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Hi all!

This is my first attempt at fantasy ever, so I no doubt have a long way to go with this.
I wanted to write a vampire counts list that doesn't involve spending lots of time and money making and painting hordes of zombies to summon, and I love the von carnsteins and their models so this list is currently built on the old rule of cool for me! So I could do with a helping hand in making it semi-competitive (not tournament level, but so I win at least the odd game!).

First question... Is making a Vampire Counts list that isn't all about summoning stupid amounts of models remotely possible? (Serious question!)

Thanks for your time, my initial list is as follows...

+++ Vampires (1931pts) +++

+ Lords (554 pts) +

Count Mannfred (554 pts)
····barded nightmare

+ Heroes (322pts) +

Konrad von Carstein (160pts

Vampire (162pts) [Dread Knight, Fear Incarnate, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Lore of Death, Magic Items, Master Strike, Wizard Level 1

+ Core (510pts) +

Crypt Ghouls (240pts) [Champion, 23x Crypt Ghoul (with Vampire)

Dire Wolves (90pts) [Champion, 10x Dire Wolf

Dire Wolves (90pts) Champion, 10x Dire Wolf

Dire Wolves (90pts) Champion, 10x Dire Wolf

+ Special (339pts) +

Black Knights (177pts) (with Manfred)
7x Black Knight + Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer

Grave Guard (162) (with Konrad)
12 + Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer

+ Rare (200pts) +

Blood Knights (200pts) [4x Blood Knight (200pts)

I'd run a lot more GG personally as a group of 12 will get wiped fast.

How much more? Push them up to twenty? Or further...?

Is the lack of skeletons/zombies an issue?

Cheers,
Jabbadewonga

Even twenty is a bit sketchy, GG are decent but still can take a few losses. Add in combat res and you could loose 12 in a phase. One of their great benefits is that they raise up again so easily, as easy as standard skeletons and that's where their durability comes from. But then for that you need an Inv of Nehek nearby. I'd look to take it to 25, if you want them to dish some damage, great weapons + Banner if the Barrows, or durability shields. Considering your core choices I'd say shields as you haven't got many durable units. Ghouls can put out some hits but fall to them in turn fast. To be honest though I don't think you can fit an effective unit of both grave guard and black knights if you want the blood knights as well.

Your vampire build is different, I'll give it that. Keep him on Lore of Vampires, his Ld is low so Lore if Death can be quite unreliable. Also gives a second General if Mannfred dies, which is very possible. Mannfreds not a CC demon by a long shot, he's a caster who just gets extra dice from CC. So you want to pick your fights carefully and stay out of challenges with him. Back to the Vampire fear incarnate is good, but not so much the other two. Quick blood is a nice go to with ASF, or if you want to try fear bomb add Aura of Dark Majesty and Screaming banner. (I prefer not to max out on fear too much as you run into something fearless or psychology immune and it means nought). Magic weapons wise a sword of might is nice. Ward saves are cool so on a General backup talisman of endurance, Book of Arkhan is also good but with a Loremaster (Manfred) not so necessary.

Overall though, yes you could work out something without the hordes of zombies and skeletons. But then as you can't fight a war of attrition you need hard hitting fast units. So combat oriented lord, big black knight unit and vargheists can work with some dire wolves and a necromancer hanging with some ghouls. With Manfred you have a very magic oriented lord which is more suitable to the attrition game. He's very competent magically but very vulnerable with no ward save and an average armour. Even some combat oriented hereo could smack him in a challenge. You can chuck 3 levels on a Vampire lord and 200pts of items on him and come up 5 points less than Mannfred. You loose the spell selection but gain elsewhere. If you really want to run Manfred then do, but you can get a similar result with a Vampire lord with some actual combat potential and durability.

Hi mate,
I had another topic open in the tactics section as I've never played fantasy before.
What I have since decided to do is as follows (but please do still make pointers!

Mannfred out for a mounted vampire Lord (level 4, talisman ward save, red fury and quick strike)
He's in with 10 black Knights.

In place of Konrad I've put in a fighty vampire and a necromancer. And they will each go in a unit of 25 skeletons.

So now the list looks like:

Lords:
Vampire Lord (mounted)
Ogre blade, heavy armour, tricksters shard, talisman of preservation, shield, wizard level 4
Quick Blood, Red Fury

Heroes:
Vampire
Great weapon, lore of vampires, glittering scales
Red Fury

Necromancer
Dispel scroll, master of the dead, level 2

Core:
10 ghouls
2x 25 Skeletons (full command)
2x 5 dire wolves

Elites:
10x black Knights
2x spirit host

Rare:
5x blood Knights with champion

1000 dead on.

