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Was just randomly thinking about this and got curious about what everyone else thought.

Back when the Great Crusade launched, there wasn't really all that much that could oppose the Imperium. The Orks weren't that big since there weren't really any other large factions for them to rally to war against, the Aeldari were more-less doing their own thing, and the rest of the factions either didn't exist or weren't around. However, we do know that Trayzen almost wiped out an entire Legion on his own by swiping the Emperor's Children geneseed and no one ever caught him. Not exactly a glowing review for the capabilities of the fledgling Imperium.

Since Ullanor was basically Big E and Horus curb stomping the Orks into oblivion, it's safe to say that only the Rangda really opposed the Imperium during the Great Crusade on a large scale; and we know so little about them, it's hard to say what they would be on par with in the current era.

So, if we take Chaos more-less out of the picture (as without the CSM and Deamon Primarchs, they are basically scattered cults like were already around during the Great Crusade) and say, the Necron have all awoken, the Tau have carved out their small empire, the Tyranids are invading and way more Orks are running around fighting everything... could Big E and the 20 Legions still have succeeded in finding the Primarchs before their worlds were conquered by one of the other factions and still gone on to essentially conquer the known galaxy?

Eh, maybe.

It would have been a much more difficult slog and the chances are a chunk of the Primarchs would have been killed before being found.

The problem is, you can't really say for sure how it would go because the reason 40k is so messed up is because the Imperium could never establish a true hold over the galaxy thanks to the Heresy.

If it had never happened then the Tyranids, Necrons, and various other races wouldn't have been as much of a problem.

Of course, the Legions wouldn't have lasted and the Emperor was probably going to destroy most, if not all of them anyway just like the Thunder Warriors so hey ho.

Orks were a major threat, hence Ullanor which broke the back of them. Had the Heresy not occurred, it is conceivable the Imperium would’ve had the resources to keep them to a managed threat.

The Eldar were still reeling from The Fall, as it was the birth of Slaanesh which caused, and then blew out, the Warp Storms, at which point The Emperor was able to launch the Great Crusade.

Into the modern era? It probably would be possible, if The Imperium had similar resources. Namely a ridiculous number of Space Marines and Primarchs to lead them, plus stockpiles of now forbidden or lost weapons.

Orks? Just need to do another Ullanor. Try to get as many of them involved in a single theatre of war, and take out Ghaz. At that point you can break the back of the overall war machine, and devastate the unity that stems from Ghaz, ideally leaving no clear successor, fracturing the threat into hopefully bite sized chunks.

Tyranids you can kind of do the same. A fleet of sufficient size could play merry hell with a Hive Tendril. As long as you can play Keep Away with biomass.

Tau and Eldar? Too few in number to stand much of a chance against the Great Crusade.

Necrons are a bit of a wildcard.

The trick here of course is trying to achieve these things more or less simultaneously. Orks and Tyranids are your biggest concern there. Both could, theoretically, be shattered to the point where even a planetary garrison can keep them in check, because both need momentum and large numbers to be an ongoing threat.

Though I suppose if one of them was picked on first, say Orks? That frees up forces to then go kick snot out the other.

We should also keep in mind that the Legions didn’t have a firm cap on numbers. Provided the geneseed was on hand, and the means to recruit and equip, you could end up with numbers into the millions. It’s mostly the brutality of war which prevented that.

Getting slightly silly? We can look at recruitment between The Great Crusade and present day 40K to see that perhaps modern Chapters are super fussy about recruitment because their numbers have a firm cap. And so they have a vested interest in not squandering geneseed on any but the best of recruits. And with Cawl’s more-or-less-but-certainly-not-totally-successful purification of geneseed, mass recruitment could be done again.

20 Legion sized forces of Marines would certainly be a force to be reckoned with and a major change in the status quo. Provided you can get them where they need to be. And my friends, is possibly the biggest problem. Because their ships aren’t just transports, but mobile recruitment and training centres, armouries and foundries.

Overall? The Imperium, properly lead, certainly has the resources to defeat all its foes - just a matter of target priority.

I think it is fair to say the Tau become thoroughly unremarkable in the sea of capable empires and coalitions that were previously crushed by the Great Crusade.

