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Just wanted to ask you guys about the IG and a trend I have been noticing lately since I started playing them. Earlier this week, I went to a different store that I recently found out about and when I went there a lot of the 40k players were surprised that I was fielding Imperial Guard. To a lot of them, they feel that the Imperial Guard are a bad army right now as they need a major update to be competitive in this Edition. This of course lead to a debate and by the end of it, I couldn't do much to convince them despite winning 2 games. And this isn't the first time I have gone to play games and my opponents have made that same comment of me playing IG when they are an army lacking a lot atm.

This is my personal take on the IG. The Imperial Guard can still be a competitive Army in this Edition and compared to others, we still have some bite and we can still hold our own. However, we are currently falling behind compared to most of the top-tier armies at the moment and as it stands, we lack any real strong formations that are both flexible and effective atm, as most other armies have formations that completely outstrip ours. Need a lot of Point changes to actually reflect the cost of various units and tanks as many of them are over costed for what we get, bring back some special rules like Lumbering Behemoth, and could use an update on various formations and lists, especially the Forgeworld Death Korps of Krieg and Elysian lists. Another big change that we need is consistency and a unified set of rules for all IG armies, both FW and Standard. One if the biggest issues I have with the Imperial Guard is that there are numerous Army lists and Formations with different point values and rules and they all need to be updated to where they are all on the same page.

Not saying this to complain. But I can't deny that when it comes to Tournament play and even in fun games, those few like me who play Imperial Guard just can't seem to do well and things usually end bad for us. And the more and more I play, I an kinda understand what my opponents are referencing as while I love the IG and they are a fun army to play, I do feel that they are lacking in some way compared to other 40k armies. Not sure if it has something related to what I said above, if its about a rule issue or the lack of effective formations, but I am starting to see why many people believe the IG are falling behind. Have any other IG players experience this lately? Or if you play another army, do any of these thoughts reflect on what the problem with the IG is atm? Appreciate the feedback because while I do love my IG a lot, I might put them on hold and focus on building a more competitive list. Not because I am frustrated or upset but I play in a very Power-List type of meta for the most part and I would like to hold my own for once in games in a tournament. Kinda sucks when the only award I can get in a Tournament Constantly is the Good Sportsmanship Award lol.

Yes, Imperial Guard are pretty bad right now.

It also doesn't help that most tournaments use restrictions like Detachment Limits that further weaken the weaker factions, and just force the already-strong factions to use slightly different builds to get their zero fun deathstars on the table.

Tournament results show IG showing exceedingly poorly, but not at the absolute bottom, they could potentially be considered the "best of the worst". They are not competitive and can only hold their own against older armies.

The army has several issues.

First, the core rules really are against them. Non skimmer vehicles have major problems and thats the bread and butter of the army. IG have no MC or Deathstar units, and the army as a whole has mobility issues. Likewise' scale issues are a problem, and relatively common units can withstand literally hundreds of models worth of Lasgun fire and still not die. Firepower in other armies has exploded, and there are generalist armies that can handily outshoot the shooting oriented IG. Then if course IG dont have the insane formations and freebies of other armies. Most fundamentally, the army has extremely poor internal balance and is seemingly designes around a 5E paradigm despite having been released weeks before 7th.

I've had IG for a long time, and unfortunately they are not very good in this edition. I've found that the only build that can keep up with my meta is Pask, a ton of melta vets in chimeras, multiple vendettas, and a few wyverns.

Tbh I've been getting pretty tired of Guard lately, which is why I'm expanding my Daemons army. There's a serious lack of internal balance in the codex, and even the good units aren't great.

For an in-depth look at the failings of the IG:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/669516.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/675221.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651867.page

I wouldn't say they are lacking as such it's just the thing the army is good at (a horde shooting list) no one really wants to play due to how long the movement and shooting phase would take

And on top of it, the new Mont'ka formations require:
(there's hyperbole here)

9000 infantry = $25,000
Several Super Heavies = $25,000
All the Sentinels = $25,000
All the Leman Russes = $25,000
All the Valkyries/Vendettas = $25,000

They're pricing me out of my army.

EDIT: And for those who say "First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!" and putting out 150 lasgun shots is powerful: It's not. It's gonna take out like 3 regular marines, maybe 1 terminator, maybe .5 of a necron.

I'd like some sort of "Massed Fire" rule, where 10 lasgun shots can be traded in for a single S7 AP3 shot or something.

