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Hi just got back from having my ass handed to me by Kairos Fateweaver and a whole TONNE of flamers of Tzeentch (plus 2 soulgrinders)

My army needs to be rethought methinks. More FIREPOWER needed.

Army as it stood;

Librarian w/ Terminator Armour & Storm Shield 140

Terminators w/ TH& SS x 2 400

x 2 Land Raider Crusaders w/ MM 520

Tactical Squad w/ PF, Combi-M, MG and ML
in Rhino 245

Tactical Squad w/ PS, Flamer & ML in Rhino 220

Scout squad w/ ML, SRs, & Camo 100

Predator w/ Lascannon Sponsons 120


I found I was seriously lacking firepower, and with Kairos using his special ability to reroll failed invulnerable saves even Null Zone was ineffective!

So I need some serious advice to make my army a bit more survivable.

any suggestions?

I'm thinking of losing the terminators or changing them to tactical terminators and losing land raiders

Well, I do deamons myself actually and did they have plaguebears??

no it was a tzeentch army

Kairos Fateweaver
2 Soulgrinders
3 squads of Flamers (5 man each)
The Changeling with a squad of horrors (10 man)
2 squads of Pink Horrors

Nice, well I dont know what to suggest for that, defiantly for the flamers, there bloody good aye

Well I'm thinking of changing my list to:

HQ

Corennus
Librarian
Terminator Armour w/ Storm Shield
Null Zone & Might of Ancients
140

ELITES
Terminator Assault Squad (5 man)
X 5 Thunder Hammers / Storm Shields
DT: Land Raider w/ Multi Melta
460
Dreadnought
T-L Lascannon
Missile Launcher
145

Dreadnought
T-L Lascannon
Missile Launcher
145


TROOPS
Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Melta
Melta Gun
Missile Launcher
Rhino
220

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Plasma
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
Rhino
225

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Bolter
Flamer
Missile Launcher
170

Tactical Squad

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator
Lascannon Sponsons
120

Predator
Lascannon Sponsons
120

1750

With Dreadnoughts and Predators I can put down some serious firepower, along with Godhammer (though can change that to crusader or even redeemer)





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Proposed new list:

HQ
Valeric Justinius (Counts as Pedro Kantor)
175
Gaius Calcifer
Librarian
Power Armour w/ Bolt Pistol
Null Zone & Avenger
110

ELITES
Sternguard (7 man)
X 7 Combi-Weapons
210
DT: Rhino w/ HK 45

Sternguard Squad (7 man)
X 7 Combi-Weapons
210
DT: Rhino w/ HK 45

Sternguard Squad (7 man)
X 7 Combi-Weapons
210
DT: Rhino w/ HK 45
TROOPS
Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Melta
Melta Gun
Missile Launcher
Rhino w/ HK
230

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Melt
Melta Gun
Missile Launcher
Rhino w/ HK
230
HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator
Lascannon Sponsons
120

Predator
Lascannon Sponsons
120

1750


Playing to my strengths this time.
LOTS AND LOTS OF FIREPOWER

As mentioned on msn the list is ok, it's your tactics. You let Daemons go second so you've lost a turn of shooting at them and you have mobility in tanks but you kept them still....

You should have torrented Fateweaver with krak rockets, blasted Soul Grinders with multi meltas and send Terminators at Fateweaver or infantry with the Librarian casting nullzone. Target priority is key; kill Fateweaver, Soul Grinders and Flamers and then nothing to threaten your armour which means you're safe.

New list looks pretty cool though 8)

I've had success with plasma spam. razorbacks with combat squads x3 plasma gun/plasma cannon sergeants with power fists. 3 dreads, 1 las/las pred. 1-2 land speeders melta/melta (kills crushers). for hq I take chappy with plasma pistol and attach him to a 2 plasma pistol assault squad.

The key here is placement; control where your opponent can DS with your placement and terrain. Keep squads in rhinos and razorbacks and heavies in the open near/inside terrain. Dreads have a good chance vs. most of what daemons have to throw at you. Focus fire on DPs and flamers (I hate flamers) and try to take out any icons as soon as possible so he actually has to roll for DSs.

/2 cents

mercer wrote:As mentioned on msn the list is ok, it's your tactics. You let Daemons go second so you've lost a turn of shooting at them and you have mobility in tanks but you kept them still....

You should have torrented Fateweaver with krak rockets, blasted Soul Grinders with multi meltas and send Terminators at Fateweaver or infantry with the Librarian casting nullzone. Target priority is key; kill Fateweaver, Soul Grinders and Flamers and then nothing to threaten your armour which means you're safe.

