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So for 180 pts you get 3 models with 5 wounds each.
To break it down a little, this makes every hunter worth 60 points.

Kurnoth hunters have a 4+ save, but they also have a re-roll to saves in the combat phase.
This means that in order to wound a hunter, you have to hit it 4 times. (roll 4 dices, 2 are saved , 2 are failed but with the reroll, 1 will save and the other will go through.)
Kurnoth hunters being a 5 wound model, this brings their effective health to 20 (5x4). It takes 20 successful wounds to slay this 60 point model.
Defensively, this unit is the best in the game right now at 3 points per effective health in the combat phase.

But it does not stop there. Most units that I have math-hammered to be highly points effective in defense,normally lack in the offence department. But this is not the case with Kurnoth hunters. They are literally moving reapeater bolt throwers !

Their ranged attacks rend and deal 1d3 dmg at a considerable distance. A fully manned repeater bolt thrower normally deals 2d3 dmg every turn for 120 points.
You can expect more than this with only 2 hunters (120 pts) ! You can also kit the hunter to be melee powerhouses, but you would be a fool to do so, as they are quite capable of handling themselves in melee with their shooting attacks on top of the sprout attacks and the stomp attacks.
These guys will rip through an amy in no time. Its this amazing offensive capacity mixed with the unbelievable point efficiency of their wounds characteristic that, in my book, makes this unit the best in the game.

They're certainly not bad units. But I don't think they are as overpowered as you say. Your health calculator seems to be basing everything on rend '-'. I would expect to see Morghast Archai munch through these. 180 points is a lot too. That get's you a cannon.

In AoS nearly every army has an option which seems "too good" on paper, in a vacuum, everything can be answered though. If someone leaves my Icon Bearer alive in a unit of TK Chariots they can be just the most obnoxious unit to chew through.

I don't feel like Kurnoth seem like a troublesome item at first glance. If anything i'm thinking the secret, super-competitive power of the Sylvaneth might be a battle-shock focused build. People are sleeping on how potentially gross forcing battleshock tests on units with severely debuffed bravery might end up.

Yeah sounds like you are basing calculations on ideal situations for the hunters. If an enemy has a 4+ rerollable save then my no-rend attackers sure as hell won't be anywhere near them. A 4+ w/reroll means only 1/4 attacks will make it through, but just rend -1 means 4/9 will make it through; almost twice as many. Also, the General's Handbook is far from perfect balance. There are a lot of overpowered and underpowered units.

Love how someone is already calling a Unit Overpowered when no one has been able to field them in a game yet... . As mentioned there are a lot of units that are just as nasty in their own ways, the Ironjawz Gore Gruntas for one especially in their Formation, and also not taking any Close Combat weapons I feel is a big mistake. There is a lot in the game that ignores Rending (entire Seraphon range, Chaos Units ect) so the added hitting power is nice in some situations.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
In AoS nearly every army has an option which seems "too good" on paper, in a vacuum, everything can be answered though. If someone leaves my Icon Bearer alive in a unit of TK Chariots they can be just the most obnoxious unit to chew through.

I don't feel like Kurnoth seem like a troublesome item at first glance. If anything i'm thinking the secret, super-competitive power of the Sylvaneth might be a battle-shock focused build. People are sleeping on how potentially gross forcing battleshock tests on units with severely debuffed bravery might end up.

well said. ^^

The trick with battleshock is that monsters/heroes rarely ever take them, and every army has access to immunity for one unit from the Inspiring Presence command ability. Battleshock-focus is still a powerful option but I wouldn't call it super-competitive on its own since it is best used as a major option of a 'toolbox' so to speak.

 Bottle wrote:
They're certainly not bad units. But I don't think they are as overpowered as you say. Your health calculator seems to be basing everything on rend '-'. I would expect to see Morghast Archai munch through these. 180 points is a lot too. That get's you a cannon.

Morghast Archai, 240 for 2 models, 6 wounds each with a 4+, no rerolls but a 5++ vs mortal wounds only.
Effective health is 12, which gives them a ratio of 10 points per effective hp. Defensively , this unit is ordinary but it does have an amazing attack potential, IF it can get into melee.
Let's see this. They move 9 + and on avg they run 3.5 while Kurnoth hunters can kite them for 5" each turn. Basically the Morghast will gain about 7.5" of movement on them while getting a shower of arrows for about 3 turns. lets see the result of that.

