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I played my Biotitan in the Last apoc Game.
Space Marine Player dropped a squad of 3 centurions with Pod next to him killing him Instantly with grav And missile Shooting in the Shooting Phase.
300 points Unit killing a 1000 Point Unit ... No way to avoid!!!!!

We Need a fix for grav And gargantuan creatures

Did you forge the narrative?
Jokes aside, GC's got a SR that helps versus poison.
Giving them something akin to that versus grav should be house-ruleable.

Other player refuses those houserules..

 Thairne wrote:
Did you forge the narrative?
Jokes aside, GC's got a SR that helps versus poison.
Giving them something akin to that versus grav should be house-ruleable.

And why should there be special rules against grav for Gargantuan Creatures? They already get special rules against Poison(one of the easiest ways to ensure Wounds on Monstrous Creatures), Sniper weaponry, and weapons that inflict Instant Death or "remove from play"(seriously: if they suffer from a Remove From Play--they take D3 Wounds instead), so why should they get an immunity to Grav?

Grav isn't targeting weak points or anything like that. It's utilizing the target's own mass against them.

It's not because one given weapon killed your beloved model that we all need to fix it. GMC are tough enough, I think everybody can agree on that (6+ on poison/sniper, high T, good saves and FnP, very often invulnerable saves) and grav is not always the panacea against them.

I play IG mech and LC and Missiles are always tough match. Am I complaining because AT weapons actually kill tanks? Grav is pretty much the only true weakness of GMC so next time, wrap up your monster with a thousand gaunts and perhaps you'll see you can actually avoid such cases more easily.

The biggest quip with Grav is their RoF. A 5-shot weapon, re=rolling wounds, is too much. Maybe if it fired 2 or 3, having the gun version rapid fire, would be much more palatable (of course, making centurions cheaper - 15-20p each model, probably)

 Vector Strike wrote:
The biggest quip with Grav is their RoF. A 5-shot weapon, re=rolling wounds, is too much. Maybe if it fired 2 or 3, having the gun version rapid fire, would be much more palatable (of course, making centurions cheaper - 15-20p each model, probably)

The biggest quip with Grav is also the biggest strike against it, IMO.

Grav weapons are Salvo, meaning that unless the model has a special rule that they don't count as having moved--those units are stuck being immobile.
And remember that "rerolling Wounds" is from the Grav Amps, which outside of Centurions, an upgrade for the Grav Cannons IIRC.

Grav amps are free on devastators too.

And grav is hideously broken against GC. SHV are superior to GC as it is, without having a commonly available uncounterable oneshot.

It's the specific hard counter to your unit. It would be like saying Titans are useless because they drop podded in a bunch of sternguard with combi-meltas next to one and took it out that way. It sucks to lose your big cool unit like that, but it can happen.

 Brother SRM wrote:
It's the specific hard counter to your unit. It would be like saying Titans are useless because they drop podded in a bunch of sternguard with combi-meltas next to one and took it out that way. It sucks to lose your big cool unit like that, but it can happen.

It's not comparable at all. A squad of 5 podded meltasternguard do what, 5 hullpoints of damage? A Warhound can survive that. If it has its voidshields up (it likely will, meltapods are usually T1 alpha strikes) it survives it without an issue, barely suffering any hull point damage at all (because the shields eat a melta hit regardless of the HP damage it did). Hell, a Warhound is even 22.5% cheaper than a Hierophant.

Whereas Grav usually oneshots because the Hierophant sits on its 2+

Why didn't you just take 3 dakka tyrants instead of the sucky bio titans, I didn't see a lot of their rules, but the ones I did had bad stats. Plus don't have invisibility or invs like other factions have.

Well they'll always get the obligatory "I'm IoM so I have to be better" bonus, but doesn't IoM have trouble getting fleshbane? Don't other races have that more readily available and it does pretty much the same thing?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Grav amps are free on devastators too.

And grav is hideously broken against GC. SHV are superior to GC as it is, without having a commonly available uncounterable oneshot.

SHV have Haywire, Melta, and CC, which is FAR more abundant than Grav weaponry...

And you have to separate Titans from SHV such as tanks. Superheavy Walkers are essentially their own beast.

Also, totally worth mentioning?
While Superheavy vehicles are immune to any result but "Explodes!" on the Vehicle Damage table, they still lose Hull Points. GCs don't lose Wounds if they got hit and essentially ignored it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Grav amps are free on devastators too.

And grav is hideously broken against GC. SHV are superior to GC as it is, without having a commonly available uncounterable oneshot.

SHV have Haywire, Melta, and CC, which is FAR more abundant than Grav weaponry...

And you have to separate Titans from SHV such as tanks. Superheavy Walkers are essentially their own beast.

SHV compensates for Haywire and Melta by usually having much more HP than a Gargantuan has wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

While Superheavy vehicles are immune to any result but "Explodes!" on the Vehicle Damage table, they still lose Hull Points. GCs don't lose Wounds if they got hit and essentially ignored it.

They lose extra wounds from ID instead, which is comparable.

Go ahead, ask anyone what they think is scarier, a warhound or a hierophant. I can gaurantee you that most will say the Warhound. It is harder to kill and has much more firepower for a lower cost. Who cares that the Hiero has more attacks, it will never get to use them.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Grav amps are free on devastators too.

And grav is hideously broken against GC. SHV are superior to GC as it is, without having a commonly available uncounterable oneshot.