New list looks pretty cool though 8)

Why bother with krak missiles on FW? I'd assume you'd be better off boltering him until he runs away.

In fact, that's pretty much the answer for most of the daemon codex: massed fire takes daemons down. Thankfully, your new list does seem to do that better. Against Tzeentch daemons, you can also just tie them up in CC.

Also, lascannons are almost pointless against daemons, unless that's your anti-SG.

For stenies maybe some flamers?

Most Tzeentch stuff is T3, so a flamer would do wonders. Especially since they have clumped up in nice little circles.

were fond of saying "your list dosent suck, you do" You dont need to re tool your list everytime you get beat you just need to learn how to play your army. (unless your list does suck) Problem 31 most people have with deamons is that very few people run them so very few people know how to fight them or even what they do. They see all this nasty stuff and just sort of go crazy trying to work out target priority. Its like fighting eldar you have to learn what to shoot and when after you figure that out your job gets easier.

Fate weaver=shoot at him until he runs away or you kill him (both are still hard) heres the dillema hes a 3+ invul with re-roll so its hard to get a wound on him and his LD is 9 so hes not likely to run away. But that is the strategy against him.

with all the flamers you really just have to weather the storm and then go bash their heads in.

Now if he had the standard fate weaver + letters +crushers +horrors then youd be screwed.
fate weaver is a lot of points to basically ensure your nasty stuff survives the turn of shooting so they can charge next turn, hes 330 points so he costly insurance, shoot the hell out of him ignore everything else and your job becomes 50% easier.

Just cast Null Zone constantly.

For Fateweaver and anyone in his circle it means they roll saves, pick up the dice regardless of result and roll them again.

For the people not in his circle, they now have about a 25% chance of dying.

See that isn't the Fate-Crusher list, so really you don't need to change much. The big thing is you have to kill the units to a man ASAP because daemons are basicly set up to ruin SM. Flamers are only scary if you are not inside of your transport so stay inside as long as you can. He also has only 2 sets of troops and they are pretty squishy so they should be pretty easy to splatter.

Right last tweak of new list. This is mainly to go against all comers now. But this also deals with damemons.

HQ
Valeric Justinius (Counts as Pedro Kantor)
175

Gaius Calcifer
Librarian
Power Armour w/ Plasma Pistol
Null Zone & Vortex of Doom
115

ELITES
Legion of the Damned (5 man)
Combi-Melta & Powerfist
Multi-Melta
Meltagun
240

Sternguard Squad (6 man)
X 6 Combi-Plasma
180
DT: Razorback w/ T-L Lascannon 75

Sternguard Squad (6 man)
X 6 Combi-Plasma
180
DT: Razorback w/ T-L Lascannon 75

TROOPS
Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Plasma
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
Rhino w/ HK
235

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Plasma
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
Rhino w/ HK
235

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator
Lascannon Sponsons
120

Predator
Lascannon Sponsons
120

1750


Melta is dealt with by having Legion of the Damned deep striking when needed and a tactical squad attached with librarian (to deal with pesky daemons and such by shooting Vortex).
Sternguard have razorbacks giving more lascannon support and combi-weapons. so they'll get to an objective and then get out and keep firing.
Pedro goes with the plasma tactical squad.

I dislike combi plasma on steinguard... Beter to drop some and add combi meltas... Plasma will just get you killed

As for the rest you seriously lack anti-infantry... I'd drop leagon of the damn and add perhaps typhoons... you could have 2 of them blasting 4 blasts and 6 str 5 shots from far away...
And perhaps flamer on tacs(drop the plasma gun in one squad for sure, they are not as usefull as meltagun)? I mean meltagun is great, but you already are weak vs infantry (i'm not saying heavy infantry, but what if you get across kanz wall with 90 orks? You'd be dead before you know it)...

And one last thing? Where would you put HQ? Rhinos with tacs are full, and razorbacks with sterns are full too?

P.S. I just spotted razorbacks with T-L lascannon... Sterns are already dangerous, so adding lascannon on AV11 which carries dangerous unit is like asking your enemy to blast them first... I'd stick with HB and use pts form 310 pts better (from legion and lascannons)... You can add lc to tacs and then combat squad vs mech heavy armies...

Rhinos can take 12 models.

Nope... Check your codex... Rhino's transporting capacity is 10, razorback 6 and drop pod 12....

Legion of the Damned is so I can deep strike them and melta them pesky stuff like LAND RAIDER when needed.

Sternguard is using combi-plasma cause sometimes even their cool ammo needs a little bit extra firepower.

