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After reading many posts one poster in a different forum said something that got me thinking, should GW direct 40K towards children? With the fluff being so adult oriented, that Space Marines "the good guys" are actually worse than the what a lot of nations did in WW1 and WW2 and past histories combined. Killing and destroying planets because one person thought it was best or because he wanted to. Again the "good guys". Then taking what was sexual in the game out, but yet still keeping the "atrocities" that no child should ever be reading.

So either GW is going to have to make 40K more "lighter, opposite of darker and grim mark" for 8 year old kids to start the hobby. After all imagine all those parents if they knew that their 8 year old is actually putting together something worse than Nazis and playing with them. I am sure a lot of parents would be horrified if they actually knew what Space Marines the "good guys" actually did.

Since the sexualizition was taken out of the game (no matter how light it was and not much in it) and the new vibrant colours that GW seems to be adding in the artwork of 40K, 40K seems to becoming less grim mark and a dark place. So will the fluff be changing as well? Since I don't have the new Space Marine codex I am not sure if the fluff has changed. I have the latest Dark Angel codex and I don't see non of the atrocities the "good guys" do, it looks like the fluff is changing.

So should 40K become an adults only game so the game can become more darker, more grimmer? Maybe even more sexualized just like how Kingdom Death does it? I am not talking about the gigantic boobs they do, but the rest? Would the Chaos people love their Chaos minis look more like Kingdom Death and how other companies do it since they don't rely on 8 year olds buying their products?

I guess what I am asking is something like, do you want your WWE to be like WWF in the "attitude era" instead of "PG are" so do you want your 40K back to more Adult centric than PG centric?

*edit*

I know, just like how WWE is PG rated and that is where the money is, 40K is aimed at kids now because that is where the money is. So I know this will not happen, but what would you like?

From supposed sexualisation in GW to... Nazism?

Let us sort this out here. 40k ultimately has no "good guy" faction; although speckles of good ripple through many of the factions, the factions as a whole have very little moral high ground. All part of the Grimdark signature 40k has.

Is lore changing, and should it be more "kid friendly"? Apart from completely disagreeing that a fantasy universe can affect any child with a brain negatively, hell to the no. Where it stands is where it should always be, alongside the models, which don't have to be sexualised to prove a point.

Considering we just got GSC as a faction again, alongside all their background resurfacing in current publications, I'd also disagree that 40k is becoming less grimdark.

G.A

40k isn't becoming a kiddie game, or at least not in any real sense. Read a codex other than that one, and you'll still see plenty of darkness. (There's a reason some folks just don't care for Dark Angel fluff). For the most part, the darkness is still there. It's not quite as grimdark and hopeless as was the case in past editions, but it's definitely not fluffy-kitties-and-rainbow-ponies, by any stretch: just a bit more nuance added to avoid darkness-induced audience apathy.

What 40k doesn't need, is gratuitous blood and guts and random "hot and sexy" sprinkled in just to "earn that X rating". That's usually a recipe for comically over-the-top crappy writing. Gross or edgy for its own sake is rarely a decent design choice.

What GW is trying to do is maintain 40ks grim darkness, violence, and things like that buried juuuuust under the surface of what it show.

On the outside GW is trying to make 40k looks more fantasy and "Kid friendly" in the looses sense of the term.

An example of what they are doing:

Removed the old scandalous Demonetts, but they are still in lore, in the books just as slutty, just as scandalous, and just a many if not more boobs. But GW keeps that kinda stuff hidden away in the books which, odds are if a kid is getting into the hobby, we all know most kids dont read books for fun, so they wont even see or read that stuff, they will only need the surface.

That said, its also a game based in the UK which right now has some of the most ass backwards laws right now regarding what can and can not be shown. in the UK GOD FORBID! you show an uncovered tit, but a hulking demon ripping a space marine in half with his blood and guts falling to the floor? Totally fine, in fact sunday morning cartoon.

Unlike the US where we just dont give a gak and say sure what ever.

So TL;DR: On the surface the game is becoming more "Kid Friendly" But you need only to scratch the surface to get that sweet sweet grim dark release.

I'd argue the issue is less kid-oriented v. adult-oriented and more about the game getting (and I hesitate to use this phrase) 'dumbed down' in general. In earlier days the fluff was bigger/broader than the game, the writers weren't afraid to present lore as in-universe propaganda or documents from people without the whole picture, and they didn't try to gloss over the grimdarkness to try and designate protagonists. These days the fluff (at least that written in the Codexes, can't speak to Black Library) starts and stops at the game, the writers are going to too much effort to shoehorn game terms/game concepts into the lore. Codex fluff has been reduced to unit/weapon names and a pile of copy-paste buzzwords, and the writers are trying to step out of the universe and present the fluff as objective truth (no matter how contradictory it might be).

