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So I've read on the wiki and heard one person say that Khorne embodies honor, since the chaos gods are supposed to have some duality of good and evil aspects, but Khorne does not seem to have any whatsoever.
One of his greatest champions, Kharn, is known for betraying his fellow Khornites because he got frustrated. How can Khorne be honorable if he "cares not from where the blood flows, only that it flows." Honor also entails morality, which is nonexistant for the Khornites (as far as I know).
Now I know that ya'll are gonna say "but Khorne and his followers are honorable because they won't (in a purely literal sense) stab you in the back or use magic." Okay if he's all about martial honor, then why is it fine with him if you go and kill opponents that are not a threat to you, or remotely capable of defeating/righteously ripping your head off, such as children?
I hate Khorne.
And Slaanesh.
Tzeentch is boring.
Nurgle is a nice(ish) guy.
"Show me where it says that in the codex!" said Learchus.
"You know brother that I cannot." said Uriel.
Victim of retconned fluff. Khorne wasn't always about blood and skulls ramped up to eleven like he is now. He used to be a lot more about honourable combat and defeating worthy foes. The Chaos Lord from DOW2 embodied this rather well and only stepped in at the end because he saw his combat with the Capt and co as a worth, glorious battle.
Khorne today as I said is merely a victim of bad retcon.
It's not retconned at all. Khorne totally loves honor. Honor is evil.
The more a society builds itself around using violence at the right time and in the right way, the more it is controlled by violence. Khorne exists because sometimes a society is dominated by violence and is so into violence that violence is just the only thing that matters to people who live in the society.
They were honourable, until all the bad guys got retconned to nothing more than saturday morning cartoon villains. It's also more martial honour than straight honour.
I think as these retcons go along they simplify the morality of each faction, there seems to be less of a grey area around chaos and the imperium and more straight extremes of good and evil; which is sad.
For the others Tzeentch was ambition (I'd say Ahriman still represents this well though) and hope, Slaanesh is different as its an extreme of all emotions positive or bad (seems a little lazy though), and nurgle is acceptance (not gaining too much power from this in 40k), morality, and stoicism. If I remember right though the god don't really gain much power from emotions of those not worshipping them and since they'd likely reflect the emotional energy they are getting, then it'd make sense why despite having these positive inputs they aren't all that strong of a presence in their character. Which I also suppose could mean that, if they were around in a better universe they may actually be benevolent gods instead, but it's the general crappiness/grimdurk that makes them as evil as they appear. This was the more interesting side of the gods in my opinion, the depth to them, which seems to be getting pushed aside over time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 09:23:54
I've a few things to quote about 'honor' especially in regards to the battlefield. Honor is overrated, according to a certain Kiritsugu Emiya.
“Chivalry cannot save the world. It was so in past histories, and it will be so in the future. Those people promoted the idea that there is a difference of good and evil when it comes to the method of battle, and acted on the battlefield as if they have pride. Just because all the heroes of the ages were cloaked with that illusion, how many youths do you think were deceived by the glory of such courage and finally bled to their deaths?”
"This great Heroic Spirit dares to think that the battlefield is better than hell.
What a joke! No matter in what era, the battlefield has always been a veritable hell. In the battlefield, there is no place for hope. What lies there is only cold despair and a sin called victory, built on the pain of the defeated.
All those people who met there have wholeheartedly admitted the evil and foolishness of this act called ‘war’. As long as people don’t repent and don’t regard it as the most evil taboo, then hell would endlessly reappear in the world.”
"However, humans did not realize that truth no matter how high they staked their mountains of corpses. That’s because in no matter what era the courageous and fearless great heroes have always bedazzled the eyes of the multitude with their splendid heroic legends. Because of the wistful actions of those idiots and their refusal to admit that bloodshed is by itself evil, the essence of humans has stayed on the same spot since the Stone Age!"
"The world as it is, the human nature as always, it is impossible to eliminate battles. In the end, killing is necessarily evil. If so, it is best to end them in the maximum efficiency and at the least cost, least time. If you want to slander that as foul and demean that as nasty, then do as you wish. Justice cannot save the world. I have no interest in things like that.”