Razorbacks........I could take HB, but I like more lascannons.

remember all you have is an invuln wit Legionaires and you might loose that against some demons.

I don't know... 240pts for suicide squad which has to deep strike (ok, not so bad cuz of the reroll)? I'd rather go with landspeeder then... Much cheaper... And if steins carry comb-meltas too you wouldn't have to worry about land-raider

they can for only a few pts apiece. but thats a 200 pt suicide as well for maybe popping one or two vehicles. they have nothing in CC except maybe one PW

Oh, and vortex is heavy weapon... You can't move and fire it... So better to take avenger cuz wherever you put libby, he won't be able to use it correctly...

i'm also going with legion cause I only have one speeder model and no intention of buying any more soon.

Powers on Librarian are changeable. I normally go Null Zone/Avenger but I like Might of Ancients too.


As far as the razorbacks go i just wanted more lascannons. long range firepower is paramount to me (although agaisnt Chaos Daemons the Sternguard will be even more important). I can always swap them for Rhinos and give sternguard more men.

Well, Chaos Daemons can be handled by an SM army.
You need firepower, mobility, and numbers, in this order.
Two LRs are overkill.
Take an LRC with Assault Termies (TH/SS only, please) and go for the biggest threat.
Put the rest in Rhinos, no units without transport please such as Scouts.
I'd consider as many Rhinos squads as possible.
Add two or three Predators with autocannon, 2 lascannons/ heavy bolters.

Chinchilla wrote:Oh, and vortex is heavy weapon... You can't move and fire it... So better to take avenger cuz wherever you put libby, he won't be able to use it correctly...

Yeah, vortex has that problem, unless you take termie armor... Then you get the relentless special rule IIRC

Well I've jiggled my list a bit, and dropped the lascannons, letting me take:

HQ
Valeric Justinius (Counts as Pedro Kantor)
AP 4 Storm Bolter & Powerfist
175

Gaius Calcifer
Librarian
Power Armour w/ Bolt Pistol & Force Sword
Null Zone & Avenger
100

ELITES
Legion of the Damned (5 man)
Combi-Melta & Powerfist
Multi-Melta
Meltagun
240

Sternguard Squad (6 man)
X 2 Combi-Flamer
X 2 Combi-Plasma
X 2 Combi-Melta
180
DT: Razorback w/ T-L HB 40

Sternguard Squad (6 man)
X 3 Combi-Flamer
X 2 Combi-Plasma
X 1 Combi-Melta
180
DT: Razorback w/ T-L HB 40

TROOPS
Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Melta
Melta Gun
Missile Launcher
Rhino w/ HK
230

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Plasma
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
Rhino w/ HK
235

FAST ATTACK
Landspeeder
Typhoon Missile Launcher
Heavy Bolter
90

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator
Lascannon Sponsons
120

Predator
Lascannon Sponsons
120

1750


Landspeeder Typhoon gives me mobility and Long Range firepower. it was either that or a scout squad (not good) or giving rhinos extra armour (a waste of points)

He's got two units of T3 4+ save troops that have to be on the ground. Blast them and 2/3 of the games are already won.

As mentioned, Sternguard will hellfire rounds makes Fateweaver go away in a hurry.

Well I now have my sternguard kitted out to be versatile. with special ammo and combi-weapons capable of taking out anything.

Hellfire rounds wounding on a 2+ definately hurt.

Especially with Nul Zone in effect.

Although Null Zone and Kairos is weird cause:

Kairos takes 3 wounds.

Rolls to save. Fails two saves.

Has to reroll the passed save (Null Zone)

rerolls the failed saves (his own power).

End result usually: NO WOUNDS!

Well, Legion of the Damned is questionable. You certainly don't need them.
I'd give all Sternguard Vets in a squad the same kind of combi-weapons,
otherwise their combi-shooting is a bit diluted.
You could take 4 combi-plasmas/combi-meltas and 2 heavy flamers per squad.

I don't like Heavy Flamers on sternguard cause then you lose the special ammo.

But I see the wisdom of having them as a "dedicated" combi-weapon group.

OK.....
2 Combi-Flamers for anti-infantry defence per squad
4 Combi-Melta on one squad
4 Combi-Plasma on other.


Legion of the Damned is there to be a vehicle killer that can deep strike in right where I need it and then melta the offending vehicle.

My thought is this:

Legion of the Damned Deep Strike in 12" from biggest vehicle in the enemy's army to use Multi-Melta with 2D6 Penetration.
If that doesn't work they have 5+ Inv Save to weather next turn where they can try again with MM or move 6" and fire melta and combi-melta.