This isn't quite the same thing as an adults/children divide because marketing people have frequently forgotten what it's like to be a child and assume children are all idiots; you can hand children an intelligent/well-crafted product, you don't have to strip it down and flatten the characters to do it.

The questions of the morality of the setting (genocide, totalitarianism, theocracy, et cetera) are sort of a tangential problem; they seem to get thrown in as a brute-force tool for easy shock value. Fixing the fluff could involve toning down the grimdarkness, or it could involve trying to handle it more intelligently, but treating the audience like idiots is the actual problem and the bones of the content don't necessarily enforce going one way or the other with it.

Voted other. Keep it roughly the same. No major change is needed imo.

the real world equivalent of 40K is the crusade period only difference is 40K takes place in space and goes from planet to planet, people keep talking over sexualization in this game and those that do I call puritanically inclined, since very little of 40K if any has any sex appeal or sexually content, now blood and gore 40K has it in abundance and that is how it should be, also doubt the game is being geared towards kids because doubt many kids going to spend gobs of money on little plastic men.

I voted other as well. I don't want GW to go all "pc" just to increase sales to a younger audience, nor to they need to go full on x-rated gore fest.
They need to keep in mind that their target audience (young and old) is fairly desensitized to certain kinds of violence by the over saturation of video games in today's culture.
If they stay true to the Grim-dark feeling of the 80's/early 90's 40K, they should do fine.

We're really talking sexualization, since the game has no shortage of violence, affront to religion, or dark themes (betrayal, heresy, revenge, etc).

Sex is really the last taboo in Western society, and if anything is becoming moreso in regards to feminism, sexualization/exploitation of children, etc. I mean, people have a nervous breakdown talking about boob armor on Sisters of Battle. Is it any wonder that rumors are flying about Slaanesh being quietly retired? Does GW really want to walk the minefield of new releases of fluff involving Daemonettes, seduction, and orgies of pleasure?

There are too many people who can't deal with a game universe as fiction, and honestly I can see why GW would just rather not deal with it.

 WhiteBobcat wrote:
We're really talking sexualization, since the game has no shortage of violence, affront to religion, or dark themes (betrayal, heresy, revenge, etc).

Sex is really the last taboo in Western society, and if anything is becoming moreso in regards to feminism, sexualization/exploitation of children, etc. I mean, people have a nervous breakdown talking about boob armor on Sisters of Battle. Is it any wonder that rumors are flying about Slaanesh being quietly retired? Does GW really want to walk the minefield of new releases of fluff involving Daemonettes, seduction, and orgies of pleasure?

There are too many people who can't deal with a game universe as fiction, and honestly I can see why GW would just rather not deal with it.

I have a feeling from this post on, this is gonna quickly descend into nonsense.

Im off to the boob armor thread so.....

actually the only one I see having a major issue with it is the OP Davor not only did he have to start one thread but two threads about it that I know of. seriously Davor if you have this much issue with a pair of small bumps on the SoB's then this game is not for you, in fact most miniature games are not for you, don't go ruining it for others because you cannot extract that stick you have., i never for once considered 40K over sexualized ever, and i'm the kind who finds sexualization in Disney movies (tell me Elsa didn't have a come hither sway in her walk?) so for someone to find sexualization in GW they are either on a witch hunt or have some serious issues going on.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 WhiteBobcat wrote:
We're really talking sexualization, since the game has no shortage of violence, affront to religion, or dark themes (betrayal, heresy, revenge, etc).

Sex is really the last taboo in Western society, and if anything is becoming moreso in regards to feminism, sexualization/exploitation of children, etc. I mean, people have a nervous breakdown talking about boob armor on Sisters of Battle. Is it any wonder that rumors are flying about Slaanesh being quietly retired? Does GW really want to walk the minefield of new releases of fluff involving Daemonettes, seduction, and orgies of pleasure?

There are too many people who can't deal with a game universe as fiction, and honestly I can see why GW would just rather not deal with it.

I have a feeling from this post on, this is gonna quickly descend into nonsense.

I wonder where you might have gotten that impression from. (/sarcasm)

I'd prefer the 40k setting get a little more mature, but actually mature and not the 10 year old sense of what is considered "adult" that permeates most of the universe.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 WhiteBobcat wrote:
We're really talking sexualization, since the game has no shortage of violence, affront to religion, or dark themes (betrayal, heresy, revenge, etc).

Sex is really the last taboo in Western society, and if anything is becoming moreso in regards to feminism, sexualization/exploitation of children, etc. I mean, people have a nervous breakdown talking about boob armor on Sisters of Battle. Is it any wonder that rumors are flying about Slaanesh being quietly retired? Does GW really want to walk the minefield of new releases of fluff involving Daemonettes, seduction, and orgies of pleasure?

There are too many people who can't deal with a game universe as fiction, and honestly I can see why GW would just rather not deal with it.