Honor does seem like an arbitrary term to place on anything in war. Khorne may as well represent it too, all the ugly aspects of it that's been praised despite nothing more than justifying ways to kill.
Yeah honour is founded entirely on morality (which is a fluid societal construct), and a sense of personal self-worth.
For someone to be 'honourable', the only pre-requisites are that their actions follow the morality of their culture and their standing within society is based upon that. For Khornates, spilling blood of any sort could well be honourable, and not spilling blood would be dishonourable, as that is what their culture values.
Saying that, I do feel like Khorne has been dumbed down to be 'bloody blood blood warriors' alongside the 'wolfy McWolf-lord' Space Wolves.
There's so much nuance that has been utterly bypassed or not exploited which could make the various factions so much more interesting.
I suppose if you don't like the direction the official GW fluff is going...make some up yourself! It's explicitly stated in the BRB that your own stories are as much canon as the stuff that's written in official books
Just be careful with changing things too much. Making Khorne honourable again I doubt would get much kickback, but suddenly deciding that Marneus Calgar is the head of a Genestealer Cult might ruffle some feathers
MrVulcanator wrote: So I've read on the wiki and heard one person say that Khorne embodies honor, since the chaos gods are supposed to have some duality of good and evil aspects, but Khorne does not seem to have any whatsoever.
One of his greatest champions, Kharn, is known for betraying his fellow Khornites because he got frustrated. How can Khorne be honorable if he "cares not from where the blood flows, only that it flows." Honor also entails morality, which is nonexistant for the Khornites (as far as I know).
Now I know that ya'll are gonna say "but Khorne and his followers are honorable because they won't (in a purely literal sense) stab you in the back or use magic." Okay if he's all about martial honor, then why is it fine with him if you go and kill opponents that are not a threat to you, or remotely capable of defeating/righteously ripping your head off, such as children?
i think that in terms of "martial honour" he means that khorne daemons don't lie, they tend to challenge mighty foes to single combat (even when the odds are against him), they never use magic and tend to prefer close combat rather than range they speak of "brotherhood" quite alot, Ka bandha calls Sanguinius his blood brother iirc.
I hate Khorne.
And Slaanesh.
Tzeentch is boring.
Nurgle is a nice(ish) guy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MrVulcanator wrote: So I've read on the wiki and heard one person say that Khorne embodies honor, since the chaos gods are supposed to have some duality of good and evil aspects, but Khorne does not seem to have any whatsoever.
One of his greatest champions, Kharn, is known for betraying his fellow Khornites because he got frustrated. How can Khorne be honorable if he "cares not from where the blood flows, only that it flows." Honor also entails morality, which is nonexistant for the Khornites (as far as I know).
Now I know that ya'll are gonna say "but Khorne and his followers are honorable because they won't (in a purely literal sense) stab you in the back or use magic." Okay if he's all about martial honor, then why is it fine with him if you go and kill opponents that are not a threat to you, or remotely capable of defeating/righteously ripping your head off, such as children?
i think that in terms of "martial honour" he means that khorne daemons don't lie, they tend to challenge mighty foes to single combat (even when the odds are against him), they never use magic and tend to prefer close combat rather than range they speak of "brotherhood" quite alot, Ka bandha calls Sanguinius his blood brother iirc.
I hate Khorne.
And Slaanesh.
Tzeentch is boring.
Nurgle is a nice(ish) guy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: well this is wierd
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/09 11:30:41
"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers.
Kharn killed those on Skalathrax who were cowardly and refused to attack the Emperor's children. His honour is about attacking without fear, he 'betrays' those who turn away from the assault.
As for killing innocents, to a lot of followers of chaos, having your blood spilt to empower the Blood God is a great honour and those innocents that died should feel honoured for such a privilige.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Kharn's companions on Skalathrax were cowards who brought shame and dishonour on the name of Khorne. By killing them, Kharn restored his and Khorne's honour.