3 kurnoth hunters (180 pts), each turn, shoots a total of 6 arrows, 3 will hit , 2 will wound at -1 rend. The archai gets a 5+ save and suffers 2d3 wounds every 3 wounding attack. In 3 turns of shooting the archai unit suffers 4d3 wounds. On average it suffers 8 wounds, 1 is dead and the other has 4 wounds left. It gets the charge off and attacks first: 3 attacks, 2 hit, 2 wounds out of 3 hits dealing 3 dmg each with a -2 rend. so rounding up, 1 kurnoth dies and another takes a wound.
Kurnoth attacks with 6 quiverling's vicious claws, 3 hit , 1.5 wounds , morghast saves half and takes .75 dmg or lets say 3 wounds every 4 rounds of combat. lets assume it saved it all and is still at 4 wounds left after combat. Archai wins , kurnoth takes no battleshock, does 2 trample attacks, 1 goes in and does mortal wound 2/3 of the time. The Morghast likely took another wound and is down to 3hp. Kurnoth's turn, shooting phase, shoots the morghast right in the face. 4 arrows, 2 hits ,1.3 wounds, going with 1d3 dmg , morghast is now down to 1 hp. Combat phase, lets say moghast attack first again, kills the hunter with 4hp and the last hunter has 3 hp left. Hunter does his 3 attacks , gets unlucky does nothing. roll to see whose turn it is if the silvaneth player wins roll he likely finishes the morghast if not he dies BUT he just held a 240 pts unit with 180 pts, add a 4th kurnoth for an even 240 pts each unit, and you can see how points for points, the morghast still loses to the hunters amazing points efficient ranged attacks.

Morghast is a very good unit, its supposed to counter the kurnoth but in fact the hunters are so efficient that it fails at countering them. I could give you other examples where kurnoth hunters can make up for triple their points in efficiency.

Edit: Ommited to calculate that the unit has a leader that gets +1 to hit

They sounds tough, but not unbeatable. All it takes is a rend of -1 to reduce their combat phase toughness by almost half, and there are alot of ways for units to get on them very quickly, from teleportation to huge movements, to terrain features.

Time will tell but I predict many top lists will spam kurnoth hunters with bows. They are the tau of AoS.
Just remember that a unit tied into melee still gets to shoot in the shooting phase.

 cyberjonesy wrote:
Time will tell but I predict many top lists will spam kurnoth hunters with bows. They are the tau of AoS.
Just remember that a unit tied into melee still gets to shoot in the shooting phase.

Even so there is plenty in the game out there that can and should be able to counter them effectively, they are strong but they are by no means overpowered. Also you are completely jumping the gun by claiming they are "OP" before people have even had the opportunity to use them, give it a couple months after people have been able to use them and play against them.

Also, AOS has mortal wounds, which hard-counter units like this.

 Swampmist wrote:
Also, AOS has mortal wounds, which hard-counter units like this.

Off the top of my head there are several Stormcast units that have the ability to inflict a lot of mortal wounds and that's just one example.

 cyberjonesy wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
They're certainly not bad units. But I don't think they are as overpowered as you say. Your health calculator seems to be basing everything on rend '-'. I would expect to see Morghast Archai munch through these. 180 points is a lot too. That get's you a cannon.

Morghast Archai, 240 for 2 models, 6 wounds each with a 4+, no rerolls but a 5++ vs mortal wounds only.
Effective health is 12, which gives them a ratio of 10 points per effective hp. Defensively , this unit is ordinary but it does have an amazing attack potential, IF it can get into melee.
Let's see this. They move 9 + and on avg they run 3.5 while Kurnoth hunters can kite them for 5" each turn. Basically the Morghast will gain about 7.5" of movement on them while getting a shower of arrows for about 3 turns. lets see the result of that.

3 kurnoth hunters (180 pts), each turn, shoots a total of 6 arrows, 3 will hit , 2 will wound at -1 rend. The archai gets a 5+ save and suffers 2d3 wounds every 3 wounding attack. In 3 turns of shooting the archai unit suffers 4d3 wounds. On average it suffers 8 wounds, 1 is dead and the other has 4 wounds left. It gets the charge off and attacks first: 3 attacks, 2 hit, 2 wounds out of 3 hits dealing 3 dmg each with a -2 rend. so rounding up, 1 kurnoth dies and another takes a wound.
Kurnoth attacks with 6 quiverling's vicious claws, 3 hit , 1.5 wounds , morghast saves half and takes .75 dmg or lets say 3 wounds every 4 rounds of combat. lets assume it saved it all and is still at 4 wounds left after combat. Archai wins , kurnoth takes no battleshock, does 2 trample attacks, 1 goes in and does mortal wound 2/3 of the time. The Morghast likely took another wound and is down to 3hp. Kurnoth's turn, shooting phase, shoots the morghast right in the face. 4 arrows, 2 hits ,1.3 wounds, going with 1d3 dmg , morghast is now down to 1 hp. Combat phase, lets say moghast attack first again, kills the hunter with 4hp and the last hunter has 3 hp left. Hunter does his 3 attacks , gets unlucky does nothing. roll to see whose turn it is if the silvaneth player wins roll he likely finishes the morghast if not he dies BUT he just held a 240 pts unit with 180 pts, add a 4th kurnoth for an even 240 pts each unit, and you can see how points for points, the morghast still loses to the hunters amazing points efficient ranged attacks.