I would ideally have fielded more ghouls and less skeletons but the general consensus is that isn't really viable?

Anyway, thanks for your response and pointers.
I've gone for the Knights instead of the graveguard and threw in some spirit hosts to give the blood Knights a cover save.

Skeletons will stick in the centre with the ghouls just behind and wolves in front of the skeletons with the blood Knights/spirit host and black Knights/Lord running down the flanks.

Again all input would be great as I'm yet to play a single game of fantasy...!

Cheers,
Jabba

My friend, minimum spirit host are 3

And you only need 9 Black Knights to go with the lord

Blood Knights need full command and the Banner I advised you before

I would believe that jabba was intending to have 2 separate units of spirit hosts, 1 base each. They're good as blockers and redirectors and are cheap enough to throwaway. If you actually want them to do some damage you need to take quite a few just to overcome other units static combat resolution with some wounds. And then at that point they're big enough to justify lobbing a magic missile at them.

I'd take Lore of Shadows on the Vampire. You got better guys to be doing ION and the Mystifying Miasma can help bring your guys up to par, or should I say theirs down to yours

Is there anything on the black knights or are they just bare bones? Also is your Lord on a nightmare or hellsteed? Hellsteeds give some funny options breaking away and flying over their front line to brutalise some archers or warmachine as the black knights crash into their supposed guards. Have to be careful though as it is your general after all.

Blood knights with full command and banner of blood keep is expensive. Keep it simple just take a standard bearer and banner of the eternal flame. Gives you something to bully regenerating creeps and at the very least you've got +1 combat res. I find forced challenges more annoying than anything, they don't really benefit you in anyway so I tend to avoid the champion. If you try to hit a lone charater with them, then they just get an easy challenge and dick you around for a turn with the spectating blood knights ultimately keeling over in embarrassment after the Kastellan splatters (see crumble).

The black Knights have lances and the gleaming pennant standard with a champion.
I've adjusted to 9 and added a musician.
The Lord is just on a nightmare atm.

What is ION? Sorry!

I've removed the champion in the blood Knights in favour of the banner of eternal flame... Thanks for the heads up!
I thought taking spirit hosts to give them a cover save would be a more efficient use of points than the banner of blood keep?
Especially as I'm planning on using the bottom of a Mortis engine to make the blood Knights into spirit/ethereal ones... Speaking of which would that be alright? I know they're meant to be vampires but figured it'd be a cool change

And yeah 2 spirit host units for cheap cover saves.

How does the list look then? As long as it's not going to lay down and die (pun intended :p) I don't mind!

Thanks guys

A decent first list, just a few pointers I'd make

- IoN = Invocation of Nehek, the Lore of Vampire's signature spell

- Blood Knights are an interesting choice. They're not the most optimal choice but I've never personally used them and they are a cool unit, so if you're set on using them then go for it. Just make sure you use your chaff units (dire wolves and hosts) to allow them to make the charges they want to make, and to protect them from cannons. And swapping out the champion for the banner of eternal flame is a good call.

- It's important to remember that, in WHFB, generally bigger is better. With this in mind, you should combine your two Skeleton units and drop the ghouls completely. With the ghouls' points you could get two more units of 5 direwolves and the Screaming Banner on the Skeletons. Or a minimum unit of Zombies (if you're not completely opposed to them!) and a unit of wolves. Also, you would be better off finding the points for a few more Black Knights and making sure they've got shields. I'd suggest dropping your Hero Vamp as he doesn't add much to this list as it is, as well as Master of the Dead on the Necro (you'll find it's not as useful as it seems), and then getting another 4 Black Knights. I'm not sure how many points you'll have after this, but it would be good if you could squeeze in a unit of Crypt Horrors (preferably at least 5), even if you have to drop the Necro down a level or drop a spirit host or something. The Crypt Horrors will act as a strong, all-round combat unit as well as an anvil to your cavarly's hammer. Or alternatively a Terrorgheist.

- Finally, if you end up keeping both the hosts, split them up into two separate units.

Hope this helps, any more questions let me know!

JabbaDeWonga wrote:
Hi mate,
I had another topic open in the tactics section as I've never played fantasy before.
What I have since decided to do is as follows (but please do still make pointers!

Mannfred out for a mounted vampire Lord (level 4, talisman ward save, red fury and quick strike)
He's in with 10 black Knights.

In place of Konrad I've put in a fighty vampire and a necromancer. And they will each go in a unit of 25 skeletons.