I have a feeling from this post on, this is gonna quickly descend into nonsense.

I wonder where you might have gotten that impression from. (/sarcasm)

God only knows

Yeah, sorry to go there, but that's really what the discussion is about.

Describe in detail the flesh melting off of people's bones from a virus bomb and nobody blinks an eye. Talk about boobs and everybody loses their minds. It's no different with other media. Network TV regularly shows gruesome torture and murder on primetime TV, but a gay kiss is a national scandal.

The other problem is that when you get into planetary levels of ultra-violence, the narrative starts to become a caricature of itself. "One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic". If you try to make things too GrimDark, nobody can get invested in the characters or narrative.

IMO, Horus Heresy strikes a good balance, and is why it has been successful even though everybody knows the eventual outcome.

I think the Grim Darkness (TM) is about right.

If people want a sexy game they can play a different game. This is a wargame. Shoehorning sex and other stuff into 40k is pointless, its like all the threads that pop up about racism, bigotry and sexism in 40k, its a game about war. I just want to blow people up with big guns manned by people who worship a god that creates plagues that wipe out planets.


It's unreal how upset people get about daemonettes not having 2 boobs.

If you want a sexy board game, play kingdom death, or customize your minis (like all the bikini marine players). Plenty of people who want an exceptionally gory 40k already have very violent custom minis.


If you want tittyranids, by all means, bust out the green stuff. That is what the hobby is all about, but don't go complaining that GW isn't doing it for you.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
If people want a sexy game they can play a different game. This is a wargame. Shoehorning sex and other stuff into 40k is pointless, its like all the threads that pop up about racism, bigotry and sexism in 40k, its a game about war. I just want to blow people up with big guns manned by people who worship a god that creates plagues that wipe out planets.


It's unreal how upset people get about daemonettes not having 2 boobs.

If you want a sexy board game, play kingdom death, or customize your minis (like all the bikini marine players). Plenty of people who want an exceptionally gory 40k already have very violent custom minis.


If you want tittyranids, by all means, bust out the green stuff. That is what the hobby is all about, but don't go complaining that GW isn't doing it for you.

I think the OP's complaint is that is what GW is doing putting boob plate on the SoB's.

I'm surprised how many people want 40k to go darker, grittier, and more okay with sexuality. I am 100% fine with those things, but I can't be selfish. 40k as a hobby needs to grow, and that means it needs to attract a younger audience in a target range. What range is that? I think it's 14-18. Young blood is necessary to make sure that the hobby carries forward, and GW's survival depends on that.

GW has a lot of leeway on its models and artistic depictions, but it has to avoid anything that would put it in the 18+ category. While slipping a boob may seem strange to us as being worse than telling a story about virus-bombing populations, the laws of many countries make it quite clear that, yes, that is the case from their perspective. So, guess what? It means GW needs to walk a fine line there.

It should not become grittier or more sexualized if that pushes the barrier of entry above 18 years old. Yes, the older crowds have more money to spend, but you need to bring people in young so they have the desire to grow their collection when they're older.

 Yarium wrote:
I'm surprised how many people want 40k to go darker, grittier, and more okay with sexuality. I am 100% fine with those things, but I can't be selfish. 40k as a hobby needs to grow, and that means it needs to attract a younger audience in a target range. What range is that? I think it's 14-18. Young blood is necessary to make sure that the hobby carries forward, and GW's survival depends on that.

GW has a lot of leeway on its models and artistic depictions, but it has to avoid anything that would put it in the 18+ category. While slipping a boob may seem strange to us as being worse than telling a story about virus-bombing populations, the laws of many countries make it quite clear that, yes, that is the case from their perspective. So, guess what? It means GW needs to walk a fine line there.

It should not become grittier or more sexualized if that pushes the barrier of entry above 18 years old. Yes, the older crowds have more money to spend, but you need to bring people in young so they have the desire to grow their collection when they're older.

problem is for GW to make the game more bought by 14-18 year olds they have to reduce the cost, anything other then that will not get kids to buy the game, when they can spend maybe $20 max and be playing a card game right away (magic, Yu-Gi-Oh) or even a little more $40 for (STAW, SWAW) that is where the kids will spend the money since it takes about $100 minimum to get playing warhammer in any connotation.

the game is not being geared towards young teen kids but towards college aged kids and such, so a boob here and there wouldn't be an issue and think GW has less then half a dozen model designs that might show boob or such.

40K, as a setting, is already deeply adult, it is just that it somewhat scales with the maturity of the observer.

A teenager will see the Spess Mahrines running around blowing the gak out of all and sundry, with perhaps the odd titter about boobies or a knob joke here or there when Slaanesh rears up in the conversation.

