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Hi there. I am completely new to Kill Team and I'm mainly a painter, rather than gamer. However I want to make moves into the other major part of the hobby and thought Kill Team might be a good way to get started.

I wondered whether I could get the opinion of my fellow Dakkarites about this 200pt Deathwatch team I've ram-shackled together? You see, the problem is because I don't play I have no idea if I've come up with something reasonable - my rule of cool team was way over 200 points due to a Terminator and Biker being in and my leader being a black shield with thunder hammer and storm shield!

+++ Deathwatch - Kill Team +++

Leader:
····Watch Sergeant with Storm Shield and Power Sword (47pts)

Weapon Specialist:
···Veteran with Chainsword and Stalker Pattern Bolter (27pts)

Combat Specialist:
····Vanguard Veteran with Lightning Claws (35pts)

Indomitable Specialist:
····Veteran with Boltgun and Deathwatch Shotgun (22pts)

Remaining Members:
····Vanguard Veteran with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword (25pts)
····Veteran with Boltgun and Chainsword (22pts)
····Veteran with Boltgun and Chainsword (22pts)

Looks rather interesting, although maybe a Frag Cannon would provide a bit extra firepower.

I wanted to put in a frag cannon, but then it would exceed the 200pt limit

I haven't played much of the new kill team but, i have a few things you might want to think about.

As it stands you have no anti tank weapons at all apart from grenades, so the only way you're gonna be killing vehicles is in close combat or trying with a krak grenade. Also outside of the shotgun you have very little horde control, people will run lists with lots of guys and since you don't have many blast or template weapons you will likely get overrun. Also although i love me a bit of close combat unless you have loads of dudes assaulting they won't do very well so maybe try and reduce it.

A neat little trick you can do with your deathwatch marines though is that you can give them a deathwatch shotgun/stalker bolter as well as a regular bolter/combi-bolter. if you read their rules entry you can replace their boltgun with a ranged or special weapon and then swap out their close combat weapon for something else! This way you can use the right weapon for the job.

Finally apart from the VV all you're marines are walking. Slowly. And a walking marine is a dead marine so maybe squeeze in a rhino? Not that necessary if you just want to stand and shoot from your table edge tho.

So, i would suggest giving all your regular vets a bolter and shotgun, stick in some combi meltas somewhere, a spattering of stalker bolters and maybe a rhino.

@Yentzer - fantastic feedback, thank you. Really good point about the speed of them. I'd wanted a Biker but was seriously exceeding points. I'd tried to deal with close-range fighting through the claws and power sword and was trying vary load-outs for modelling reasons.

Do you think that I should maximise the number of my team members to address the hordes you alluded to? And I suppose my other question therefore is should I just stick to Veterans rather than spending the extra few points on the VVs?

Deathwatch is super fun in Kill Team, but it is very easy to overspend on things. Elite models at low point levels means you need to really consider the opportunity cost of every choice:

- Remember Mission Tactics. They're a big part of the power of the faction, particularly when it comes to stuff like rerolling 1's on Vengeance rounds.

- I can't justify buying power weapons on standard Veterans. A Vet+Power Sword casts 37 points where a similar Vanguard build only costs 30 and a Biker comes in at 35.

- Vets have absolutely no use for a Chainsword since they can take a Shotgun/Bolter and have the same profile in melee anyway. With 7 ammo types, these guys are cheap and effective into pretty much anything.

- Stalker Bolters are quite good with the ability to put specialty ammo into things from across the table. Inflexible, but if you deploy them well (Infiltrate or Scout is great on them) they will often get you the first blood point.

- Heavy Weapon guys can be quite good. The Infernus with Reaping Volley can cover the entire board quite well and help with the numbers issue. The range is such that I often find its basically spending 10 points to be an Assault Weapon, but I'm not unconvinced its not worth it as it makes it much more difficult to hide from. Frag Cannon has plenty of range and explodes whatever it touches, but I'm not sure if it helps enough vs the hordes.

