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I was thinking about cheap scoring mini-fire bases (using Coteaz as the hq obvoiusly).

For 100 points I could take either of these:

5 Warrior Acolytes
Las/Plas Razorback

OR

5 Warrior Acolytes (3 with meltaguns)
Psybolt Ammo Razorback


Everyone online seems to be in love with the psybolt heavy bolter razors - I am wondering if the las/plas option is really that much worse? I feel like GK could use some AP1-2 that has a range bigger than a foot.

The reason people choose option B is because of the "With 3 meltaguns" part.

That is the best way GK can deal with AV 14.

heavy bolters have a 36" range

Ive had good experience with melta warriors, and stormbolter warriors w/jokero

if you're looking at tabling your opponent though, you cant beat a heavy bolter razorback with 5 or 6 bare bones warriors in it, spamming those gives you plenty of points for more and more guns

Grundz wrote:heavy bolters have a 36" range

Ive had good experience with melta warriors, and stormbolter warriors w/jokero

I am guessing that was in a chimera. Did you find chimeras to work alright? They don't have that ridiculous fortitude power like the rhinos and razorbacks do.

Also, since Coteaz has to be in these lists, do you ever use MM servitors in a chimera with Coteaz as fire support? 30 points for 3 24 inch range melta sounds pretty good....

labmouse42 wrote:The reason people choose option B is because of the "With 3 meltaguns" part.

That is the best way GK can deal with AV 14.

Incorrect. Psycannons are our answer to AV14. Mathhammer states they are one of the best weapons in the game against AV14.

Jaon wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:The reason people choose option B is because of the "With 3 meltaguns" part.

That is the best way GK can deal with AV 14.

Incorrect. Psycannons are our answer to AV14. Mathhammer states they are one of the best weapons in the game against AV14.

And experience has taught me that it's not reliable enough against av14. admittedly I will persevere with it because according to the maths it should be great although I am starting to come to the conclusion that unless you can put out 8 shots per squad it's just not going to be as reliable as melta. so 5 relentless paladins are great but you cant always bank on purifiers being able to stand still. still not worked out a way to fit purgation squads in a list yet either.

Reliable as melta? Surely you left out the part where melta is great within 6 inches, but psycannons have 24 inch range?

Looking purely at the numbers ignores the additional 18 inches (12 if you count the full non 2d6 pen melta range) that psycannons get...

"One of the best" in the sense that the only other choice is melta, which completely dwarfs all other ranged weapons in ability to penetrate AV14 at short range. Melta gets over 50% penetration out of hits (and is AP1) while lascannons, psycannons and assault cannons are all down in the less-than-16% range. Oh, and lances in the 33% range.

But henchmen can't take psycannons anyway, so the answer is irrelevant for the OP. Henchmen can take melta--including multimeltas in units led by Corteaz and maybe also a second inquisitor--and those are probably pretty good units for the points as long as you don't get too carried away with space monkey toys.

Joe Mama wrote:

Grundz wrote:heavy bolters have a 36" range

Ive had good experience with melta warriors, and stormbolter warriors w/jokero

I am guessing that was in a chimera. Did you find chimeras to work alright? They don't have that ridiculous fortitude power like the rhinos and razorbacks do.

Also, since Coteaz has to be in these lists, do you ever use MM servitors in a chimera with Coteaz as fire support? 30 points for 3 24 inch range melta sounds pretty good....

stormbolters go in chimera so you can have the big squad melta and others go in razorback, the heavy bolter razorback is just straight up the best deal.

To give you an idea, here's an 1850 tourney list I ran undefeated

Croteze
Librarian, might of titans, sancuary, shrouding

5 paladins, 2 incinerators

5 warrior henchmen, 4 stormbolters, razorback w/ heavy bolter/psybolt
5 warrior henchmen, 4 stormbolters, razorback w/ heavy bolter/psybolt
5 warrior henchmen, 4 stormbolters, razorback w/ heavy bolter/psybolt
4 warrior henchmen, 4 stormbolters, razorback w/ heavy bolter/psybolt

5 death cult assassins, 5 crusaders

Stormraven, TL plasma cannon, TL ulti melta, searchlight
Stormraven, TL plasma cannon, TL ulti melta, searchlight