So now the list looks like:

Lords:
Vampire Lord (mounted)
Ogre blade, heavy armour, tricksters shard, talisman of preservation, shield, wizard level 4
Quick Blood, Red Fury

Heroes:
Vampire
Great weapon, lore of vampires, glittering scales
Red Fury

Necromancer
Dispel scroll, master of the dead, level 2

Core:
10 ghouls
2x 25 Skeletons (full command)
2x 5 dire wolves

Elites:
10x black Knights
2x spirit host

Rare:
5x blood Knights with champion

1000 dead on.

I would ideally have fielded more ghouls and less skeletons but the general consensus is that isn't really viable?

Anyway, thanks for your response and pointers.
I've gone for the Knights instead of the graveguard and threw in some spirit hosts to give the blood Knights a cover save.

Skeletons will stick in the centre with the ghouls just behind and wolves in front of the skeletons with the blood Knights/spirit host and black Knights/Lord running down the flanks.

Again all input would be great as I'm yet to play a single game of fantasy...!

Cheers,
Jabba

Better, but you're still going to have some issues.

1) CORE: you're spreading yourself a bit thin here. 10 ghouls isn't going to do much of anything. 25 skeletons isn't either. The former is meant to be a "hammer unit" that earns you points, but 10 ghouls will die before they even get to strike. That unit needs to be 30-40 to be viable.

The skeletons are a simlar story. These are meant to be "tarpits", as in units that stop up the enemy lines while your fighty vampires pick them apart piecemeal. You're not going to do that with 25, which a lot of nasty combat units will chew through in a single round. 40-50 is the minimum size, so if you're going to run 50 then do a single unit rather than two. Alternatively, run a unit of 40 and a unit of 10 to "bunker" your necromancer and protect him from shooting and magic. If you do this then take a skeleton champion...you'll want him when a solo pegasus character gets into your back lines to tank him with challenges.

2) BLACK KNIGHTS: get over any misconceptions you may have about this unit doing damage. Black Knights are a vampire delivery system, plain and simple. Their one and only goal is to ensure that your fighty lords get into combat, and that they don't die to static combat res or shooting on the way in.

3) BLOOD KNIGHTS: they're a very problematic unit, but power to you if you want to paint them. They're super fragile and super expensive, and frenzy is a big pain. However as a flanking unit they're not the worst choice out there. Flaming standard or gleaming pennant is the way to go with these guys. Flag of the Blood Keep is super, super expensive for what you're getting.

4) HERO VAMPIRE: If you're going to run one then stick him in with the vampire lord. Honestly though, these guys are pretty gak. They're a budget vampire lord that costs way too many points and is fragile as all get out. You're better off splitting him up into a Wight King and a Necromancer.

If you really want to run the hero vampire, then stick him on a barded steed in with the blender vampire. Lance, potion of strength, dawnstone, enchanted shield, red fury, barded nightmare. Give him two levels on Vampires just to give you an other IoN (which will get 3 BK back), and roll his dice first to get some assurance you'll have the spells you want on your level 4. For this build, notably Vanhels to turn your hero vampire into a budget vampire lord.

The thinking here is simple: one hero vamp won't do enough damage to justify his points before he's ground out...but a couple will cripple a unit and limit their ability to hit him back. You build a deathstar too mean for anybody to deal with, and protect his points that way instead.

On his own, though, the hero vampire is just easy points for your opponent. Especially on foot.

Hey guys thanks for the comments!

I've dropped the hero vampire in favour of a mounted white king with nightshroud and biting blade.

I've dropped the ghouls in favour of 10 more skellies for the necromancer to hide in behind the now combined unit of 40.

I've added two extra units of 5 wolves (so 4x units of 5)

I may drop the blood Knights in favour of 5 crypt horrors?

That gives me 13 black Knights (riding with the Lord and white king) and 12 points to play with.

Alternatively I could get rid of the wolves and the 10 skellies in favour of 25 crypt ghouls to "hide" the necromancer in? would a unit of zombies/ghouls hide him better than the skeletons?

Cheers again,
Jabba

Another thing - what are hex wraiths like? Are they viable with the black Knights in this list...?

For anyone reading, I'd like a fast and hard hitting VC army with very little summoning compared to the average undead player while still being semi-competitive.

Thanks all

From an opponent's perspective, hex wraiths are a nightmare if you don't have the tools to deal with them, and trivially easy to deal with if you do. Because of all the elves and fast cav on the field these days people are running lots of magic missiles anyways (not to mention that Lizzies, HE, DE, and WE all have access to Dark and High magic, with their awesome magic missile signature spells). That makes hex wraiths free points for your opponents.

