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Does the imperium of Man have to much?

Now that all the armies of the Imperium are battle brothers and the assassins are a dataslate. Plus you can take an imperial knight as a LOW, do the good guys have too many options leaving other armies high and dry?

I play chaos and I can't even join daemons in with marines or cultists because of daemonic instability.
Poor nids don't have any friends. Neither do orks.

I enjoy seeing the the differnt models on the table. I just want to have some new toys to put down. I know you can always go unbound but I don't want to take imperial assassins I would like to see Alpha Legion covert teams or something. Mix it up a bit GW
Rant done.

What does Dakka think? Are you all imperialist? Or do you want to see some love else where?

Matt

Not sure whether this helps prove your point or not, but Imperial Knights are an Allied Choice or an army unto their own right... They do not take up a LOW spot. So technically you could have a battle forged AM list with an allied detachment of 3 Knights and a Baneblade in the LOW slot.

But back on the topic, I don't think they have too much. The imperium is finally working how it's supposed to.

gonna agree with Jose that this is really a case of the Imperium finally being shown on table top like it should be. a wide mix of units and armies sometimes working independantly or even against each other but as often as not working together. there is a REASON the IoM is the dominant force in the galaxy and 7th edition really shows it.

that said the IoM is sitting pretty awesome right now and I agree it'd be nice to see GW give some other factions some fun stuff. maybe go back and give a IG supplement for the lost and the damned

that said the IoM are essentially the "protagionists" for 40k. the action revolves around them. I think thats something everyone to one degree or another in this hobby realizes

I'd say it's not that they have too much but that some of the Xeno factions just don't have enough.

that said the IoM are essentially the "protagionists" for 40k. the action revolves around them. I think thats something everyone to one degree or another in this hobby realizes

Considering that lately CSM have been treated as team canonfodder, I am inclined to agree with this statement.

Course they can't even do battle brother tactics with Daemons because of all the innate rules now, so it's not like much is going to change, they aren't going to do lost and the damned.

I agree that we need more Xenos factions or even cut down on the number of Imperial forces and factions, in particular the Marine Chapters. Biggest reason I am getting a Tau army is because there is so much Imperial out there already.

Yeah its not too much. Just not enough else where. I think GW may have backed themselves in a corner with having so many options for IOM and very few for everyone else.

I don't know how they could expand chaos without making it seem as though chaos is getting a corrupted version of everything IOM get.

For some of the other races it gets harder. How do you expand on orks or nids while keeping flavour?

Tau they could expand on their auxiliary forces

GW just does what it does half way, and needs to put more effort into its factions so they can do far more with what they have in interesting ways.

If they want one big faction, they need to balance that out some way with the others.
Chaos should be easy to come up with all kinda interesting things, and both there codexes read like they had 10 lines each for ideas and they rolled with that :0

Impirium is a giant monolith of a powerful empire.
Many elements of a giant power combined into a force that can overwhelm almost anyone.

Sounds abpput right

Hopefully with the new codex layout we'll see more chaos and xeno units added too.

Then again, I personally don't mind the IoM having a lot of sub-factions and units. I'm an ork player, I can loot whatever I want: this is why I'm working on an imperial knights army made up of looted knight equivalent models from every race, and also why I'm planning on doing orkperatives as imperial assassins. Sure, they are Come the Apocalypse with my main horde, but that can easily explained as some tribe-feud!

MSRC27 wrote:
Yeah its not too much. Just not enough else where. I think GW may have backed themselves in a corner with having so many options for IOM and very few for everyone else.

I don't know how they could expand chaos without making it seem as though chaos is getting a corrupted version of everything IOM get.

For some of the other races it gets harder. How do you expand on orks or nids while keeping flavour?

Tau they could expand on their auxiliary forces

I don't know if Orks could be 'expanded' so to speak, but there are a BOATLOAD of missed opportunities for them so far. The fact that Grots have virtually no uses is kind of depressing. They could do something MORE with them. Squigs, despite being an intricate part of Ork kulture are no where to be seen within the Codex outside of Bomb Squigs.

Some could argue that it would make 40k Orks TOO MUCH like Fantasy Orcs, but, I don't really CARE. I want some fun Gretchen units! I want SQUIGS! I want BIIIIG Squigs that I don't need Forgeworld books and models to use (As those are all too DAMN expensive). I don't feel Orks really NEED to ally with anyone in this aspect, and I don't think they need to make more 'Ork subspecies'. If they would dive harder into the lore, they could give Orks a lot of cool stuff. I want some MC dammit! :p

As for the Nids, I don't think they really, according to fluff, get allies. They just sort of kill everything and everyone. Again, a faction that needs perhaps MORE. I feel out of all the factions, the Xenos should get more units in their books, as they have fewer outside assistance options. I feel GW gets too scared to really pull more from the lore, or make new lore. Really show us what these alleged terrifying xeno races can do!

