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Just... Why? They can put down 100+ infantry and tons of vehicles every game, and massively outnumber their opponents, they have units that can take out their points of stuff in a single phase (Wyvern, LRBT, Basilisk), their HQ's are all force multipliers, they can take lots of psykers, and they have more LoW choices than everyone else. I don't get how you could think that the AM are underpowered.

I woyuld take a look at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1560/651867.page

One gripe is that some people think vehicles are bad, they are weaker than 5th edition for sure where a tank could live forever if the opponent rolled badly.

Already been there. It's nowhere near as bad as they make it out to be.

Everyone wants their army to be Tau level, if they are not they believe it to need improvement.

I was just happy my last DA codex made them not completely crap, though I would love to see termies not suck, I love deathwing but they die way to easy for how many point they cost.

The IG are underpowered because they are point-for-point far more inefficient than most other forces. CSM being the exception, as they are downright unplayable most of the time.

Guard are reliant on expensive tanks and blobs of infantry, which in this edition aren't that competitive. There transports are expensive and slow, which for maelstorm missions is bad.

Noone ever seems to win with guard, at least not at competitive events.

Everyone wants their army to be Tau level, if they are not they believe it to need improvement.

But surely that's correct - Everyone should be at the same level?? The recent 7.5 Codex's are on a different level to earlier ones and that's the issue (along with some total idiots saying L2P etc)

TheAvengingKnee wrote:I woyuld take a look at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1560/651867.page

One gripe is that some people think vehicles are bad, they are weaker than 5th edition for sure where a tank could live forever if the opponent rolled badly.

Says the Dark Angels and Necrons player. If your opponent is rolling that bad that they fail to kill a tank then it is hardly your fault.

Typically-Wardian wrote:Just... Why? They can put down 100+ infantry and tons of vehicles every game, and massively outnumber their opponents, they have units that can take out their points of stuff in a single phase (Wyvern, LRBT, Basilisk), their HQ's are all force multipliers, they can take lots of psykers, and they have more LoW choices than everyone else. I don't get how you could think that the AM are underpowered.

The LRBT will struggle to kill its own points in a single phase, unless your opponent is stupid to leave a big, expensive, 3+ or worse and no invun save unit out in the open and it is bundled up in a tight group and your shot does not scatter and you wound every model and they are all T4 or less and not multi wound....... See where this is going?
The Basilisk is even worse off, having the same issues with none of the Leman Russ's survivability.
The Wyvern is a decent choice..... One of only two that is worth its points in the entire codex.

The HQ's are force multipliers? How?

100+ Infantry whom will vanish in about two/three turns.

Tons of vehicles? Since when was that an issue to just about every other army?

Typically-Wardian wrote:Already been there. It's nowhere near as bad as they make it out to be.

And yet you do not play IG and have never faced them.

I haven't played necron in their current edition, not really fun anymore. Kinda wish I hadn't bought the book and card set.

I was referring to 5th edition where if you were glancing a vehicle all day and it just is less effective but still alive. This was before I played necron though, I really only played them at the tail of 5th and part ways through 6th.

Though thank you for reminding me to drop the necron off my sig since I really never plan to play them again.

People think that it is underpowered because it is.

The only units people use are Leman Russes, Company Command Squads, Veterans, Chimeras and Vendettas. The only strategy people seem to use is sitting in the corner of the map behind a defence line with Punisher Pask + Tank Friend and Chimeras full of Veterans + Command Squad. I am heavily encouraged to use this strategy, and am told this is the "only way to play guard".

The infantry die very quickly, and lack firepower. The units and vehicles I haven't listed are overcosted for what they do. They lack the firepower to fight off any armoured melee units. Necrons, especially wraiths, demolish guardsmen with ease, usually without casualties.

another issue is speed. In an age of multiple objectives that give points every turn, being able to move quickly is important and guard don't have any thing that does that really well.

It would be cool to see guard get a bike unit or equivalent for an option to move faster otherwise they are stuck with the 12" vehicle movement + flatout.

You might be able to something with rough-riders or something. (Those are the guys on horses right?)

Rough riders are awful! They are great at dying very quickly. Maybe if they could outflank and assault on the turn they arrived. But still.

I've mentioned before how it would be great if guard could have a bike unit that is a motorcycle and side car, equipped with a heavy stubber. They would run in squads of 3 and be a new part of an infantry platoon.

This would make them fast and give them obj sec.

Selym wrote:The IG are underpowered because they are point-for-point far more inefficient than most other forces. CSM being the exception, as they are downright unplayable most of the time.