Yeah, lasguns are pretty useless, and with units like TWC's or Wraiths that can take upwards of a thousand lasgun shots to bring down (literally), or nearly thirty just to kill a single Necron Warrior, the game has outscaled the relevancy of such weapons.

ziggurattt wrote:EDIT: And for those who say "First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!" and putting out 150 lasgun shots is powerful: It's not. It's gonna take out like 3 regular marines, maybe 1 terminator, maybe .5 of a necron.

Statistically:

150 lasgun shots would take out: 150 X 1/2 X 1/3 X 1/3 (150/12) marines

or

150 X 1/2 X 1/3 X 1/6 (150/36) terminators.

If you only roll 6s and your opponent only rolls 1s, however, that's a different story.

I do completely agree that IG vs. marines isn't a fun game, though.

As a marine player, I end up grossly outnumbered, outgunned and on the receiving end of WAY too many pie plates.

IG are heavily reliant on large blasts. Invisibility basically makes it useless. Command squads in drop pods are nasty though and so are wyverns.

Most of their weakness are covered by an imperial knight. Even then its like...why wouldn't you play tau? They have no weakness.

 Xenomancers wrote:
IG are heavily reliant on large blasts. Invisibility basically makes it useless.

Moot point if your opponent isn't using invisibility.

Traditio wrote:

As a marine player, I end up grossly outnumbered, outgunned and on the receiving end of WAY too many pie plates.

You're playing marines wrong m8
Having been IG against multiple SM forces, and been BT against a few IG forces, I can safely say that it is well within your capacity to table most IG lists by the end of T3.

Traditio wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
IG are heavily reliant on large blasts. Invisibility basically makes it useless.

Moot point if your opponent isn't using invisibility.

But they should be. So the mute point isn't mute, yours is

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
IG are heavily reliant on large blasts. Invisibility basically makes it useless.

Moot point if your opponent isn't using invisibility.

But they should be. So the mute point isn't mute, yours is

1) It's moot.

2) Black Templars, Necrons and Tau.

Blasts just arent what they used to be. Against MC's, thy can only ever do 1 wound, and the MC's often still get their saves, likewise most death star units, while cover and invul saves are increasingly common for other units that mitigate blast weapon power. Blasts against vehicles are also leas useful in the same manner as things like Vanquisher cannons because multishot high ROF weapons and weapons that ignore AV are more effecrive tank killers through HP stripping.

RoF beats blasts any day of the week.

40k needs a reboot...

Not Age of Emprah, but a meta reset where the powercreep is removed - allowing normal troop weapons to actually do something.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:But they should be. So the mute point isn't mute, yours is

1. Necrons and Tau don't even have the option, nor do Black Templar.

2. If I don't want to use psykers, I shouldn't have to.

Period. End of story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Selym wrote:You're playing marines wrong m8
Having been IG against multiple SM forces, and been BT against a few IG forces, I can safely say that it is well within your capacity to table most IG lists by the end of T3.

If you are using thunderfire cannons and drop pods, the IG player might lose.

Tactical marines in rhinos?

Not so much.

Tac marines in rhinos have a hars time because of the vehicle rules not allowing assaults out of stationary transports. It used to be one of the most effecrice anti IG sm builds since it was competing on a pretty godd attrition level with the IG.

That said, SM's as a whole really have no issues dealing with IG as an army with the tools at their disposal, psykers or no.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Tac marines in rhinos have a hars time because of the vehicle rules not allowing assaults out of stationary transports. It used to be one of the most effecrice anti IG sm builds since it was competing on a pretty godd attrition level with the IG.

That said, SM's as a whole really have no issues dealing with IG as an army with the tools at their disposal, psykers or no.

Only if you take into account drop pods and thunderfire cannons. If my list doesn't have those things, I lose against IG.

Traditio wrote:

Selym wrote:You're playing marines wrong m8
Having been IG against multiple SM forces, and been BT against a few IG forces, I can safely say that it is well within your capacity to table most IG lists by the end of T3.

If you are using thunderfire cannons and drop pods, the IG player might lose.

Tactical marines in rhinos?

Not so much.

As BT I've had easy af wins with these sorts of things:

LR Crusader with Chainsword Friends
Drop Pod Dreadnought with heavy flamer (other options irrelevant)
Plasmacannon Devastators (They're just funny. Not competitive, but they are funny.)
Hammernators, any deployment style.