Even with all those allies, the Imperium functions best when run mono in a competitive sense.

It adds flavor, though I get the jealousy.

Chaos and xenos exist only to provide the Imperium something to kill. You don't need variety to do that. If you don't like it then maybe you shouldn't have chosen to play an NPC faction.

I do think they have too much. This is both from a gameplay an from a fluff perspective.

If we begin with gameplay reasons, the ability to bring tons of allies as battle brothers is an incredible boon for imperial armies and will likely need to be limited in competitive settings with caps on numbers of allies and whatnot.

From a fluff perspective they still have too much. Yes, the Imperium is the biggest faction and some combinations should be seen. Though the size of the Imperium is also the reason to why battle brothers across the board does not make sense. The Imperium is big enough that some factions simply do not get the opportunity to work closely together while other actively hate eachother. The current matrix does make a poor job of reflecting this. I would prefer a setup with more allies of convenience and less battle brothers in the IoM. It feels like how it is now is in order to make it simple rather than for it to make sense.

think of the IoM as a square and the Xenos are attacking on all sides they do not ally against because they are not together they are separate. but i do think chaos and the demons should be allies.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Chaos and xenos exist only to provide the Imperium something to kill. You don't need variety to do that. If you don't like it then maybe you shouldn't have chosen to play an NPC faction.

I have to agree with this statement. Unfortunately.

The main problem with 40k imo, atm is that they are still trying to cram in all aspects of types of games in one game such as they try to make it a tactical wargame with two or more armies whilst trying to make it Epic 28mill with the use of super heavies all the while trying to play upon the RPG aspect as well in terms of character creation..

Then they also try to add in other aspects from other games into their own such as The new LOW slot is basically trying to do what WM/H Colossal and Gargantuan's are trying to do, and the new "detachment" CAD's are basically the platoon idea stolen from FoW and DZC and the obvious Psychic phase is the Magic phase from fantasy as a few examples..

And then there is the obvious "it has to fit the game dev's point of view of the fluff"..

The result? The Imperium get a lot of good things due to the fact that A) IoM stuff sells and B ) Its easier to make a bunch of IoM stuff as its more relateable and therefore easier to produce than your average CSM and Daemons in question..

The truth sucks, I know it but hopefully we will get more pretty dinobots in the next edition, eh?

Tend to agree

Technically Chaos Should be:

Battle Brothers: All Chaos forces:
AOC? Guard and Astartes (to represent recently renegade Chapters including SW as they have turned in company size in the past), Knights as well.
AOC or DA: Dark Eldar, Orks

Just not Grey Knights, Tau and Sisters really.............

MSRC27 wrote:
Yeah its not too much. Just not enough else where. I think GW may have backed themselves in a corner with having so many options for IOM and very few for everyone else.

I don't know how they could expand chaos without making it seem as though chaos is getting a corrupted version of everything IOM get.

For some of the other races it gets harder. How do you expand on orks or nids while keeping flavour?

Tau they could expand on their auxiliary forces

They should do what they did with FW, and say that any IOM unit that's been covered in spikes, sigils and mutations can be allied to Chaos. Instant buyerbase increase, and they wouldn't have to do anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MSRC27 wrote:

For some of the other races it gets harder. How do you expand on orks or nids while keeping flavour?

Give them a unit construction section.

Av 10 F,S,R hull for 30 pts, add twin-linked shoota for +5 pts, add boomgun anywhere for X pts...

Ratflinger wrote:
From a fluff perspective they still have too much. Yes, the Imperium is the biggest faction and some combinations should be seen. Though the size of the Imperium is also the reason to why battle brothers across the board does not make sense. The Imperium is big enough that some factions simply do not get the opportunity to work closely together while other actively hate eachother. The current matrix does make a poor job of reflecting this. I would prefer a setup with more allies of convenience and less battle brothers in the IoM. It feels like how it is now is in order to make it simple rather than for it to make sense.

It's less a matter of simplicity and more a matter of selling as many space marines to as many players as possible by letting almost everyone take space marines of whatever flavor with no restrictions.

What it all really comes down to is that GW's whole business strategy is to sell as many plastic space marines as possible. Period. Everything else is secondary. This is what the game and the rules and everything else is designed to do. If they could get away with only producing plastic space marines they would. Everybody would play space marines and therefore every space marine release would be usable by (read: sellable to) everyone. Unfortunately space marine players demand a variety of opponents so they have to produce a few NPC armies for the space marines to fight. But make no mistake, those armies only exist to help sell space marines.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Chaos and xenos exist only to provide the Imperium something to kill. You don't need variety to do that. If you don't like it then maybe you shouldn't have chosen to play an NPC faction.