Dread, autocannon, autocannon, psybolt
Dread, autocannon, autocannon, psybolt
Dread, autocannon, autocannon, psybolt


As you can see, the list is just massive fire support and 2 big close combat deathstars, this is probably the sort of thing henchmen should be doing and sort of how I used to run my GK when I ran them as allies (guard as support, and then one squad of the emperors finest killing machines to sort of emphisize how awesome they are compared to crappy guardsmen.. XD) and it is a /Very/ strong army for what it does.
You cant really do much else with warrior henchmen, they lack the big squads of guard, the MEQ of guard, if you spend points on armor and such they end up being too pricey and you'd be better off with strike squads.

Ive been meaning to try out hotshot lasguns in chimeras, could be amusing since they are low STR you can fire a hail of shots from chimera on the move (I think, need to re-read firepoints in BRB)

That list does look very tough indeed.

Question, did you start your henchmen in the razorbacks?
How often did you disembark in order to use the stormbolers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flavius Infernus wrote: Henchmen can take melta--including multimeltas in units led by Corteaz and maybe also a second inquisitor--and those are probably pretty good units for the points as long as you don't get too carried away with space monkey toys.

3 MM guys is 30 points. Throw in 5 weenie guys for another 20-25 (pistols or bolters). Plus chimera is 105-110. Needs a babysitter, but that is prety darn cheap. 1 Jokeroo doesn't bump the cost up too much, but I am not sure he'd even be needed..

In that list, henchmen stay in the razorbacks unless it is against something like green tide or similiar list that has no real ranged threat that will be firing at them, its pretty safe to block LOS with the razorbacks, have the guys hop up and fire all their stormbolters, then hop back in next turn, honestly they are really only in there because i was FOC capped and had extra points.

3 servitors with plasma cannon and croteze in a chimera is another super nasty choice, but pricey

Jaon wrote:Incorrect. Psycannons are our answer to AV14. Mathhammer states they are one of the best weapons in the game against AV14.

Psycannon chance to destroy AV 14 if standing still ~9.54%
Psycannon chance to destroy AV 14 if standing moving ~4.83%
MM chance to destroy AV 14 if close ~21.01%
MM chance to destory AV 14 if at max range ~1.88%
TL MM chance to destroy AV 14 if close ~27.91%
LC chance to destroy AV 14 ~3.69%

So if psycannons are standing still, they have about 1/2 the chance of a close up melta to destroy AV 14.
Overall, that's not bad. if your moving, the chance drops by half, putting it about 25% better than a LC.
While I agree that psycannons are one of the best, the drop-off after melta is huge. Does it really work as your 'answer to AV14'?
edit : I mean that as a legitimate question. I can see having 16 psycannons as your answer to AV14. How does it work in your list?

Id rather use a daemon hammer with MoT then hope a psycanon works. From my exp my psycanons shred AV11-12 but not consistantly 14. I know math is on the canons side but in most game cases a las on a sr or a hammer has been more reliable.

Again, even though I commented on it too, psycannons aren't really on topic, since I am wondering about henchmen. In a fire support role.

Article in the signature for more details, but here are some of the fire support units I have been using to good effect. (barring the standards, 3 dudes with meltas)


1) 8 Psykers, 1 Warrior (laspistol) in a Rhino 124 pts.

Cheap, intimidating, CAN be very very deadly, WILL kill itself to perils when you most need them to live. Somehow, I just can't quit S10 AP1 Large blasts at 36" though.



2) 2 Jokaero, 3 Meltaguns, 5 Bolters (usually rides in a ML/HB Chimera with Coteaz) 192 pts.

2 Jokaero gives you the best set of upgrades for the unit, and all the upgrades are useful
Rending- 2x heavy flamers and bolters
Range- Meltas and Multimeltas
Armor or Inv- useful defense.

Coteaz protects this rather expensive unit from assaults (santuary) and Deep strikers/Outflankers (I've been expecting you)



3) 5 Daemonhosts, 3 dudes with Plasma and Carapace armor, Rides in a ML/HF chimera. 169 pts.