My Ultramarine bro/mortal enemy has used:

Scout MSU with krak grenades and meltabombs to kill tanks
Rhinos (Rhiiinoooes) with Tac marines for bolter spam vs 5+ saves, with some 'nades in case of vehicle spam. Regular flamer use.
Shooty Dreads
Lascannon Predators

The UM guy is still acting like this is 5E, but still tears up IG in every battle he's ever had against them. Spams a lot of methul bawkses, and IG seem to be the only army right now that can't do efficient ranged anti-tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Tac marines in rhinos have a hars time because of the vehicle rules not allowing assaults out of stationary transports. It used to be one of the most effecrice anti IG sm builds since it was competing on a pretty godd attrition level with the IG.

That said, SM's as a whole really have no issues dealing with IG as an army with the tools at their disposal, psykers or no.

Only if you take into account drop pods and thunderfire cannons. If my list doesn't have those things, I lose against IG.

Wat?

What sort of lists do you use / play against?

Literal mech infantry spam will do just fine too. Your shots will probably kill with each hit. Theirs won't.

In fact, for the sake of this, what list is getting you wiped out by IG?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Literal mech infantry spam will do just fine too. Your shots will probably kill with each hit. Theirs won't.

In fact, for the sake of this, what list is getting you wiped out by IG?

Bet it uses IK and Eldar.

Traditio wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Tac marines in rhinos have a hars time because of the vehicle rules not allowing assaults out of stationary transports. It used to be one of the most effecrice anti IG sm builds since it was competing on a pretty godd attrition level with the IG.

That said, SM's as a whole really have no issues dealing with IG as an army with the tools at their disposal, psykers or no.

Only if you take into account drop pods and thunderfire cannons. If my list doesn't have those things, I lose against IG.

psyker support, biker units, centurions, storm ravens, any number of absurd formations/detachment bonuses, etc. IG generally have poor answers to any of these.

TFC's and Drop Pods are just the EZ-Mode I Win buttons against IG, they're not mandatory at all. If you auto-lose to IG without them, I'm not sure what to say.

 Selym wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Literal mech infantry spam will do just fine too. Your shots will probably kill with each hit. Theirs won't.

In fact, for the sake of this, what list is getting you wiped out by IG?

Bet it uses IK and Eldar.

You'd think so, wouldn't you.

Stay on topic please guys. And you all make good points, sadly it's the reason why I am considering shelving my IG until theyou get an update. I run a Mechanized Vet list with anywhere from 4x to 7x Chimeras, and then throw in LR Variants and Flyers to support. Has do e alright been against the top-tier armies it struggles really bad. Have won more then I lost but my opponents haven't always been amazing and I have gotten lucky a lot more then I should of.

Even BA don't auto lose to guard. They are at a slight disadvantage is all. With vanilla marines, you have no excuses. You don't need invis, either. Any old captain with artificer can tank a lot of blasts for you.

IG can make lasguns relevant again with primaris divination psykers. It's a bummer to have to do that, but it's an option.

I was thinking about this idea:
Every lasgun-type weapon would gain a Special Rule.

"Lasgun: When making a shooting attack, this weapon always fires one additional shot. Not counting when model can't shoot at all."

So, model would shoot 2 shots and long range, 3 shots at short range, not counting FRFSRF, then it would fire 3 to 4 shots.

I know, guardsmen will stay squishy, but will gain a bit more firepower they need so desperately.

 Hawky wrote:
I was thinking about this idea:
Every lasgun-type weapon would gain a Special Rule.

"Lasgun: When making a shooting attack, this weapon always fires one additional shot. Not counting when model can't shoot at all."

So, model would shoot 2 shots and long range, 3 shots at short range, not counting FRFSRF, then it would fire 3 to 4 shots.

I know, guardsmen will stay squishy, but will gain a bit more firepower they need so desperately.

A formation like librarian conclave would help a lot more. Let you get off those misfortunes.

Martel732 wrote:
...

Yes, but then it's not vanilla guard codex...

...
Imagine, 200 BS2 S3 AP- shots with Presience and Rending. A bit of a overkill.

 Hawky wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...

Yes, but then it's not vanilla guard codex...

No no no. Give the guard a formation of primaris psykers similar to librarian conclave in their codex. Or, a formation that gives 6-8 free psykers.