Their technology is also far better matched by the Imperial capabilities during the Great Crusade. Solar Auxilia basic infantry, for example, are a reasonable match for a Fire Warrior and available in much higher numbers. The best equipped Auxilia outrange Tau and can produce more powerful fire at closer range (although with lower sustainability of such shots).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks were a major threat, hence Ullanor which broke the back of them. Had the Heresy not occurred, it is conceivable the Imperium would’ve had the resources to keep them to a managed threat.

The trick here of course is trying to achieve these things more or less simultaneously. Orks and Tyranids are your biggest concern there. Both could, theoretically, be shattered to the point where even a planetary garrison can keep them in check, because both need momentum and large numbers to be an ongoing threat.

Overall? The Imperium, properly lead, certainly has the resources to defeat all its foes - just a matter of target priority.

I must be misremembering, all I remember of the Orks after Ullanor was the White Scars handily defeating them at Chondax and Guilliman musing on how the muster at Calth was super overkill for the Ork Hordes they were up against.

Yeah, that was my thought to, the Imperium could 1v1 any of them, but they'd more-less be fighting them all at once kinda like they are now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:
I think it is fair to say the Tau become thoroughly unremarkable in the sea of capable empires and coalitions that were previously crushed by the Great Crusade.

Their technology is also far better matched by the Imperial capabilities during the Great Crusade. Solar Auxilia basic infantry, for example, are a reasonable match for a Fire Warrior and available in much higher numbers. The best equipped Auxilia outrange Tau and can produce more powerful fire at closer range (although with lower sustainability of such shots).

I'd disagree with that, while they wouldn't be a Ranga level threat, they would still be far larger than most of the empires conquered in the great crusade which were often just isolated systems. A dedicated Imperial effort would still defeat them, but it would take a long time and a lot of resources.

If the Necrons have 'all awoken', then it's game over.

If you set the start date of the Crusade at current 40 timeline, and need to start gathering the primarchs, you run into a few issues.

One is Guiliman and Ultramar. He would be out on the eastern fringe, getting his planet sorted out, maybe getting in touch with the neighboring planets when the Tyranids darkened the skies. Would the legions have reunited with him before the nids devoured the planet? Even if they had, the planet would not have been fortified as a marine homeworld, with the polar fortresses to break the nids upon.

Would the Imperium have outposts and listening posts to give warning? Inquisitors to take note when they went dark?

I think by the time a budding imperium found out about the nids, they would have a fairly solid foothold, and may have eaten an undiscovered primarch or two. When it came time to bring the fight, a crusade level imperium would do a better job, but it’s going to be real ugly.

The Tau are a good representative of many small xenos empires crushed by the crusade. They would not be a trivial foe, but the whole point of the crusade was to wipe out species just like them. If the Imperium hit them in their prime, while they had their crusade on and rolling, Tau would just exist as battle honors and memories.

How much did the Crusade mess up the Eldar? They were not a major factor at the time due to the birth of She Who Thirsts, and still being thrown a loop from that whole thing. But if they had 10k years to catch their breath, would it make a difference? Maybe more exodite maiden worlds would not be devoured by the Imperium. One of the reasons they still exist in 40k is that the Imperium just has too much on their plate to track them down and wipe them out. And honestly, I don’t see that changing much. Even turbo-charged crusade imperium in a 40k timeline is going to have their hands full with nids and necrons.

Well there is of course the argument that no Crusade = No Pharos = Nothing attracted the Hive Fleets to our Galaxy.

And I do say argument, as it remains possible they’d have found us anyway, just as they processed between the intergalactic void. And if you accept the Pharos was the ringing of the dinner bell.

But they’re here now, so I’m looking at this through the lens of a second Great Crusade mustered in the modern era.

One big boon there could be advanced orders for Forgeworlds and other advanced Industrial/Hive Worlds to start producing the things the Crusade is going to need as it stops by.

Though one factor that is greatly reduced right now, and not as easily solved as a lack of Astartes? The current state of the Titan Legions. Due to the horrific losses during the Heresy, the difficulty of replacing losses and indeed the eternal attrition of 40K? That’s a major resource lacking - at least at first.