What is honourable or not is completely dependent on your culture. Every culture has a concept of honour, but there is a lot of variance. But whatever it entails, honour is virtually always related to violence, so it should definitely be an aspect of Khorne
In the case of Khornate honour, it is pretty obvious that not wanting to fight is dishonourable and that killing opponents brings you honour. Every person you slay in Khorne's name brings you honour, altough it goes without saying that slaying a mighty Space Marine lord brings you far, far more honour than slaying an orphanage full of defenseless kids.
Iron_Captain wrote: Kharn's companions on Skalathrax were cowards who brought shame and dishonour on the name of Khorne. By killing them, Kharn restored his and Khorne's honour.
What is honourable or not is completely dependent on your culture. Every culture has a concept of honour, but there is a lot of variance. But whatever it entails, honour is virtually always related to violence, so it should definitely be an aspect of Khorne
In the case of Khornate honour, it is pretty obvious that not wanting to fight is dishonourable and that killing opponents brings you honour. Every person you slay in Khorne's name brings you honour, altough it goes without saying that slaying a mighty Space Marine lord brings you far, far more honour than slaying an orphanage full of defenseless kids.
Perfect
The point where the Khornate honour system diverges from ours is that a mighty warrior slaying an orphanage full of defenceless kids does not be a dishonourable act. The Blood God cares not from where it flows.
In our society, that would not be an honourable thing to do.
I think Khorne's champions seek the honor of providing the most skulls for the skull throne. Definitely a different concept from what most people regard as honor.
If you are strong, he and his champions will face you where you are strong. If you are weak, you are not worthy of respect.
Khorne does not seek asymmetrical warfare. Khorne does not seek to cripple or kill enemy champions from afar.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
mrhappyface wrote: It certainly puts the traitors in a new light that should make you like/understand them more. I love this quote from Angron:
Spoiler:
"What would you know of struggle, Perfect Son? When have you fought against the mutilation of your mind? When have you had to do anything more than tally compliances and polish your armour?" [...] "The people of your world named you Great One. The people of mine called me Slave. Which one of us landed on a paradise of civilization to be raised by a foster father, Roboute? Which one of us was given armies to lead after training in the halls of the Macraggian high-riders? Which one of us inherited a strong, cultured kingdom? And which one of us had to rise up against a kingdom with nothing but a horde of starving slaves? Which one of us was a child enslaved on a world of monsters, with his brain cut up by carving knives? Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom which enslaves you, no matter that their armies outnumber yours by ten-thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour."
, this whole dialogue with Roboute just shows the jaring difference between some of the traitors and the Loyalists. Most of the loyalists were raised as kings on their planets whilst some of the traitors (Angron, Curze, etc.) had to fight against dictatorship and corruption to protect themselves and the people of the planet.
Angron had more honor than the Emperor in the moment the Emperor stole Angron away. In most any instance, running from that fight and the Emperor not backing his son (Angron) showed dishonor. Angron is seen as the chosen son of Khorne. Angron wanting to die with his slave army was the epitome of martial honor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 20:17:55
mrhappyface wrote: It certainly puts the traitors in a new light that should make you like/understand them more. I love this quote from Angron:
Spoiler:
"What would you know of struggle, Perfect Son? When have you fought against the mutilation of your mind? When have you had to do anything more than tally compliances and polish your armour?" [...] "The people of your world named you Great One. The people of mine called me Slave. Which one of us landed on a paradise of civilization to be raised by a foster father, Roboute? Which one of us was given armies to lead after training in the halls of the Macraggian high-riders? Which one of us inherited a strong, cultured kingdom? And which one of us had to rise up against a kingdom with nothing but a horde of starving slaves? Which one of us was a child enslaved on a world of monsters, with his brain cut up by carving knives? Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom which enslaves you, no matter that their armies outnumber yours by ten-thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour."
, this whole dialogue with Roboute just shows the jaring difference between some of the traitors and the Loyalists. Most of the loyalists were raised as kings on their planets whilst some of the traitors (Angron, Curze, etc.) had to fight against dictatorship and corruption to protect themselves and the people of the planet.
