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TL Assault Cannon Razorbacks and Vindicators have always been very very interesting to me, but the short range always seemed to be too limiting. But with fast vehicles, this is no longer a problem so without further ado:

Librarian 100
Blood Lance
Shield of Sanginius

Librarian 100
Blood Lance
Shield of Sanginius

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

Baal Predator 120
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

Baal Predator 120
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

Baal Predator 120
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

Vindicator 150
Dozer Blades

Vindicator 150
Dozer Blades

Vindicator 150
Dozer Blades

2000

Normally I would think that the dozer blades are a waste, but in this list, I intend everything to be moving 12" every single turn, skirting around opponents for side shots, and just bringing everything to bear into one spot on the table and crushing my opponent there before moving on. Losing mobility will hurt the list a lot, and the dozer blades allow me to just barrel right through terrain pieces my opponent would expect me to move around.The 6 armour 13 vehicles go in front, getting a 5+ cover save from the librarians, and the 6 razorbacks go behind with either a 4+ or 3+ depending on how close they are to tanks in front.

Yes, I am aware that the list has very short range, but I'm hoping the mobility and sheer amout of firepower in one spot will be able to overcome this. Thoughts? Do you think it could work?

EDIT: HERE IS THE NEW LIST, much improved if I do say so myself (with help from people here)

Librarian 100
Shield
Lance

Corbulo 105

Inquisitor 35
Emperors tarot

5 Assault Marines x6 990
Razorback
Lascannon/TL Plasmagun
Hunter Killer Missile

Baal Predator x3 345
Assault Cannon

Predator x2 290
Autocannon
Lascannon Sponsons
Hunter Killer Missile

Predator 135
Autocannon
Lascannon Sponsons

2000

It goes first 85% of the time, and it alpha strikes you. That's the plan. lol

Remember, to pen AV 14 with Assault Cannons with the average of say 3 hits per turn, you'll get an average of .5 6's and then you need a a 5-6 to pen or a 4-5 to glance. Against vehicles that don't let you roll that extra rending die (Eldar Grav Tanks) you're going to be hurting. I would switch 3 of the Razorbacks to Twin-Linked Lascannons for extra armor penetration ability.

It's basically a guaranteed hit each turn and with 3 of them you'll be able to pen AV every other turn. Not to mention easily destroy anything lower than that.

army lists like these are why I hate playing tyranid.

Actually the assault cannons are better than the lascannons against armour 14.

4 (shots) x .88 (to hit) x .16 (to rend) x .33 (to pen) = 19.8% chance to pen

1 (shot) x .88 (to hit) x .16 (to pen) = 14.8% chance to pen

The assault cannon is statistically superior against all armour values over the TL lascannon in all respects except for range. It is also much better against infantry as well.

Although I do admit that against eldar waveserpents (only the waveserpents have the ability, not all their grav tanks) I will have some frustration. I didn't think about that one, lol. Thank you for that. :]

If I were going to swap the assault cannons for anything, it would be Lascannon/TL Plasma Gun, but unfortunately this would change the whole playstyle of the list.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ hivefleetmonolith-

Eh, its definitely not an autowin against tyranids. If you fight tooth and nail for those cover saves, and you have a couple of tervigons to put FNP on your units, its going to be a pain to bring anything down. I think a well built tyranid list should at least give this a run for its money, and it should be close match.

Yeah I'm with the others in a few LCs will help you more against Wave Serpents and Monoliths and probably even MCs (certainly C'tan) than the assault cannons.

Other than that looks a pretty identikit SW list using BA fast vehicles to compensate and we all know how effective the wolves were with this type of list. THhough the Wolves have the advantage of Counter attack and boltguns, you have Baal Preds and Fast Vinidcators so should be a pretty awesome list.

Well. I already have the army. Their modeled as iron hands, and I used the space wolf book first, like you mentioned. But I just really didn't like the playstyle of staying still and shooting. Not moving my models= not much fun imo. Thats why I had the idea when I saw the new book.

The loss of boltguns doesn't really mean anything to me, I never shot them the whole time I played the wolves, and counter attack isn't that bad either because I think this list is actually more durable because of the armor 13, and blood angels' shield of sanginius is cast in my opponent's shooting phase, allowing me cover even when I don't go first.


any other thoughts guys?

I don't think shield of sanguinius works on vehicles...