- Vanguards are cheap melee options. Of note, if you only take one, the special guys in Overkill get some random bonus rules for essentially free. In general I find them tough to fit in over bikes though.

- Bikes are really good in general. Super fast; increased toughness, hard to kill with the Jink bonus, solid range with rerolls on top of rerolls. My primary reason to take Vanguards is simply because I've already taken all 5 bikes.

- Rhino is a solid bully. Its cost is on par with a specialist. You really feel the lack of specialty ammo, but other than that, its something to always consider simply because at worst its just another marine in your list; at best you punish your opponent for not having taken an armor answer.

Well guys, I've taken thoughts on board and have tried again:

+++ Deathwatch - Kill Team +++

Leader:
····Watch Sergeant with Boltgun and Deathwatch Shotgun (22pts)

Weapon Specialist (master-craftsman special rule):
···Veteran with Boltgun and Stalker Pattern Bolter (27pts)

Combat Specialist (deathblow special rule):
····Veteran with Boltgun and Deathwatch Shotgun (22pts)

Indomitable Specialist (eternal warrior special rule):
····Veteran with Boltgun and Heavy Bolter (32pts)

Remaining Members:
····Veteran with Boltgun and Deathwatch Shotgun (22pts)
····Veteran with Boltgun and Stalker Pattern Bolter (27pts)

Dedicated Transport:
····Rhino with Storm Bolter and Extra Armour (45pts)

I'd consider changing the extra armour on the rhino to a hunter killer missile for crowd control or upping the heavy Bolter to an infernus heavy Bolter. The extra armour was to try and keep the rhino in play longer to ensure it wasn't lost due to a stray shot. I have decreased my team number to 6 plus the rhino, but I think the comments about the VV are valid. If a solitary bike was thought to be a good idea I could switch a stalker pattern Bolter for a biker.

Thank you for your input so far. This has been really helpful.

I'd definitely shift the Extra Armour elsewhere. It doesn't really do much to keep you alive anyway. It's also worth considering that a 6th Veteran is essentially a 25 point model, so its a good opportunity in general to add a Vanguard or Biker. A Vanguard is the same cost and a Biker is just 5 more. 7 Vets isn't a bad buy though, as you essentially get 2 for 45 and only pay half an extra point each. Tough to fit in with a Rhino though.

Just wanted to chime in here to offer some thoughts that may help. I also play a Deathwatch killteam, so here are some things that work for me:

Biker - power maul
*Indomitable Specialist - Feel no Pain
A T5, 3+/4+ jink with FnP is as close to a 2+ save as you can get. If you get lucky, this guy is a beast of a tank. The power maul is cheap (5 points) for him, so he can get 3 attacks on a vehicle, stripping a couple HPs perhaps.

Take bolters and shotguns on every model that you can; the overwatch of the shotgun is great, and also to shoot twice before charging something, whereas the bolter will be useful all other times. This makes normal 22 point dudes really good and extremely versatile.

The stalker pattern boltgun is excellent IMO. Maybe give him infiltrate (Guerrilla Specialist) or something to get him into position, since it IS a heavy weapon... and snapfiring it sucks.

FWIW the frag cannon is great too, especially if you infiltrate it or something ha, that can be funny.. I'd get one assembled and just swap it in and out from time to time.

Also, consider the special character vanguard vet (Edryc Setorax) if you are looking to go that route. I think he's 35 points and has stealth, shrouded, etc. -- FWIW I also find that giving him move through cover (ala specialist perk) is great too, since you don't have to worry about terrain.

Finally, when it comes to cc, you really want someone that can strike at initiative (so no axes or fists) and take the trait that either improves your to hit or to wound ratio... because you really need to land the hits and force saves. In fact, I've experimented with a blackshield with two cc weapon and chainsword for a boat-load of attacks, and with the "wounds on 2's" combat specialist trait... if you see a power fist, or klaw, etc. you can single them out very easily... good stuff!

Hope that helps!!!