The Daemonhosts are T4 with a 5++ INV save. It makes the unit a bit tougher than people expect.

The Daemonhosts shooting abilities pair well with the plasma guns as well.
5 S8 shots + 6 S7 shots are good against tanks and MC's
5 AP3 blasts + 6 AP 2 shots will put the hurt on marines.

Rolling a 1 and getting FNP is not bad as well.

The close combat abilities are not that great to be honest, but I have got lucky with them before.

The carapace armor is there to protect a bit more against get's hot rolls.





All of these units are a bit more expensive than the stock choice of Min/Max/Melta henchmen, but you can get some more utility out of them than just throwing them at a tank.

svendrex wrote:
3) 5 Daemonhosts, 3 dudes with Plasma and Carapace armor, Rides in a ML/HF chimera. 169 pts.

Couple of notes on further advantages of this unit--but just from theory since I've never actually played the unit, but only thought about it.

Daemonhosts are among the cheapest henchmen, but have the huge advantage of being the only ones that are T4. So if you throw some into a unit of regular henchmen--at least half--the unit becomes majority T4, and you can keep it that way by carefully allocating wounds and having a bit of luck.

That, it seems to me, would help a lot against one of the major threats to henchmen in a transport, which is that when the vehicle gets blown up, the passengers all take a Str4 hit. If henchmen anything like guardsmen or guardians, that means you're often losing about half the unit. Having majority T4 means many fewer casualties, and if you got lucky and rolled FNP for that turn, you might take no casualties at all.

Similarly, when hiding in the woods, anything str5 or less has a harder time wounding a unit that is at least half daemonhosts.

And don't forget henchman units can also take dirt-cheap rhinos. For the ones that shoot out the hatches, or if you want something that can turn sideways to provide mobile cover for a psyfleman dread (chimeras don't want to turn sideways), then rhinos are the cheapest choice.

2 Jokaero, 8 pistol+CCW in rhino 142 pts.

just stay in rhino and shoot the monkeys' weapon :|

labmouse42 wrote:

Jaon wrote:Incorrect. Psycannons are our answer to AV14. Mathhammer states they are one of the best weapons in the game against AV14.

Psycannon chance to destroy AV 14 if standing still ~9.54%
Psycannon chance to destroy AV 14 if standing moving ~4.83%
MM chance to destroy AV 14 if close ~21.01%
MM chance to destory AV 14 if at max range ~1.88%
TL MM chance to destroy AV 14 if close ~27.91%
LC chance to destroy AV 14 ~3.69%

So if psycannons are standing still, they have about 1/2 the chance of a close up melta to destroy AV 14.
Overall, that's not bad. if your moving, the chance drops by half, putting it about 25% better than a LC.
While I agree that psycannons are one of the best, the drop-off after melta is huge. Does it really work as your 'answer to AV14'?
edit : I mean that as a legitimate question. I can see having 16 psycannons as your answer to AV14. How does it work in your list?

So it takes about 6 psycannons in heavy 4 mode to do the job of 3 melta henchmen.

Best off with suicide melta dealing with the av14 target and finding a better target for all those psycannon shots.

schadenfreude wrote:So it takes about 6 psycannons in heavy 4 mode to do the job of 3 melta henchmen.

Best off with suicide melta dealing with the av14 target and finding a better target for all those psycannon shots.

The reason I asked it as a legitimate question is because if your fielding enough psycannons they can fill the role.
Lets say at 1750, your running with Crowe, 3 psyDreads, and 5 purifier squads in a psyBack with 4 psycannons each. I can see that being enough psycannons to handle AV 14 as your bringing 20 to the party.

If your running only 4-6 psycannons, then I don't think its enough.

svendrex wrote:Article in the signature for more details, but here are some of the fire support units I have been using to good effect. (barring the standards, 3 dudes with meltas)\

another, hilarious wargear choice is the much-passed over psioccolum
paired with daemonhost+plasma cannon servitors, a psycannon squad, pretty much anything shooty, they become an absolute terror against many armies for the points. Most deathstars include a psyker of some sort, or some entire armies (gk, eldar) really get worried when you have a BS10 squad with reasonable firepower just hosing down units with wounds.

svendrex wrote:1) 8 Psykers, 1 Warrior (laspistol) in a Rhino 124 pts.