Morghast is a very good unit, its supposed to counter the kurnoth but in fact the hunters are so efficient that it fails at countering them. I could give you other examples where kurnoth hunters can make up for triple their points in efficiency.

Edit: Ommited to calculate that the unit has a leader that gets +1 to hit

This is laughable in its level of bias towards hunters. I'll tell you what really happens: Archai get summoned 9" away, they can attempt to charge but probably fail. Hunters backpedal 5" and shoot, scoring an average of 1.33 wounds. Archai move, charge, and in all likelyhood make it. They swing for 5.55 average wounds, killing a hunter. Hunters swing and stomp back for an average of 1.41 wounds total. Next turn they go first and swing, take another casualty back, and one survives to stomp for an average of 1.08 wounds. Note they still have not skilled even one Archai, who proceed to kill the last one next turn. But if you want to stress yourself out worrying about Kurnoth Hunters taking over the meta then by all means do so, the rest of us won't lose any enjoyment over it.

@cyberjonsey Thanks for the Math hammer, the Kurnoth Hunters are certainly strong, maybe they are overpowered, but I think you're jumping the gun a little.

I don't see the point of comparing two units and their point values in a vacuum. Points aren't there to provide a perfect balance between any 2 units of x points - and so across the board you'll see lots of variation between, say, all the 180 point units.

Points are there to allow players to build total forces of similar power, the more robust the system the wider the variety of builds.

If you take a Sylvaneth Allegiance army you have no access to any Artillery for example - compared to your opponent which might have 4 in a 2000 point game. Maybe the low points of the Kurnoth Hunters allows a Sylvaneth Allegiance to compete with that. If a player bought 12 of these the opponent could get 4 Cannons for the same points - add a cogsmith for 100 points and you could have re-rolls to hit on every cannon within 1" (which could be all 4). I would be much more terrified of 4 cannons than I would of 12 Kurnoth Hunters personally.

I think, wait to see the impact on the UK independent tournament scene and also on the official GW matched play event. If we see Sylvaneth stomping the scene than it would be safe to say the army is under costed.

 Bottle wrote:
@cyberjonsey Thanks for the Math hammer, the Kurnoth Hunters are certainly strong, maybe they are overpowered, but I think you're jumping the gun a little.

I don't see the point of comparing two units and their point values in a vacuum. Points aren't there to provide a perfect balance between any 2 units of x points - and so across the board you'll see lots of variation between, say, all the 180 point units.

Points are there to allow players to build total forces of similar power, the more robust the system the wider the variety of builds.

If you take a Sylvaneth Allegiance army you have no access to any Artillery for example - compared to your opponent which might have 4 in a 2000 point game. Maybe the low points of the Kurnoth Hunters allows a Sylvaneth Allegiance to compete with that. If a player bought 12 of these the opponent could get 4 Cannons for the same points - add a cogsmith for 100 points and you could have re-rolls to hit on every cannon within 1" (which could be all 4). I would be much more terrified of 4 cannons than I would of 12 Kurnoth Hunters personally.

I think, wait to see the impact on the UK independent tournament scene and also on the official GW matched play event. If we see Sylvaneth stomping the scene than it would be safe to say the army is under costed.

And then Bottle's list proceeds to have issues with a TK unit unburying Tomb Scorpions behind those cannons, or a blob of Chameleon Skinks... etc... And then those get countered by.... xyz.... Age of Sigmar is absolutely amazing right now in that there are soooo many different battle-field functions currently represented, and those do very well against some elements while being totally stuck by others. A true take-all-comers list in AoS requires a lot of diversity, skilled play, tactical deployment.... Its a shockingly complete game really.

Yep, agreed. There are lots of ways to counter most things in the game and it makes it very strategic as a result. I am really looking forward to Matched Play in my local GW

Just wanna say that my 2x Dreadquake Mortar would kick their asses...wait what!? you don't wanna play with me no mo!? :(

In all seriousness, they are very good...but there is a lot out there you more than likely don't know about (no disrespects), guaranteed there are even hard counters to them, synergy is a hard foe to overwhelm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bottle's list proceeds to have issues with a TK unit unburying Tomb Scorpions behind those cannons, or a blob of Chameleon Skinks... etc...

If you fail to put insurance in against poppers then i guess your cannons will dies ;D


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW I think AoS Theme song should be "That's Just the Way it is..." Some things will never ...be the same...that's just the way it iiiis oh yea...

 cyberjonesy wrote:
Time will tell but I predict many top lists will spam kurnoth hunters with bows. They are the tau of AoS.
Just remember that a unit tied into melee still gets to shoot in the shooting phase.

Freeguild Handgunners are the Tau of AoS

 gmaleron wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Also, AOS has mortal wounds, which hard-counter units like this.

