping statement. Representation is not some sort of worldwide panacea that makes everything better by trying to cram in every identity group you can think of and you've already shown that you want to exclude groups that exist but go against your worldviews which inherently shows that your premise is false, since otherwise you wouldn't care as more representation regardless of the type of representation should make you happy.

For example, I don't think you would fundamentally feel happier seeing furries showing up in your ads for Pepsi or fundamental religious Islamic text in your science text book. Or hell why not Dogstodes since dogs are critically underepresented in the game and owned by such a large number of people on the planet IRL, without having to resort to flanderizing via factions like Space Wolves.

Na mate, that's all part of the course, it's repressive tolerance.