If you're just doing casual games with your buddies though they might have a tough time dealing with them. They're also great for raising with Lore of Undeath.

I wouldn't prioritize them, though. Much bigger fan of vargheists if you're looking for a fast harassment unit. Just keep in mind that they're frenzied, so to turn them around when you're not needing them to charge right at that moment.



As for the new list:

1) I'd rather just give the wight king a great weapon and the luckstone/dragonbane gem. Mundane S6 every round is always a good option, especially with Banner of the World Dragon out there.

2) I'd almost suggest putting the necro on a horse, and having him in the back rank of your black knights. You'll have to fiddle around with that.

3) That's the spirit! Just make sure you don't throw them away TOO soon. You want to use these bad boys to gain an advantange, not just feed your opponent 200 free points.

4) 5 crypt horrors isn't enough. I ran 6 and it's anemic. 8 is a solid unit. 12 is a nasty denial brick, but super unwieldy.

As I mentioned above, units of 4 vargheists are really solid as a harassment unit. Good at shredding warmachines if you know how to use them (i.e. read the charge rules carefully...you don't have to charge straight at warmachines, since yo udon't close the door to them. Control your angle of overrun so that you hit another one and fight that the next turn).


13 black knights is a good size.

Don't get rid of the dogs for ghouls. Dogs are amazing. Ghouls are mediocre.

So reduce the black Knights to 12 and fit in the necromancer as well...?

Would 2 groups of 40 skellies with 3 units of wolves be better? With the 4 vargheists with lances and barding on the black knight and the two spirit hosts hitting 2000 dead on.

Yeah that could work. You'll have to play around with things and get a feel for it, but I think you're on the right track now.

One thing I will say is to not get overly concerned about nice, neat unit sizes. Having an extra BK hanging off the back of the unit is one more ablative wound. Could be the difference maker between having the 5 knights + champ you need for Look out Sir! on your VL and not.

Also don't be overly concerned about running your units in narrower formations that don't give rank bonuses. Undead don't care about steadfast, so it's just a matter of whether the SCR and breaking your opponents' steadfast is more important. It isn't always. Sometimes being narrow is nice as you can get stuck in and grind your opponent out while being safe from their shooting and magic.

I run a bus with two blender lords and the wight king, and I run it 3 wide. I don't actually WANT to break my opponent's steadfast, as I want to break them in THEIR turn so that I can reform and charge my next target. Unless counter-charges are an issue, you always prefer to win combats on your opponents' turn than on yours.

Eh, actually, you should be running buses 5 wide. Such units are, as you say, all about breaking units first turn, but that's much easier with a few extra Black Knight attacks and the extra combat res from any ranks you have. It's also useful as you may manage to disrupt the opposing unit if you hit it in the flank (which is not unlikely if you're playing right). Also, if you're charging units that will get significantly more casualties on you due to your expanded frontage, or charging a unit which results in a long grind, then you've charged the wrong unit (or at least charged at the wrong time). In the latter case - a grind - the rank bonuses and the extra attacks you get will most likely be more useful than reducing your opponent's damage output a little.

 The Shadow wrote:
Eh, actually, you should be running buses 5 wide. Such units are, as you say, all about breaking units first turn, but that's much easier with a few extra Black Knight attacks and the extra combat res from any ranks you have. It's also useful as you may manage to disrupt the opposing unit if you hit it in the flank (which is not unlikely if you're playing right). Also, if you're charging units that will get significantly more casualties on you due to your expanded frontage, or charging a unit which results in a long grind, then you've charged the wrong unit (or at least charged at the wrong time). In the latter case - a grind - the rank bonuses and the extra attacks you get will most likely be more useful than reducing your opponent's damage output a little.

Sometimes, but not always. See above.

Running 3-wide also gives you more flexibility in terms of how you contact the enemy unit and how you make way. It also reduces damage by limiting your frontage and - better yet - forcing your opponent to allocate to a) T5, WS7 vampires with ward saves, b) T5 wight kings, or c) champions who can only ever take 1 wound for CR purposes at any single initiative step (like...say...the ASF step or whatever initiative step that fighty enemy character goes at ) and can be raised back up each turn. Also can get in a challenge and deny attacks from any model engaged only with that unit (up to 2 full files if fighting 20mm, and you align yourself correct).

Note that you can also leave a character like a VL in the second rank then challenge. You get your full attacks in the challenge, and don't get stuck in the front rank as the challenger never moves to meet the chalenge acceptor.

edit: what's important here is having the flexibility. There are circumstances where breaking steadfast is going to be more important. There are also circumstances where having a narrower frontage will be better, or having the flexibility to make way where you would like (or to not make way at all).