Wow! Guys this is really helpful. Thank you all. Hard to balance everything, because it's clear that playing style will play a huge part in the Kill Team make up.

I like the idea (and see the logic of the Rhino). I also love the idea of the biker riding alongside so have added one in. The power maul seems like a strong tactical idea, but it would push me to 205 points. So unless anyone thinks I should remove the Stalker pattern Bolter or swap the infernus heavy Bolter with a heavy Bolter/missile launcher, this is the current roster:

+++ Deathwatch - Kill Team +++

Leader:
····Watch Sergeant with Boltgun and Deathwatch Shotgun (22pts)

Guerrila Specialist (infiltrate special rule):
···Veteran with Boltgun and Stalker Pattern Bolter (27pts)

Combat Specialist (deathblow special rule):
····Veteran with Boltgun and Deathwatch Shotgun (22pts)

Indomitable Specialist (feel no pain special rule):
····Biker (30pts)

Remaining Members:
····Veteran with Boltgun and Infernus Heavy Bolter (42pts)
····Veteran with Boltgun and Deathwatch Shotgun (22pts)

Dedicated Transport for Veterans:
····Rhino with Storm Bolter (35pts)

I'm getting excited at the thought of building these guys now Any other suggestions gratefully received

Yeah, I'd totally drop the stalker pattern for the maul. 100% worth it. The only way you'll likely "get to" a vehicle or unit you want to kill in cc is on a bike or jump pack, and if you don't use cover you'll get shot to pieces (they have the mobility to go around)... and at 5 points it's a steal.

I would also give the infernus heavy bolter dude a specialist role... outflank may be nice on him to sneak up on stuff.

Lookin good though!

One side note, at 6 models (excluding the transport) you only need to lose 3 to start taking break tests... this could really hurt. Personally I like to get to an odd number of models to avoid this, but I realize it may not be possible with the bike, heavy weapon and rhino. Just some food for thought.

 xTHExCLINCHERx wrote:

One side note, at 6 models (excluding the transport) you only need to lose 3 to start taking break tests... this could really hurt. Personally I like to get to an odd number of models to avoid this, but I realize it may not be possible with the bike, heavy weapon and rhino. Just some food for thought.

Vehicles aren't models?

LunarSol wrote:

 xTHExCLINCHERx wrote:

One side note, at 6 models (excluding the transport) you only need to lose 3 to start taking break tests... this could really hurt. Personally I like to get to an odd number of models to avoid this, but I realize it may not be possible with the bike, heavy weapon and rhino. Just some food for thought.

Vehicles aren't models?

Hmm, I guess it would be. Disregard. Wording below threw me off a bit "...Vehicles and models with the fearless special rule automatically pass break tests..."
Thought it was calling out vehicles to be separate from models... but that doesn't make much sense I guess.

 TP^DC Deputy Manager wrote:
Any other suggestions gratefully received

You've got a solid baseline. The only other suggestion I'd have is to have fun experimenting with other things. The big advantage of Kill Team is that its easy to get in a couple games, even rerack and play the same game over again or try different things.

The nice thing about Deathwatch is that, while everything is expensive, its divided into nice small chunks and realistically everything is divisible by 5 so its pretty easy to swap things around. Build your initial list, then drop the Rhino and swap in a Vanguard or another bike or give a couple guys heavy weapons or something. Eventually you can try dropping the Veterans and using Bikes and Vanguards as your core just because. It's an incredibly modular army, so be sure to have fun with that.

I wasn't sure whether the rhino could be included in the model count until I included it in the list (bit of research before I put it in sold me on it). I had heard the golden rule of having an odd number in squads when possible.