Cheap, intimidating, CAN be very very deadly, WILL kill itself to perils when you most need them to live. Somehow, I just can't quit S10 AP1 Large blasts at 36" though.

I was really gung-ho about these guys a while back, but their low leadership scares me from taking them. Failing their psychic test often would be annoying, getting hooded would be more more annoying. So I am not sure. Crazy high strength Ap1-2 blasts are hard to pass up though....

Joe Mama wrote:

svendrex wrote:1) 8 Psykers, 1 Warrior (laspistol) in a Rhino 124 pts.

Cheap, intimidating, CAN be very very deadly, WILL kill itself to perils when you most need them to live. Somehow, I just can't quit S10 AP1 Large blasts at 36" though.

I was really gung-ho about these guys a while back, but their low leadership scares me from taking them. Failing their psychic test often would be annoying, getting hooded would be more more annoying. So I am not sure. Crazy high strength Ap1-2 blasts are hard to pass up though....

To make the most out of a unit like this you need to do a couple of things.


1) Don't rely on them to deal damage. REDUNDANCY

I will often fire the psykers first at whatever targets I have. That can be anything from AV14 to heavy infantry to a horde unit.
I make sure as much as possible that the game does not rely on them performing. They are cheap enough that you really only need 1 good shot a game for them to "make back their points"

Basically, they are unreliable so use them as extra damage on top of what you have already done.



2) Use their Psychological impact.

S10 AP1 large blast is a weapon profile not really seen outside of Apocalypse games. Even though they are LD8 (about a 3/4 cast rate), you have the "potential" to deal a ton of damage.

Make sure your opponent knows that.
For Example:
You are playing against Space Wolves, you target a unit Thunderwolf Cavalry with the Psykers. Play up the fact that WHEN the blast goes off, those Thunderwolves are going to eat a huge pile of instant death. Force him to overreact to your 124 pt unit so the other threats in your list can go to work.

this works especially well in a "threat overload" style of list, as the psykers are a CHEAP way to add an additional [perceived] threat to the list.



3) That last warrior will win you many games.

The psykers in the unit will die to perils of the warp eventually. Maybe not every game, but it will happen.

thankfully, the lone warrior in a Rhino is a HERO!
You are STILL an AV11 box that can Score! take out any nearby anti-tank weapons and take an objective. You can even tank shock the enemy off of it and take it yourself.

Single infantry models are easy to hide. If there are any objectives that are hidden (such as the bottom floor of a ruin) you can run and hide there as long as you need to.

Lastly, your opponent will have to dedicate some amount of force to take out a 4 pt model. Especially against a "kp denial" list (example: Draigo-star) he will be loath to wast a turn of shooting or assault on a single low point model, and if he does, he just wasted a lot of firepower that would have been going into other units.



4) Objective Placement and Servo Skulls

Objectives: Place some of the objectives on the enemy side of the table out in the open.
If the enemy wants to take that objective they will not be getting a cover save from the psykers. Combined with a nearby nearby servo skull, this can be very deadly.
If you want to take that objective, cover is not an issue. You probably have a unit with Crusaders right? 3++ Inv is better than cover anyways.

The other option is to place an objective on your side of the table where a long warrior acolyte can hide


Servo Skulls: Their ability to reduce scatter makes the Psykers a LOT less unreliable. (your "on target" increases from about 39% to 66%. Max scatter reduced to 3")

Place a servo skull about 9" away from an objective. If the enemy wants to take that objective he will be in range of the servo skull, but if he wants to move to take out the skull he will be away from the objective.

If you are going first, you can use the Skulls as part of an alpha Strike, Going Second, you will probably want them midfield or even close to your lines. 3" max scatter means you can fire on targets near your own troops without fear.


5) Dealing with anti-psyker abilities.

Most anti-psykers things are psykers as well. Mind Strike missiles are one way to deal with that. A Vindicare assassin would be another.

Range is another thing to remember. Shadows is only 18", Hoods are 24", You have a 36" range, an assault weapon, and a transport.
Move 12", have the unit hop out of the back of the rhino, have one psyker poke is head around the corner to shoot. Out range that hood.