Now you're just talking out your ass.

master of ordinance wrote:
The LRBT will struggle to kill its own points in a single phase, unless your opponent is stupid to leave a big, expensive, 3+ or worse and no invun save unit out in the open and it is bundled up in a tight group and your shot does not scatter and you wound every model and they are all T4 or less and not multi wound....... See where this is going?
The Basilisk is even worse off, having the same issues with none of the Leman Russ's survivability.
The Wyvern is a decent choice..... One of only two that is worth its points in the entire codex.

The HQ's are force multipliers? How?

100+ Infantry whom will vanish in about two/three turns.

For the LRBT just shoot at all the MEQ units that are spammed everywhere. I've never seen one fail to make its point back. Especially when they can mount additional weapons on the cheap, and fire them all on the move. Nobody else has that kind of power. The Basilisk cannot be outranged, can fire indirectly, hit from behind cover, and denies all armour saves. Hide it behind terrain, and it's practically unbeatable.
The HQ's all have orders that can make the 100+ infantry so much more shooty that they really shouldn't even have the orders rule. And nobody -bar nobody- can take out all the stuff that the IG can put on the table.

Colehkxix wrote:People think that it is underpowered because it is.

And yet nobody seems to be able to prove how. I wonder why...

TheAvengingKnee wrote:It would be cool to see guard get a bike unit or equivalent for an option to move faster otherwise they are stuck with the 12" vehicle movement + flatout.

Rough Riders. Y'know, they guys with cheap fast ap3 spam?

They suffer from the age old tau issue that they don't gain ground well. Missions that require a quick hop and skip out to no man's land like the relic or a bunch of maelstrom objectives are near impossible for them. Any squad fool enough to try will get shredded.

Them, the blood Angels, and chaos marines are consistently the bottom performers at big events. Check torrent of fire if you'd like to see that data.

Even the bottom armies have a few aces though. I think guard blobs make a nice little deployment zone filling ally to knights or marines. A baronial court up at their deployment line with a giant guard blob making it so no one can show up in he side or rear arcs early game is pretty effective. Bonus points if the blob is fearless via priest and has extra survivability like with psychic powers.

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
Rough riders are awful! They are great at dying very quickly. Maybe if they could outflank and assault on the turn they arrived. But still.

I've mentioned before how it would be great if guard could have a bike unit that is a motorcycle and side car, equipped with a heavy stubber. They would run in squads of 3 and be a new part of an infantry platoon.

This would make them fast and give them obj sec.

That's what I mean "do something with them" Make them not horrible.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
They suffer from the age old tau issue that they don't gain ground well. Missions that require a quick hop and skip out to no man's land like the relic or a bunch of maelstrom objectives are near impossible for them. Any squad fool enough to try will get shredded.

That doesn't really matter when the IG can take out the enemy army from 72"+ away, no problem.

The trike idea wouldn't be bad, though maybe not objective secured, even as units on their own they would not be terrible, maybe like up to 3 units as one FA choice.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
[insanity]

Are you high?

They have a good amount of fire power with the right build but it's often on fragile platforms and at some point you need to go out and get objectives unless your going to table your opponent which is rare.

I beat a guard player once in Maelstrom missions by barely killing anything but protecting my fast units and grabbing objectives.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They have a good amount of fire power with the right build but it's often on fragile platforms and at some point you need to go out and get objectives unless your going to table your opponent which is rare.

I beat a guard player once in Maelstrom missions by barely killing anything but protecting my fast units and grabbing objectives.

If by "rare" you mean "99.9999% of the time", then sure. The IG are a powerful codex. By the second sentence, I have to assume you're playing Eldar.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Colehkxix wrote:People think that it is underpowered because it is.

And yet nobody seems to be able to prove how. I wonder why...

And how do you 'prove' something like that?

Did you just lose a game to Guard, OP?

Comparisons with everything else. The IG stand up amazingly well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Did you just lose a game to Guard, OP?

I play guard.

So prove to us that they stand up amazingly well to everything else then

Honestly, I'm not seeing it. Now I pay tau, which is a pretty good codex (although I play with a minimum of cheese), but I've never known them to be a "powerful codex".

 ImAGeek wrote:
So prove to us that they stand up amazingly well to everything else then

The fact that they can cover the enemy deployment zone with untouchable firepower at str 8+ and ap3 or better, means that they can take out enormous amounts of stuff with impunity. Add that to their almost limitless hordes of tanks and troops, and there you go.

I play scout heavy spacemarines. So i have a lot of landspeeders. going by the best evidence we have of actual results is looking at top tournaments winners and to my knowledge none of those have been guard.