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Hey Dakka, I'm not good with space marine balencing, but I have a few ideas for Dark Angels. The Deathwing is sapposed to be the most awesome of Terminators, so why not have them be the only Terminators to have grenades. The Ravenwing have really awesome Stormravens as a Heavy choice, maybe a flying Landraider. Hope you like my ideas!

I think the fearless and the ability to mix an assault terminator squad with a tactical terminator squad is what shows deathwing to be the 'best' of the loyalist terminators. Whether or not they get to play with grenades while other terminators don't isn't such a big deal.

And I don't quite follow the second half, do you actually want a land raider with wings? Or ravenwing to have access to slightly modified Stormravens? You could give them access to a stormraven which could transport bikes (remove the dread carriage space, enlarge the area so it can hold a squad of 5 or 6 bikers, attack bikes counting as two), or something along those lines...

Maybe you should wack up a more detailed outline of what you want? maybe in a space by space manner, e.g.

HQ

This, this, this and this

ELITES

A, B, C and D

TROOPS

Shiny thing 1, Dakka thing 2

You get what I mean, put your thoughts and wants out there in a well structured fashion, it'll be easier to address and evaluate them then.

The Dark Angels should not have Sternguard or Vanguard vets however their Ravenwing should stand out more. Perhaps a base line with A2 and open to the options presented to Vanguard vets.

Otherwise the codex is not too bad in comparison to SM. The ability to have a SW in a 5-man squad is balancing out to the other options that SM have.

Otherwise it is updates.
1. Real Power of the Machine Spirit
2. Librarians with LD 10
3. Full razorback options.

DAaddict wrote:The Dark Angels should not have Sternguard or Vanguard vets however their Ravenwing should stand out more. Perhaps a base line with A2 and open to the options presented to Vanguard vets.

Otherwise the codex is not too bad in comparison to SM. The ability to have a SW in a 5-man squad is balancing out to the other options that SM have.

Otherwise it is updates.
1. Real Power of the Machine Spirit
2. Librarians with LD 10
3. Full razorback options.

The DA codex is overcosted by 10% in most cases. LRC, standard LR and Typhoon Speeders not included. Deathwing can work well but Tactical Marines costs more and are worse (No combat tactics) compared to Vanilla marines.
Dark Angels DO however have the real PotMS already.

I believe the wording of POtMS has been updated but I don;t believe a DA Landraider has the same BS. I believe they are still plagued by a "dumb" POtMS with BS 2.

The 10% overcosting can be compensated for with some of the few advantages. 20% discount on typhoons. REAL dual purpose librarians and chaplains. Special weapons in 5-man squads. Cheaper Veterans than sternguard. There is not a lot of options but in a restricted sense a DA army can still be made that can be competitive - not overpowering- but competitive enough where you can take advantage of the few bonuses of your codex to make it work.

i think a light (5-10%) reduction in Assault Marines tacs is in order

a fleshing out of vet options (i.e. jumppacks, relic blades,etc. )

razorback potions.

Land RAider redeemer addition (or land raider ares special unit.)

MORTIS DREADS

asmodai

and make adjustments in hq statlines to bring us inline wite other space marines

DAaddict wrote:I believe the wording of POtMS has been updated but I don;t believe a DA Landraider has the same BS. I believe they are still plagued by a "dumb" POtMS with BS 2.

The 10% overcosting can be compensated for with some of the few advantages. 20% discount on typhoons. REAL dual purpose librarians and chaplains. Special weapons in 5-man squads. Cheaper Veterans than sternguard. There is not a lot of options but in a restricted sense a DA army can still be made that can be competitive - not overpowering- but competitive enough where you can take advantage of the few bonuses of your codex to make it work.

No, the DA PotMS is not dumb. Not anymore, the wording is the exact same as the one in the Vanilla dex (Except is says Vehicle instead of Land Raider).
Where do you have these dual purpose Librarians? Sure thei have + 1i, + 1A but can not take a storm shield which is a huge drawback if you want them to be in CC. Not to mention that they cost 20pts more and have the dreadful ld9 issue, making thier hodds quite worthless.
Chaplins are better tho.