An adult will, if they take the time to consider it, see the more dystopian element to the setting, that mankind are hanging on by their fingertips, that a life of centuries spent almost entirely in combat isn't enough for the Marines to ultimately make any real difference, and that to follow Slaanesh is akin to being perpetually thirsty, no matter how much you drink, and is, in fact, probably a pretty desperate existence.

The setting is perfectly adult enough, if you approach it like an adult.

*checks imperial pocket watch if perfectly timed events* yep, it's right on time.


I'll say this, on the heels of what ever sanity, order, and dignity this thread will have in the next few moments.

My personal belief, so take that at what you want, is nothing in the game, be it sexual, violent, or what ever, should ever be changed for the sake of change, political correctness or appeal. It should be up in o the writers, sculptors, and models as to what things should be or should not be, or look like in a game. If the creators want there to be boob monsters, in the game and have models for it, then I agree, if they want to shy away from that because that's what the story calls for then I support it.

Changing a setting, theme, or tone simply to appeal to a group, while going against what the creators of said IP want, that's when it's wrong. Shoe hornning anything into a universe soly for reasons, again be it PC, profit, or to appeal is wrong and immoral if it goes against what the artests want.

If that offends, or angers people, well then that story, game, or universe is not for you and the creators should never change becuase of it.

Creative freedom is what allowed GW to become what it is, because they said screw you guys space DND sounds bomb as gak! Don't like it don't care *does line of dark eldar drugs, grabs chain sword, hops on the back of a massive squig, take an eldar far seer scantily clad in plate kini while shouting,* IMPERIAL MANIFEST DESTINY MOTHER GAKERS!!! DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA!

It's about as dark now as I'd like.

I'm not sure how the hobby could be more adult-oriented, honestly, apart from adding blackjack and hookers. The amount of money required, for starters, is a pretty high bar of entry for children.

Apart from that, the amount of time it takes to assemble and paint miniatures is pretty prohibitive for most children, seems like to me.

On top of that, understating the rules takes quite a bit of reading comprehension and experience, but be honest.

I mean, it takes a bunch of money, time, reading, and patience, and children don't generally have a much of any of those things.

And about zero of the lore or setting is very kid-friendly, as the OP pointed out.

But I guess I got into the hobby as an adult, so that just may be my experience.

At any rate, I'm happy with the 'adultness' of the hobby in general.

I'd like them to roll it back a little bit. For the most part, the fluff is still very grim, though there's some changes that I think need to be made. (Like, less emphasis on special characters/heroes, reintroduce some of the oldcron fluff). For me, the biggest thing as far as "less grim" comes from the art, which doesn't feel as gritty/grim. That falls more towards the marketing to younger audiences bit though.

Yes. Lore-wise it doesn't need to get darker than the existing dark things, but "grimdark" needs to mean more than "heroic space marines doing heroic things, but MOAR SKULLS EVERYWHERE". But where the game needs to be more adult-oriented is in the rules. GW is catering to kids way too much with the current rules and it's dragging down the game for the rest of us.

Asterios wrote:
problem is for GW to make the game more bought by 14-18 year olds they have to reduce the cost, anything other then that will not get kids to buy the game, when they can spend maybe $20 max and be playing a card game right away (magic, Yu-Gi-Oh) or even a little more $40 for (STAW, SWAW) that is where the kids will spend the money since it takes about $100 minimum to get playing warhammer in any connotation.

the game is not being geared towards young teen kids but towards college aged kids and such, so a boob here and there wouldn't be an issue and think GW has less then half a dozen model designs that might show boob or such.

As someone who has gone through the whole GW lifecycle, and has seen many, many other players do the same, I think the monetary reality is a little different. Younger kids tend to have more time than money, so they are able to really get hooked on the hobby. When they enjoy it, they will play it for a long time, and that has value. They become ambassadors of the brand, and their lifetime investment will be massive. Older players that pick it up tend to have more money than time. They will drop a large amount of money quickly, but then they're also much more likely to drop the hobby in a quicker timeframe as well. So, while you get a sales boost, you miss out on the lifetime returns of the customer.

So, while yeah, the younger crowd might only by a $60 box once every few months (with increasing quantities over time as their purchasing power increases), over the course of a decade, that's a lot more than the adult who drops $1500, buys an army, then drops the hobby.

Comparing to Magic and all the other games, people have an amount of money they'll spend each month on entertainment, and they'll buy in whatever increments that amount allows. If it's $20 per month, then a Magic player will play a draft every month, while a 40k player will save up for a few months to buy the $60 box, and the STAW player will buy a ship during that month. In the end, they all spend the same amount, just over different time frames.

Bring back Slaanesh!
Bring back the Diaz Deamonettes!

What MoO said.
Also, yes, the system needs more maturity. The current 40k ruleset is approaching the realm of being so random that skill is slowly becoming irrelevant. Too much emphasis is placed on rolling dice to determine the modifier to rolling dice to determine how many dice you roll.