You only have 9 fast TL Assault Cannons, only 9, and they're all stuck on vehicles... Frightening

Maybe it might be fair for you to have to go second?

thats a sick list

twalks- It says "all UNITS within 6 inches of the librarian recieve a 5+ cover save"

just like stormcaller does. So yes, you get a cover save on vehicles from shield of sanguinius.

rdlb- it is frightening, but I think the list does have the huge shortcoming of range. I can only work within 24" of you. (although I do admit its quite deadly once it gets there ;D lol)

and hey, I could add in an inquisitor with emperors tarot instead of some of the dozer blades for that added chance to get first turn if I really wanted.

Vehicles need to be obscured to receive a cover save..

A list like this is very mean, and I have thought about making one myself..

The Term

"Alternate sexual orientation"

comes to mind when viewing a list like this. But for flat out cheese it's hard to beat.

Throw in MM/HF land speeders and you have a perfect Ard Boys List.

Any thoughts on squeezing in a Sang Priest or 2 to make all your "troops" FNP?

yup, unfortunate as it is, your vehicles do indeed get a 5+ cover save, they just cant use it without being obscured =/

No. They recieve a 5+ cover save, just like the psychic power says it does. It says 'recieves a 5+ cover save', not 'counts as being in 5+ cover save piece of terrain' or some shenanigans like that. How can that be interpreted any differently?

You do not have to be obscured to recieve cover save on vehicle, you just have to be obscured to recieve a cover save on a vehicle from terrain or other models in the way.

Russel- I would much rather have the baal predators as my fast attack rather than the mm/hf speeders. Those are for either vanilla marines, or space wolves. If I were to bump it up to 2500 I would probably add a couple units of sternguard with a whole lot of combi-meltas and heavy flamers because that is something this list lacks.

I would love to put in sanguinary priests, and yes I am aware that they are a bargain for their points, but if I drop all the flamers and dozer blades I unfortunately only net 90 points, not enough for the pair that I would want/need in the army. I don't think its worth the trade. If my troops are forced out of their razorbacks I will unfortunately have to leave them behind if needed, and they will just sit on a piece of terrain, g2g, and hopefully hold on to my objective. The list can't afford to stay still.

Reread pg 60.

"If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it, exactly like a non-vehicle model would do against a wound.

twalks- I answered you over on the other thread, but I'll state it here for other's sake, because I don't want this to be missed.

The quote you have provided gives no support for your claim, it actually supports mine. There is more than one way for model to receive a cover save, and actually being in cover is just one of them. The part in the rulebook that states only that a vehicle must be obscured to claim to be in cover, not receive a cover save. There is a difference. You can get cover saves on a model by turboboosting with a bike, moving flat out with a skimmer, and being in range of a power or ability that grants you a cover save, just like stormcaller or SoS, and none of these require to be in cover.

I quoted the text from the rulebook.. It says if the target is obscured it can take a cover save.. Ie KFF says vehicles in range are obscured..

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/284466.page I put the question up in YMDC go ahead and state your case so I stop spamming the 2 threads..

Okay sir. Thank you, sorry for this banter, didn't really belong here tbh.

Jeez... Another endless argument

At any rate your list is still frightening, and no one has even mentioned the three fast vindicators, which are particularly frightening. Just have fun playing it and clear the 'issue' up with your opponent before each game, I'm sure it will be nasty and fun either way.

Is there anything else that you guys can think of that this list will have trouble with?

This list is great on paper, the only thing I see screwing it would be terrain that may cause it to bottleneck with all the tanks... but with the plows and the "fast " factor you should be ok, not to mention the complete lack of terrain at large events such as hard boyz, just practice your setup.

ig88- well, the plan was to use the librarians to give cover to the vehicles when there isn't much cover on the table... considering there now seems to be much debate over whether the shield will actually confer a cover save to the vehicles or not, I guess I will have to wait for the FAQ. And with the terrain, the whole reason I put the dozerblades on is so that I COULD just plow right through terrain pieces to get to where I needed, without having to worry so much.

I don't think it will have a problem with the 'bottleneck', and if needed I can just split the army in two wings- it divides quite nicely. I plan on having my first game with it tomorrow.