Angron had more honor than the Emperor in the moment the Emperor stole Angron away. In most any instance, running from that fight and the Emperor not backing his son (Angron) showed dishonor. Angron is seen as the chosen son of Khorne. Angron wanting to die with his slave army was the epitome of martial honor.
Hey that's me! Hi Mom!
This does bring up the point of the origins of the World Eaters as well; they came from a world of corruption where those in charge were without a seed of 'honour', what the World Eater slaves had was honour that they had to twist and warp in order to survive in such unforgiving situations. This twisted view of honour brought on by years of abuse and slavery was the founding view of the World Eaters and all subsequent warbands which spawned from them.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
THERE IS NO HONOR IN KILLING YOUR FELLOW HUMAN, ONLY BLOODSHED. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
You can go ahead and pretty it all up, but it is futile to do so. No matter what you say, to kill is simply to kill. Amen.
Destroy to create. Wreak havoc upon the infrastructure and bring life anew. Break through all barriers to realize there were no barriers. Realize there were only treacherous games. Learn the entirety of the game. Find the game makers; find the dick traitors/dictators.
Explode unto thy betrayers - ruin all their materials, dethrone and desecrate their persona, crush and manipulate their force, squeeze and torture their ideals to redirect their goals so as to dominate their souls, extract and perfect their fear so as to mitigate their strength and amplify their weakness.
Cut out the sickness, then imprison the wardens. Sing the song blood red and true. Create their destruction.
All for the hunt to dominate.
If you are strong, he and his champions will face you where you are strong. If you are weak, you are not worthy of respect.
Khorne does not seek asymmetrical warfare. Khorne does not seek to cripple or kill enemy champions from afar.
This is probably the most accurate analysis in this thread. It is not dishonorable to slaughter the weak because, in Khorne's view, if they are not capable of defending themselves, they are unworthy of any kind of respect or consideration. Khorne is in many ways Darwinian in his desire for the survival of the fittest, or in this case, the strongest and most able-bodied. Those incapable of defending themselves are not worthy of life and their only purpose is to be blood and skulls for Khorne's throne. It's not pretty, and I don't know if I'd define it as good, but from a purely evolutionary standpoint, survival of the fittest is the natural order of things. Khorne's just speeding up the process in his own, particularly gruesome way.
Keep in mind that honor has nothing to do with morality. It's about respect, esteem, glory, and adherence to a standard of conduct. Khorne happens to have a very distinct criteria for what constitutes those things, and "weak mewling cowards" or "defenseless, innocent civilians" do not fit those criteria. Our current societal point of view would hold that as evil, but many ancient cultures might admire it.
The knight in shining armour who values honor above all else will both fight external threats and oppress his subjects.
That honor forces you to do bad things to be honorable is the nature of khorne. Man in the 41st millienium doesn't dream of saving the universe, there is a pervasive nihilism about that possibility. People fight in 40k because they think it's the right thing to do. But it's not, thus khorne over khaine, the fall of the eldar, and the grim dark future where there is only war.
Darth Bob wrote: . It's not pretty, and I don't know if I'd define it as good, but from a purely evolutionary standpoint, survival of the fittest is the natural order of things. Khorne's just speeding up the process in his own, particularly gruesome way.
Keep in mind that honor has nothing to do with morality. It's about respect, esteem, glory, and adherence to a standard of conduct. Khorne happens to have a very distinct criteria for what constitutes those things, and "weak mewling cowards" or "defenseless, innocent civilians" do not fit those criteria. Our current societal point of view would hold that as evil, but many ancient cultures might admire it.
In terms of morality, what is better?
1) To launch a full scale invasion of planet with swift assault troops who always take the most direct assault path ignoring population centers and civilian casualties. Said assault troops fight in gruesome hand to hand combat with brutal chain axes. They accept no surrender.
2) Exterminatus via bombardment from orbit.
Khorne and his champions are certainly not UN peacekeapers, they inflict a lot of collateral damage, but not total. They also are in the habit of granting quick death. "Take no prisoners" sounds awfully harsh, but with a lot of 40k factions; death is preferable. They aren't like Slannesh followers who torture you inflicting as much pain as possible. Nurgle's brings plague and pestilence to all, none are spared.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