That's cute trollbait. But in all honesty, is one of the dumbest statements I've read. Because we all know the game would be so much better/cooler as Warhammer: Sperce Merheans. No diversity = best game, 10/10, game of the year edition.

Melevolence wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Chaos and xenos exist only to provide the Imperium something to kill. You don't need variety to do that. If you don't like it then maybe you shouldn't have chosen to play an NPC faction.

That's cute trollbait. But in all honesty, is one of the dumbest statements I've read. Because we all know the game would be so much better/cooler as Warhammer: Sperce Merheans.

That exists already:

Yes the IoM has too much. They now free fleet. They now have free choices, they don't have to choose now when picking grenades or missiles, they can have both.

They all have become faster for free as well. Yes the IoM has too much and what weaknesses they had are slowly being taken away to make them stronger for more sales.

I think a traitor guard supplement would be a nice addition to the game, basically making the IG.book BB with CSM/CD with a few relics, characters and the ability to take marks of chaos.

May have to tweak a few rules/units but should be fairly easy.

F

 evildrcheese wrote:
I think a traitor guard supplement would be a nice addition to the game, basically making the IG.book BB with CSM/CD with a few relics, characters and the ability to take marks of chaos.

May have to tweak a few rules/units but should be fairly easy.

F

CSM assault boats!

"Bring me my CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT!" - An overly excited Chaos Lord.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:What it all really comes down to is that GW's whole business strategy is to sell as many plastic space marines as possible. Period. Everything else is secondary. This is what the game and the rules and everything else is designed to do. If they could get away with only producing plastic space marines they would. Everybody would play space marines and therefore every space marine release would be usable by (read: sellable to) everyone. Unfortunately space marine players demand a variety of opponents so they have to produce a few NPC armies for the space marines to fight. But make no mistake, those armies only exist to help sell space marines.

This is the Angry Kid explanation of it.

The reality is "Space Marines sell far more models than any other faction. We should find ways to tap into that market."

GW is a business. They sell what is profitable. They don't sell Space Marines because they want to sell Space Marines. They sell Space Marines because people want to buy Space Marines and thus GW gives them more Space Marines to buy.

I'd imagine that GW would be far more happy it if people loved Orks, or Imperial Guardsmen or Tyranids, lol. You need twice as many of them to play. If they could have one Space Marine codex and five Imperial Guard codexes, their annual revenues would be significantly higher. But nope. People love Space Marines.

It's just the way it is. Getting angry and ranting about Games Workshop won't change that.

Yeah we know this. But... Who cares that they have a sales strategy to just sell Mahreens. The 40k game is what is debated here, not just model sales. They're only shooting themselves in the foot from stopping us from buying more models!

IoM definitely has way, way, way more ability and variance than any other faction. I think personally that it is just about right for the size of their fluff. However some restrictions should be put in place. Not every marine chapter is as friendly as the Smurfs. After all, most Guard never even see a Marine in their entire lifetime. And they don't always play according to the missions specified. I don't think its that big a deal though as they are all IoM and should allow you to build your army as fluffy as you like. It is however, OP to have that much flavour and not have something similar at the other side of the table.

I'm a chaos player and feel pretty let down that I'm no longer allowed to ally with my mate's Guard, especially for the battle brothers event.

I was even thinking of expanding my model collection into traitor AM ally detachments. No point now, so there's some sales lost already. Would have loved to pick up one of the Knight models, since fluffwise they have at least a Slaanesh house.... Sorry, no dice. Drop pods/Dreadclaws? Sorry, the rules are so stupid there's no point forking out the money on 4 x £22.50 models for my army now. Even the idea of a traitor Inquisitor which is in the fluff, can't be represented on the field (I know, bit of a stretch there game-wise. but they're in the novels).

A lot of the other armys are in even worse situations when it comes to variety.

If it comes down to IoM lists being the auto-win, the game will eventually just become marine on marine action.

Be as well playing a video game.

I think it's about time that GW started sharing the efforts when it comes to the bad guys. Otherwise those of us who didn't get into Marines when we started, will be buying maybe 1 or two models (Plus a codex/dataslate) every couple of years, instead of drawing us into the allied armies.

What's the alternative? eBay your painted army and invest in some Puppies (The real Khorne codex )?

Come on GW share the fluff love.