5 Man squads can take a special weapon, that is nice. A normal squad can take a combi weapon which is pretty much just as nice. You will not get to shoot the special weapon that often in a 5 man squad. If you take a full 10 mansquad you are looking at paying ~10pts more in the DA codex for worse marines (No CT).

Veterans are chaper beacuse they are alot worse. If you take combis they costs just as much as Sternguard and then you lose out on special ammo and combat tactics.

Ohwell, not my intention to highjack this thread. Sorry for that.

As I said they have options but they are very restricted.
Veterans with stormshields come to mind... 28 pts for a 3++ save now outfitted for HTH combat they can be definitely cheaper than an equivalent Vanguard vet. Now they have no firepower option that will even come close to a sternguard option. Admittedly they will cost more when outfitted with PW or PF or the like in comparison to Deathwing but we are also not talking the automatic +250 for a landraider to mechanize it.

Don't get me wrong, I hope that DA will get a new codex soon and restore a lot of options to them but they are not that bad in comparison to SM. SW - due to the freebie counterattack - not so much but DA are not dead in the water.

DAaddict wrote:As I said they have options but they are very restricted.
Veterans with stormshields come to mind... 28 pts for a 3++ save now outfitted for HTH combat they can be definitely cheaper than an equivalent Vanguard vet. Now they have no firepower option that will even come close to a sternguard option. Admittedly they will cost more when outfitted with PW or PF or the like in comparison to Deathwing but we are also not talking the automatic +250 for a landraider to mechanize it.

Don't get me wrong, I hope that DA will get a new codex soon and restore a lot of options to them but they are not that bad in comparison to SM. SW - due to the freebie counterattack - not so much but DA are not dead in the water.

where do you get 28 pts from by my calcutlations with chainsword stormshield its 35 a model

+10 for SS and then the power weapon. To my figure that is going to make them cost 43 points - more than a TH+SS termie but for a limited counterattack unit, not bad.
They are not going to be "cheap" to the point you are going to spam them but they are cheaper than an equivalent vanguard vet.

A Veteran is 20 pts naked, so 30 Pts with a SS. The fact that Veterans are better than quite possible the worst unit in the SM dex (sans Servitors maybe) means very little when arguing that DA has something besides DW on the Vanilla Dex.

OT (for once):
DA must get the Mortis dread aas an option, it is OUR dread typ for feths sake.

Dual heavies in Tactical squads could also be a possibility. That or a single move and shot heavy.

Plasma galore would also be most welcome.

Jetbike command squad could be interesting imo.

Hey I am not by any means saying that DA codex is OP or even great. I am saying there are some small things that make it possible to play with and win.

If we want to get down to brass tacks, the only thing that is competitive nowadays is Deathwing. I am just saying for those who like the greater Dark Angels, it is not all gloom and doom. There is some light just it may be 40W and not a 120W bulb like Space Wolves.

There are a few ideas for Dark Angels I had been hashing out in consideration of creating a Dark Angel fandex, aside from the obvious changes:

- Deathwing can be 10-men and can Combat Squad. That means, if there's 1 Heavy Weapon for every 5 DW, you can have a squad packing 2 Heavy Weapons and the other squad equipped for CC.

- Orientation to ranged weaponry and combat:
-- Instead of combat/chapter tactics, Dark Angels may re-roll to-hit rolls of one; improves marksmanship, orientates to ranged combat, improves plasma, increases stubbornness.
-- Modified Storm-raven flier with increased armour and better/different weapons but decreased transport capacity.

- Deathwing Termies WS5 and/or with special ammo.

- Special sword/CCW; obsidian, carved from the obsidian on the edges of the rock that formed as caliban fractured. I won't detail my in-game intention, but it would cost 25pts instead of 15 for a power weapon. Azreal would have a Relic-blade equivalent.

- Mortis Dreads

- Unique Weapons (Rapier Gatling Laser for example)

- Lances for Ravenwing command squad.

And some other things...

Just Dave wrote:There are a few ideas for Dark Angels I had been hashing out in consideration of creating a Dark Angel fandex, aside from the obvious changes:

- Deathwing can be 10-men and can Combat Squad. That means, if there's 1 Heavy Weapon for every 5 DW, you can have a squad packing 2 Heavy Weapons and the other squad equipped for CC.