For instance, I will frequently use the "challenge from the back" trick on my double blender bus. If they accept then cool, my VL gets his full attacks without being exposed. If they decline then I send an important character to the back. Either way my VL is not locked in combat, so that when my bus takes the inevitable countercharge he can make way and blend the new unit at will. Often times I will do this by combat reforming so that the flank about to be counter-charged is comprised of my wight king (with the shroud), a champion (displaced from the front rank), and a rank-and-file model who will be replaced when my VL makes way.

Good luck getting any combat res out of that. Any wounds that are allocated to the characters I can heal away with casting on my turn (immediately following).

As I said...flexibility. Since we're not concerned about steadfast we can fight in any formation or flank we wish. All it costs us is a little bit of CR. If giving up a rear charge is the only way to lure someone into combat with your blenders then so be it. All it costs you is a little bit of combat res.

So then the current list looks like this?

Blender Lord mounted with add-ons (518)

Necromancer level 2 * dispel scroll (125)
White king mounted (great weapon, luck stone, shield) (111)

Core:
40 skeletons + full command and add-ons (255)
Either 30 ghouls + champion OR 20 skeletons (added to the 40 or seperate?) and 4x5 wolves.

Special:
13x black Knights (full command, banner of eternal flame, barding + lances)
Spirit host
Spirit host
4x Vargheists

Total: 1971 approx depending on core choices.

I'd rather run crypt horrors than vargheists as I think the ghoul models look nicer (if you hadn't already guessed lol) but don't mind if they're definitely not worth taking.

Cheers again guys,
Jabba




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also as a fantasy noob all that charging/rank bonuses business is way over my head lol

Crypt horrors work as a big unit. Trouble is that they need the general around to march, and with the BK bus I feel like they'll either get left behind, or you're anchoring the BK bus to them and losing out on the units inherent maneuverability.

Up to you, though. The other alternative is to go with foot vamps. Basically take the same models you currently have and drop them all into the skeleton brick instead. That frees up the points you're currently spending on black knights for a big unit of crypt horrors. Drop the spirit hosts as well and you could swap the vargheists for a unit of 4 morghast archai. That's two tough as nails units you can throw into the enemy, and your two invocations will bring back 3 and 5 wounds on both of them. Very nasty.


As for the skeletons, what 'extras' are you giving them? Unless a VL is going in there, I've found any magic standards to be pretty superfluous on them. I'd rather just 2x40 skellies with FC and no other tricks. (HW/S of course, for the parries...though who knows what 9th will bring for spears). The unit is 230 with just basic command, meaning that with the extra points you're spending you could get a unit of direwolves.

Also, if you want the ghouls then don't let me stop you. You could try going with a level 4 shadow and beefing them up with mindrazor? Lots of things you could do there. They quite like the double mortis engine too, if you feel like going that route.

To be honest my favourite units are the black Knights, graveguard and crypt ghouls/horrors aesthetically but they don't seem to match up very well haha!

Think I'll get the army of Sternieste set and go from there. I'll flog the zombies to help fund some skeletons but yeah as said, would like to stick as close as possible to a workable VC army that relies more on heavy hitters than summoning hundreds of models... Which is proving hard to do lol!

Thanks again,
Jabba

You can still do it. The "netlist" VC army is 3 huge bricks of zombies, a BK bus with a VL, nightshroud WK, and hero vampire with dispel scroll, two terrorgheists, two spirit hosts, and a big feth-off brick of crypt horrors. Like 12 of them.

Army is tough to shift and doens't give up points. Two TG can reliably scream one target off a turn, of just about anything that isn't infantry. It's a nasty list.


That said, I actually like the skeletons better. They're easier to paint, you don't have to worry about how many you need to field, and skeleton champions are worth their weight in gold given how prevalent solo characters are in the meta right now (DE peg characters, WoC disc and demon steed with great weapons, scar vet and old blood cowboys). Skeleton champions are a silver bullet against these, as the mount kicks them to death before the hero gets to strike and you deny all those wounds and beat them on combat res. I can't count the number of WoC characters I've butchered with skeleton champions.


As for crypt horrors...they can go together. You'll just need to figure it out. I feel like the really fast things go best, as it allows you to outflank. That said, big bricks of crypt horrors are also great at dealing with the things the BK bus doesn't like handling (i.e. big bricks of clanrats, demons, etc. that the bus will get stuck on).

So really, it's up to you.