This seems like a frightening army to some extent, but it's horrendously vulnerable to certain units. What do you do if another person brings a shooty army and gets the first turn? What do you do against Land Speeder Typhoons who stay out of range? What do you do against Vendettas? What do you do against the SW version of this list, which outnumbers you in vehicles and also brings Long Fangs?

fetterkey- If the opponent get's first turn I either reserve, or I take the alpha strike on the chin, and refuse flank to make it so that some of his firepower is out of range, and move up in my turn to bring my own firepower to bear, and hope my cover saves hold out. The space wolf version of this list has 3 more land speeders, while this list has half of its tanks with front armour 13. I own the space wolf version of the list, and that's where I originally got the idea for this one. The Land speeder typhoon can stay out of range of a couple units, maybe, but there is no way they are going to avoid 12 fast moving vehicles, and the vendettas can only move 6 and continue to fire at full effect.

But because of all of this, what do you guys think of this list instead? It really goes against the whole playstyle that I wanted with the first list... but it is probably more effective..

I call it "Relentless"

Librarian 100
Blood Lance
Shield of Sanginius

Librarian 100
Blood Lance
Shield of Sanginius

5 Assault Marines 160
Flamer
Razorback
Lascannon/TL Plasmagun

5 Assault Marines 160
Flamer
Razorback
Lascannon/TL Plasmagun

5 Assault Marines 160
Flamer
Razorback
Lascannon/TL Plasmagun

5 Assault Marines 160
Flamer
Razorback
Lascannon/TL Plasmagun

5 Assault Marines 160
Flamer
Razorback
Lascannon/TL Plasmagun

5 Assault Marines 160
Flamer
Razorback
Lascannon/TL Plasmagun

Baal Predator 145
TL Assault Cannon
Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Baal Predator 145
TL Assault Cannon
Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Baal Predator 145
TL Assault Cannon
Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Predator 135
Autocannon
Lascannon Sponsons

Predator 135
Autocannon
Lascannon Sponsons

Predator 135
Autocannon
Lascannon Sponsons

2000

just move 6" every turn and fire continuously the whole way

Your above list is close to the one I am working on even as we speak and IMO is far superior to the vindicator variant.

Too easy to lose the only threat the vindicator has and there is really no need for all those dozer blades.

50/50 on the Baals taking flamestorm cannons too. With the scout move they basically wipe horde armies off the table if you get turn one.

Also need to throw Corbulo in there to give an extra shot at going first.

To get lean and mean drop a lib.

I really do find assault cannons to be the bees knees and would rather take them then lascannons. And I thought eldar had the rule to not allow 2d6 pen not ignoring rending as well?

blood angel- Yes, I agree that it is superior than the vindicator variant, I just prefer the playstyle of being able to move very quickly, while the above list like I said, has a more 'relentless' feel instead. I will have to play both though. I didn't think about the possibilities of the combination of corbulo and an emperors tarot inquisitor.. hmm. I am unsure as to where to get the points for this though. The librarian isn't enough, I would have to drop points elsewhere as well. I know the dozer blades aren't really necessary, but they are nice for the ability to be able to go anywhere and take full advantage of the mobility without having to worry.

So I'm guessing that everyone is going to agree that the "Relentless" list is far superior to the vindicator one? I had both written out, I just think the vindi's would be more fun...

You have too many troop choices in there. Your points can come from there. I doubt you'll need any more than 4 AS/RB combos.

That gives you 420 pnts? Enough for a unit of th/sh terminators a pod and Corbulo easy right?

Protoman- It states 'all ranged attacks never roll more than 1d6 for armour penetration' so rending unfortunately does not work against them.

and no, there is no such thing as 'too many troop choices'. Lol. When your troop choices don't suck, you take as many as you can- that's six of them. Trust me, play an objective game with max troop choices. It allows you to be very aggressive in your playstyle, while lists that have fewer troop choices are forced to be more conservative. This is a very good thing, it gives you control over the flow of the game, and allows you to get max battle points in tournaments (which this list is intended) because you actually can reliably get at least 4 objectives if you play smart.

Ok, I realize you have no idea about my background as a player. I understand the need for as many troop choices as you can get when they are decent. What I am telling you is that they are not going to be the workhorses of your army and so while you might want to get aggressive with them they will never do the work that a squad of terminators dropped in the enemy ranks the first turn will do.

Your opponent basically has to turn some of their high powered weapons on them therefore reducing the fire they are able to send down range at your preds. They 'choose their poison' and they can't possibly just ignore the terminators.

Even if you drop down to 5 choices and wax one of the Libs that gives you 260 pnts to play with, enough to take Corbulo and other priests to beef up your 'aggressive assault squads.'