Aegies and especially Reinforced aegis is annoying, but if you have redundancy in your list you can take these out with those weapons.
Runes of Warding are very nasty as well, but against Eldar the farseer is already a huge target.

you can even go into reserves to protect them for a few turns until the rest of your force has killed off the Psy-Defense






Overall:
If you are taking them simply to deal damage you will be disappointed
BUT
they have a good psychological effect, can be a useful scoring unit for you, and can make it more dangerous for the enemy to take can objective.

Wow that was very informative, thank you

one other way to mess with your opponent in a henchmen list is to have a psyker (single 1 man unit) in different places.

As you just need one guy to shoot off large blast templates. Even with just 1 guy, it's still a str 3, ap6 weapon. Thorwing down pie plates always seems to unnerve some people. It's a decent anti-horde weapon as well since it's bascially a 10 point large lasgun.

sudojoe wrote:one other way to mess with your opponent in a henchmen list is to have a psyker (single 1 man unit) in different places.

Size 3-12. :(

pretre wrote:

sudojoe wrote:one other way to mess with your opponent in a henchmen list is to have a psyker (single 1 man unit) in different places.

Size 3-12. :(

"Chosen in any combination"

toss an extra 10 point psyker into a normal shooty squad in a chimera. Or your melta squad in a rhino who might be out of range with their meltas but still can reach someone with the psyker's 36'.

sudojoe wrote:

pretre wrote:

sudojoe wrote:one other way to mess with your opponent in a henchmen list is to have a psyker (single 1 man unit) in different places.

Size 3-12. :(

"Chosen in any combination"

toss an extra 10 point psyker into a normal shooty squad in a chimera. Or your melta squad in a rhino who might be out of range with their meltas but still can reach someone with the psyker's 36'.

Yeah, but you said 'single 1 man unit'. Just correcting that.

OMG, that's genius. You just throw a 10-point psyker into any regular unit of henchmen, and it's like having a long-range large blast assault weapon that they can fire off any turn that they're not doing something else.

I'm writing all this down...

labmouse42 wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:So it takes about 6 psycannons in heavy 4 mode to do the job of 3 melta henchmen.

Best off with suicide melta dealing with the av14 target and finding a better target for all those psycannon shots.

The reason I asked it as a legitimate question is because if your fielding enough psycannons they can fill the role.
Lets say at 1750, your running with Crowe, 3 psyDreads, and 5 purifier squads in a psyBack with 4 psycannons each. I can see that being enough psycannons to handle AV 14 as your bringing 20 to the party.

If your running only 4-6 psycannons, then I don't think its enough.

Even with 24 psycannons the shots are better off going into meq or av11 targets than av14 land raider. The rest of the army will have more firepower and less protection than the land raider.

Crowe lists can make good use of a single inquisitor for cheap rad grenades or another psycannon, and with that they can make good use of a no force org suicide melta squad in a hb razorback. Move 12" towards the land raider and pop smoke. Next turn melta the land raider. If it splodes the deathstar inside will curbstomp the henchmen, then eat buckets of psycannons in the next gk shooting phase. If the land raider can still move it has to go around or tank shock the melta guns, neither are a good option.

The other option is a vindicare. Its not that psycannons can't kill land raiders, it's that they are so amazingly good at killing everything else that it is a real waste of killing firepower to shoot them at a land raider.

pretre wrote:

sudojoe wrote:

pretre wrote:

sudojoe wrote:one other way to mess with your opponent in a henchmen list is to have a psyker (single 1 man unit) in different places.

Size 3-12. :(

"Chosen in any combination"

toss an extra 10 point psyker into a normal shooty squad in a chimera. Or your melta squad in a rhino who might be out of range with their meltas but still can reach someone with the psyker's 36'.

Yeah, but you said 'single 1 man unit'. Just correcting that.

sorry, wasn't too clear I suppose. Origional thought is still sound I think. It's essentially throwing large lasgun pie plates around but really messes with people as well as not really losing anything even if you peril or fail, plus you can get like 5-6 pie plates a turn! very intimidating. Great to deal with swarms of things which I typically find heavy melta builts of henchmen to lack also.