- Orientation to ranged weaponry and combat:
-- Instead of combat/chapter tactics, Dark Angels may re-roll to-hit rolls of one; improves marksmanship, orientates to ranged combat, improves plasma, increases stubbornness.
-- Modified Storm-raven flier with increased armour and better/different weapons but decreased transport capacity.

- Deathwing Termies WS5 and/or with special ammo.

- Special sword/CCW; obsidian, carved from the obsidian on the edges of the rock that formed as caliban fractured. I won't detail my in-game intention, but it would cost 25pts instead of 15 for a power weapon. Azreal would have a Relic-blade equivalent.

- Mortis Dreads

- Unique Weapons (Rapier Gatling Laser for example)

- Lances for Ravenwing command squad.

And some other things...

Please please please write a DA fandex Just Dave, I would be a guaranteed win, and you would make DA even more fun to play.

HA! Thanks man, but the Codex: Space Marines boat has set sail instead...

Wait.. I assume that means you are making a SM codex? That is awesome.

Thanks for the input guys I was originally thinking of RW having a 14 all around Stormraven but, now I don't think they need it. I'll begin fleshing out a fandex. based off of the input here.

I would like to see the addition of the Stormraven as well, a perfect Heavy Support for the Ravenwing. Having the Mortis Dreadnought would be nice as well, since we invented the dang thing lol, pretty much everything Just Dave said.

One interesting option I saw was 10-man Deathwing Terminator squads, but when you took the MotDW, you could take 5-man squads as troop choices to represent the combat squad-ing of Terminator squads to fulfill tactical roles.

One last thing, A variant of the Predator with an Executioner Cannon (from the IG Codex). The Blood Angels have the Predator Baal , we have the Predator Caliban .

Give them cheaper plasma

Ore at least thats what everyone usually says when it comes to dark angels. Dont ask me why

From fluff, supposedly the oldest chapter has access to extra weird stuff. I have heard a couple of proposals that sound good.

Plasma on the cheap: A 5 pt discount on plasma pistols and rifles and a 10 pt discount on plasma cannons.

Swordsmen: A DA with a chainsword or power weapon gains a reroll to hit.

Marksmen: (Replaces chapter tactics) Reroll any 1s to hit.

Stubborn: (Like they used to have when stubborn wasn't always a good thing)

The other that I hold hope for is to replace Ravenwing with all the stat lines of vanguard vets along with their options.

Sternguard eliminated - perhaps allow Deathwing to select one special round for the game.

Any of these would set the DA appart however I think the option that would set them best would be ones that would set them up as a shooty variant.

It would actually be kind of awesome if you could select Marksmen (re-roll shooting 1 to hits) or Swordsmen for specific units in place of chapter tactics.

Swordsmen should be different than just master-crafted though, it should be like the old parry rules. In hand to hand combat, force your enemy to re-roll 1 hit against the unit per each model with "Swordsmen". Enemy's choice on which hits they re-roll, so their hidden power fist hits or their rending hits will still stand.

Edit:
The Swordsmen special rule should be limited though. The Dark Angels aren't noted as being hand-to-hand combat beasts, just knight-like. Maybe just for command squads, and the models actually have to take double-handed swords to benefit from it (to keep your meltagunner from packing a sword as well and counting as a swordsman).

Lord Magnus wrote:Wait.. I assume that means you are making a SM codex? That is awesome.

Yes, yes I am. And yes, hopefully it will be.

DAaddict wrote:From fluff, supposedly the oldest chapter has access to extra weird stuff. I have heard a couple of proposals that sound good.

Plasma on the cheap: A 5 pt discount on plasma pistols and rifles and a 10 pt discount on plasma cannons.

Swordsmen: A DA with a chainsword or power weapon gains a reroll to hit.

Marksmen: (Replaces chapter tactics) Reroll any 1s to hit.

Stubborn: (Like they used to have when stubborn wasn't always a good thing)

The other that I hold hope for is to replace Ravenwing with all the stat lines of vanguard vets along with their options.

Sternguard eliminated - perhaps allow Deathwing to select one special round for the game.

Any of these would set the DA appart however I think the option that would set them best would be ones that would set them up as a shooty variant.

Nice ideas.