Ultimately I'll end up making the models needed so I can field a number of different options, but for now, it looks like this will be my Kill Team:

+++ Deathwatch - Kill Team +++

Leader:
····Watch Sergeant with Boltgun and Deathwatch Shotgun (22pts)

Guerrila Specialist (infiltrate special rule):
····Veteran with Boltgun and Infernus Heavy Bolter (42pts)

Combat Specialist (deathblow special rule):
····Veteran with Boltgun and Deathwatch Shotgun (22pts)

Indomitable Specialist (feel no pain special rule):
····Biker with Power Mail (35pts)

Remaining Members:
····Veteran with Boltgun and Deathwatch Shotgun (22pts)
····Veteran with Boltgun and Deathwatch Shotgun (22pts)

Dedicated Transport for Veterans:
····Rhino with Storm Bolter (35pts)

Ultimately I'm sure they will be differences of opinion and I will likely try other setups with models made up for various scenarios. This seems like a good starting point though.

Now to think of some background fluff


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunarSol wrote:

 TP^DC Deputy Manager wrote:
Any other suggestions gratefully received

You've got a solid baseline. The only other suggestion I'd have is to have fun experimenting with other things. The big advantage of Kill Team is that its easy to get in a couple games, even rerack and play the same game over again or try different things.

The nice thing about Deathwatch is that, while everything is expensive, its divided into nice small chunks and realistically everything is divisible by 5 so its pretty easy to swap things around. Build your initial list, then drop the Rhino and swap in a Vanguard or another bike or give a couple guys heavy weapons or something. Eventually you can try dropping the Veterans and using Bikes and Vanguards as your core just because. It's an incredibly modular army, so be sure to have fun with that.

Ninja'd.

Thanks LunarSol, it was great talking to you and the others about this.

You might want to double check, but I believe the shotgun is a free exchange for a bolter or bolt pistol, not for the close combat weapon.

@Bretness37 - fair point well made. I was using the Battlescribe app to put the team together and it didn't flag up an error. With the guys above having also suggested it I assumed it was ok.

I've checked page 73 of the codex (wargear list) and it states for Ranged Weapons - "a model may replace his boltgun, bolt pistol or melee weapon with" a bunch of stuff, but a boltgun is included. For special weapons it states - "a model may replace his boltgun with one of the following" and includes the deathwatch shotgun.

I take that to mean that the veteran stands in front of his weapon store, puts his boltgun down and picks up the shotgun, then decides "na! Not leaving that" and then puts his melee weapon down and picks up the boltgun again.

I hope we've got that right.

Yup. That's how it works.

My personal kill team that I have been having fun with is:

Specialists
Veteran with Infernus heavy bolter and Indomitable specialist: Feel no pain.
Veteran with Stalker Pattern Boltgun and weapon specialist: Eagle Eye.
vanguard with Heavy Thunder hammer and Guerilla specialist: Scout.

2 baseline no upgrade Veterans.

1 watch sergeant with storm shield.

Biggest downside I've had with this is it has no way to stop you from rolling an insane number of 1 or 2 on armor saves.

That does look fun. Thunder Hammers are just fun after all

Do you have to take many break tests - I'm noticing you have 6 models?

 TP^DC Deputy Manager wrote:
That does look fun. Thunder Hammers are just fun after all

Do you have to take many break tests - I'm noticing you have 6 models?

In the last 3 games 2 I had to but that is only because I rolled an out of proportion number of 1 and 2 armor saves.

Just updating some things here that I've tried lately, a bit of a departure from my previous recommendations...

Edryc Setorax *combat specialist - warrior adept
Watch Sergeant - bolter, shotgun *leader
Veteran - combi-plasma, shotgun *guerrilla specialist - preferred enemy
Veteran - infernus heavy bolter, bolter *weapon specialist - reaping volley
Veteran - bolter, shotgun
Veteran - bolter, shotgun
Veteran - bolter, shotgun


I find that if you can hide Edryc, he's a beast and applies excellent pressure. Reaping volley on the (assault weapon, remember) heavy bolter is really nasty if you stay back at 36", or up high... you out-range a LOT and it helps with hordes. The combi-plasma is nice for the occasional transport or even just T5 model. Also can swap out for melta, but I find that between the two the plasma has served me better.

Just some thoughts!