SHV have Haywire, Melta, and CC, which is FAR more abundant than Grav weaponry...

And you have to separate Titans from SHV such as tanks. Superheavy Walkers are essentially their own beast.

SHV compensates for Haywire and Melta by usually having much more HP than a Gargantuan has wounds.

A Knight, which is a SHV, has 6 Hull Points.

And a Knight doesn't come with a high armor save and a FNP save to potentially ignore the Wound.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Grav amps are free on devastators too.

And grav is hideously broken against GC. SHV are superior to GC as it is, without having a commonly available uncounterable oneshot.

SHV have Haywire, Melta, and CC, which is FAR more abundant than Grav weaponry...

And you have to separate Titans from SHV such as tanks. Superheavy Walkers are essentially their own beast.

SHV compensates for Haywire and Melta by usually having much more HP than a Gargantuan has wounds.

A Knight, which is a SHV, has 6 Hull Points.

And a Knight doesn't come with a high armor save and a FNP save to potentially ignore the Wound.

And the Knight is a third of the Hierophant's price, and gets a directional 4++ to boot.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Grav amps are free on devastators too.

And grav is hideously broken against GC. SHV are superior to GC as it is, without having a commonly available uncounterable oneshot.

SHV have Haywire, Melta, and CC, which is FAR more abundant than Grav weaponry...

And you have to separate Titans from SHV such as tanks. Superheavy Walkers are essentially their own beast.

SHV compensates for Haywire and Melta by usually having much more HP than a Gargantuan has wounds.

A Knight, which is a SHV, has 6 Hull Points.

And a Knight doesn't come with a high armor save and a FNP save to potentially ignore the Wound.

And the Knight is a third of the Hierophant's price, and gets a directional 4++ to boot.

So Hierophants need to declare which facing gets their armor save and FNP save?

That's cool!

When are you ever not going to ignore its 2+ when you fire at a T9 model?

2+ is extremely overrated unless it's on a cheap MC like a riptide.

And the Hiero is not cheap.

 Ashiraya wrote:
When are you ever not going to ignore its 2+ when you fire at a T9 model?

2+ is extremely overrated unless it's on a cheap MC like a riptide.

And the Hiero is not cheap.

It's GRAV WEAPONRY.

It's amazing against models with high armor saves, but trash against things with low armor saves.
So while Grav might slaughter that Hierophant, it's wounding Gaunts on a what now?

Combi-meltas are kinda wasted on gaunts too.
What's the point?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Combi-meltas are kinda wasted on gaunts too.
What's the point?

What's the point of your remark?

Grav is meant to be a counter to high armor save models with Toughness values. It's the creature version of Haywire.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Combi-meltas are kinda wasted on gaunts too.
What's the point?

What's the point of your remark?

Grav is meant to be a counter to high armor save models with Toughness values. It's the creature version of Haywire.

But it is WAY more effective than other 'counter' weapons, and kills expensive models far too easily.

 winterwind85 wrote:
I played my Biotitan in the Last apoc Game.
Space Marine Player dropped a squad of 3 centurions with Pod next to him killing him Instantly with grav And missile Shooting in the Shooting Phase.
300 points Unit killing a 1000 Point Unit ... No way to avoid!!!!!

We Need a fix for grav And gargantuan creatures

If you're playing strict rules as written since you're meta doesn't feel kindly about house rules (if it's the Hierophant you're talking about) take the Incubation Chamber upgrade and have a Venomthrope inside the Hierophant. Gives you Shrouded.

Then stick a single toe inside a piece of Ruins. Bam, 2+ cover! (make sure you negate perfect timing with all your Psychic Dice though )

Other than that, it's not make GC more survivable too Grav, it's reduce the amount of shots/number of platforms you can take it on that don't care for Salvo.

Yeah. SHV don't get a special resistance to melta or haywire just because they are super heavies.

But Garguantan creatures do get special resistance to the special anti-personell weapons of sniper and poison.

So it seems dumb to give them yet another special resistance, seeing as the SHV don't get to straight up ignore the weapons optimized against them like GC do. Why the hell do GC ignore sniper weapons anyway? If you think they are too underpowered, change their points cost or something.

Super heavy vehicles ignore the incremental damage results from penetrating hits though. They don't get stunned/shaken, they don't lose weapons, they don't get immobilized.

Why would would an anti-personnel round have a chance of hurting Godzilla?

It's a hard fix, but the biotitans do need a buff from what I've seen.

Just fix grav and/or the worst offenders that can carry them.

What else is going to kill a Biotitan besides Grav?

I don't see any practical way to deal with T9 2+ armor with FnP other than Grav weaponry.

 Grey Templar wrote:
What else is going to kill a Biotitan besides Grav?

I don't see any practical way to deal with T9 2+ armor with FnP other than Grav weaponry.

D weapons. But those aren't very co-oh... never mind.

 Grey Templar wrote:
What else is going to kill a Biotitan besides Grav?

I don't see any practical way to deal with T9 2+ armor with FnP other than Grav weaponry.

It costs 1000 points.

With 1000 points, I am sure you can figure something out.

Lets see, lascannons? Nope, can't get enough for 1000 points.

Melta? Still too few shots needing 5s to wound, and requires you to get too close.

Plasma? Hell no. 6s to wound is garbage.

All we are left with is Grav.