Off the top of my head there are several Stormcast units that have the ability to inflict a lot of mortal wounds and that's just one example.

I was thinking just this. Screen your Retributors with Protectors (both units with a Starsoul Mace), sound your Knight Heraldor's horn (either for the run & charge coolness, or to punish tree spirits cowering too close to terrain), and tear into them with the oodles of Mortal Wounds you crank out. Plus, Judicators with bows can be your line troops, which allows you to provide covering fire.

Before anyone says I'm building my list purely to go after this unit, the response is no. I just want to have lots of Paladins in play because I like the minis. In fact, the only minis in the army I have not for pure aesthetics are the Judicators, and that's because, IMHO, they're better to fill mandatory slots with than Liberators.

 Etna's Vassal wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Also, AOS has mortal wounds, which hard-counter units like this.

Off the top of my head there are several Stormcast units that have the ability to inflict a lot of mortal wounds and that's just one example.

I was thinking just this. Screen your Retributors with Protectors (both units with a Starsoul Mace), sound your Knight Heraldor's horn (either for the run & charge coolness, or to punish tree spirits cowering too close to terrain), and tear into them with the oodles of Mortal Wounds you crank out. Plus, Judicators with bows can be your line troops, which allows you to provide covering fire.

Before anyone says I'm building my list purely to go after this unit, the response is no. I just want to have lots of Paladins in play because I like the minis. In fact, the only minis in the army I have not for pure aesthetics are the Judicators, and that's because, IMHO, they're better to fill mandatory slots with than Liberators.

Have you considered instead using the Vexilor Banner to teleport the Retributors within 3" of the Kurnoth Hunters instead?

Mmm, have to disagree with much of this. I think if we're disregarding the RNG cannons that are nasty as all hell then Skarbrand is the king of the game.

He's a bloodthirster, so he's monstrous and semi-fast and has 14 health, and is basically death incarnate. Unlike every other monster in the game he gets stronger the more you injure him, unlocking silly amounts of attacks and damage as well as reroll abilities. But he doesn't have to wait to get wounded... if he doesn't get into close combat for a turn he automatically becomes royally pissed off, swinging an 8 dmg attack if it hits in addition to 8 attacks at 3 dmg apiece. All with bloody rerolls to hit, wound, and murder death kill.

Skarbrand is possibly the only guy who can (with luck) walk up to Nagash or Archaon and murder him in a single round. By himself.

AoS is packed with mortal wounds and nimble abilities.

You can teleport a pack of SE paladin right in the face of the Kurnoth, dealing mortal wounds on arrival, then mortal wounds with the star mace, followed by mortal wounds on 6 to hit, and topped with rend and double damage.

Maths don't determine the end of a battle.


*Edit* - Exactly what Bottle said.

OP

I did some mathhammer on the bow units and two units of three will struggle to put 5 wounds on a character with 3+ armour. Even with two shots each you struggle to get through with only 6 shots. They really aren't that good.

Also, the sword and scythe are massively more damaging than the bow version. Almost twice as much in fact. Simply due to better hit chance and a higher number of attacks or more rend for the scythes. But they still get all of the trample and armour abilities...

Also, how does wound allocation work in AoS? Was thinking best way to blob Alarielle with the Kurnoth using her heal ability.

Edit: Table: sorry the forum does not like Excel. Also, assumes a leader with a bonus to hit in a squad of three.

Damage
5+ 4+ 3+ 2+
Sword 9.63 7.70 5.78 3.85
Scythe 8.67 7.22 5.78 4.33
Bow 4.81 3.85 2.89 1.93

Seems saying something isn't good because it can't deal with the character with only a 3+is a bit hasty.

Points aren't even officially released into the wild yet and we have already started calling units undercosted and overpowered. Is this really what everyone clammoring for points was missing?

 Swabby wrote:
Points aren't even officially released into the wild yet and we have already started calling units undercosted and overpowered. Is this really what everyone clammoring for points was missing?

The points are optional so there's literally no downside as a design point.

 Swabby wrote:
Points aren't even officially released into the wild yet and we have already started calling units undercosted and overpowered. Is this really what everyone clammoring for points was missing?

The people clamoring for points are the ones now saying how good AoS is about counters being available to everything and how no one unit is really THAT good.

Just spotted this on twitter: https://twitter.com/Sixdiceskills/status/751730463572627456

Somebody must have been reading this thread or they've seen what I have seen in the math.

And in case you guys don't know who Symes is, he's only the SCGT champ. He probably knows how to build an army... just saying

No matter what, with a range this big there are always going to be units that end up undercosted/overcosted for what they do. I think these guys are undercosted probably, but not to the point where you take them and auto win games. They'll just end up being a staple in Sylvaneth armies and if they start to dominate the meta, then their counters will show up in every other army's list.