GW is a business. They sell what is profitable. They don't sell Space Marines because they want to sell Space Marines. They sell Space Marines because people want to buy Space Marines and thus GW gives them more Space Marines to buy.

How much of this is a self fulffilling propercy do we think?

 Grumzimus wrote:
Yeah we know this. But... Who cares that they have a sales strategy to just sell Mahreens. The 40k game is what is debated here, not just model sales. They're only shooting themselves in the foot from stopping us from buying more models!

IoM definitely has way, way, way more ability and variance than any other faction. I think personally that it is just about right for the size of their fluff. However some restrictions should be put in place. Not every marine chapter is as friendly as the Smurfs. After all, most Guard never even see a Marine in their entire lifetime. And they don't always play according to the missions specified. I don't think its that big a deal though as they are all IoM and should allow you to build your army as fluffy as you like. It is however, OP to have that much flavour and not have something similar at the other side of the table.

I'm a chaos player and feel pretty let down that I'm no longer allowed to ally with my mate's Guard, especially for the battle brothers event.

I was even thinking of expanding my model collection into traitor AM ally detachments. No point now, so there's some sales lost already. Would have loved to pick up one of the Knight models, since fluffwise they have at least a Slaanesh house.... Sorry, no dice. Drop pods/Dreadclaws? Sorry, the rules are so stupid there's no point forking out the money on 4 x £22.50 models for my army now. Even the idea of a traitor Inquisitor which is in the fluff, can't be represented on the field (I know, bit of a stretch there game-wise. but they're in the novels).

A lot of the other armys are in even worse situations when it comes to variety.

If it comes down to IoM lists being the auto-win, the game will eventually just become marine on marine action.

Be as well playing a video game.

I think it's about time that GW started sharing the efforts when it comes to the bad guys. Otherwise those of us who didn't get into Marines when we started, will be buying maybe 1 or two models (Plus a codex/dataslate) every couple of years, instead of drawing us into the allied armies.

What's the alternative? eBay your painted army and invest in some Puppies (The real Khorne codex )?

Come on GW share the fluff love.

Well said

I think Eldar and Tau need a huge boost. They're definitely bottom tier, along with Daemon Summoning madness...

Such cries the Xenos players, never happy as ALL IOM armies are mid tier or lower...

 Grumzimus wrote:
Yeah we know this. But... Who cares that they have a sales strategy to just sell Mahreens. The 40k game is what is debated here, not just model sales. They're only shooting themselves in the foot from stopping us from buying more models!

IoM definitely has way, way, way more ability and variance than any other faction. I think personally that it is just about right for the size of their fluff. However some restrictions should be put in place. Not every marine chapter is as friendly as the Smurfs. After all, most Guard never even see a Marine in their entire lifetime. And they don't always play according to the missions specified. I don't think its that big a deal though as they are all IoM and should allow you to build your army as fluffy as you like. It is however, OP to have that much flavour and not have something similar at the other side of the table.

I'm a chaos player and feel pretty let down that I'm no longer allowed to ally with my mate's Guard, especially for the battle brothers event.

I was even thinking of expanding my model collection into traitor AM ally detachments. No point now, so there's some sales lost already. Would have loved to pick up one of the Knight models, since fluffwise they have at least a Slaanesh house.... Sorry, no dice. Drop pods/Dreadclaws? Sorry, the rules are so stupid there's no point forking out the money on 4 x £22.50 models for my army now. Even the idea of a traitor Inquisitor which is in the fluff, can't be represented on the field (I know, bit of a stretch there game-wise. but they're in the novels).

A lot of the other armys are in even worse situations when it comes to variety.

If it comes down to IoM lists being the auto-win, the game will eventually just become marine on marine action.

Be as well playing a video game.

I think it's about time that GW started sharing the efforts when it comes to the bad guys. Otherwise those of us who didn't get into Marines when we started, will be buying maybe 1 or two models (Plus a codex/dataslate) every couple of years, instead of drawing us into the allied armies.

What's the alternative? eBay your painted army and invest in some Puppies (The real Khorne codex )?

Come on GW share the fluff love.

How receptive are your gaming group to playing outside the rules, if someone said to me 'I've modelled this corrupted Inquisitor, mind if I run him as BB with my CSM?' I'd be like 'Awesome, let me purge the foul traitor'.

Same story with traitor guard, Renegade Marines using a mix of CSM and C:SM, SW as Khorne marines using juggernauts as TWC. Sure we might have to have a conversation about altering some rules or allowing codexes to mix wargear/items (marks of chaos for IG) for instance if we really wanted to personalise it but I'd be open to the suggestions.

There's plenty of scope to play this game if you're willing to be flexible with the rulebook.

D