The upside of course is that such a Crusade isn’t trying to forge an entire empire from scratch, rather revitalising one greatly faded from its former grandeur. And so far, far fewer planets in need of a conquering and garrison to begin with - at least for the most part. Because that really depends if there are efforts to replace Planetary Governors and indeed Governance, the Imperium being surprisingly hands-off so long as you’re meeting your tithe and don’t get caught doing anything particularly naughty. Mostly on account they’ve far better things to do than go into the exact details of how you met your tithe. Certainly it doesn’t much care for what we in the modern, 21st century might consider egregious abuses of human rights.

I’ve been considering Ghaz’s role in all this as well. I think it’s now beyond question he does in fact have a direct line to Gork and Mork. So whilst he’ll know and care about Orky history about as much as the next Ork (which is to say, unless it’s his own, not at all), Gork and Mork may make him aware of the mistakes made by Urrlak Urg (Ullanor) and The Beast.

And so we may see Ghaz martial the ridiculous forces at his disposal to seek out individual Crusade fleets, rather than go for the traditional Orky Last Stand. I mean, said last stands are terrific fights, and every Ork’s dream. But if it leads to you all getting perished? It’s counterproductive. But, assembling your own fleets and hurling them at the enemy wherever they might be? You may stand a better chance of succeeding in the end through sheer attrition, which is something Ork truly excel in.

Which is of course fine until Ghaz gets killed, then all bets are off.

So even with the Imperiums ridiculous resources properly harnessed and made as efficient as possible? It’s still not a done deal until you’ve hit certain milestones, like getting Ghaz entirely out of the picture. Yes the trillions of Orks are still gonna be out there, but with reduced unity, you’re gonna have a theoretically easier time breaking them down ever further.

The Hive Fleets though? Possibly a variation of the Kryptmann Gambit. Not simply directing them away to an Ork Empire instead (more on that later) but doing what you can to deny them easy biomass whilst grinding down each fleet in turn. Because if you can cut them off from lots of Biomass, their very nature is turned against them. Every weapon, every shot, is an expenditure of biomass. So even hit and run is part of that gradual grinding, literally starving them out.

Though repeating the Kryptman Gambit could still be made to work. Well, not the original like that’s already gone belly up. But the overall plan isn’t awful Its main weakness isn’t necessarily dealing with whatever comes out the victor, but keeping that area as contained as possible whilst it plays out, so nothing else interferes.

If you can manage that, and your interdiction fleet is then backed up by Crusade type fleets? Then you might be laughing, given time.

The genius of the gambit is it buys that most valuable of commodities - time. Time to rearm, repair, re-equip, recruit and reinforce so that whatever horror of your own making is the end product can be dealt with.

Kryptman’s folly there was forgetting the idiot nature of his fellow Inquisitors and Imperial Bureaucracy. But, an Imperium under the control of someone like The Emperor, Guilliman or The Lion would have that final, central authority to keep the cordon in place, and Marshall the force necessary to combat the victor.

Kryptman's folly is that he forgot that the enemy gets a vote, and in the particularly gak show that is Octarius way to many factions and agents get a vote. The Tyranids get a vote, Orks get a vote, Ghazghkull in particular gets a vote and as noted his fellow Inquisitors and Imperial bureaucracy also get a vote. And recently also Chaos and Eldar get a vote.

You cannot realistically plan a "gambit" that in one way or another involves half the factions in the galaxy.

I think the Imperium couldn't do a great crusade in the 41st millennium if it is the Imperium we know from that time.

The Great Crusade is the product of the society of that time, and that society was all about science, reason, optimism and progress. Yeah, as a cloak for a genocidal empire obsessed with genetic purity, but all the same, it was forward looking and interested in innovation.

The 40K Imperium is a backward looking, ossified, illogical and chronically conservative organisation that fights itself in senseless conflicts and wastes resources on an insane scale for crazy reasons. If that's the society we're talking about, it's just not capable of a Great Crusade.

And the Enemy Within is much stronger now than it was during that time - the birth of Slaanesh resulted in a quiet period in the Warp and allowed for the rapid expansion of the Crusade. The insane suffering caused by the Imperium's decaying state has amplified the power of Chaos and soured the Warp on a massive scale across the galaxy, making Chaos a much bigger problem Imperium-wide than it was during the start and middle of the Crusade era.

So no, I don't think the Imperium could do a great crusade even if there were no serious Xenos threats.

 Da Boss wrote:
I think the Imperium couldn't do a great crusade in the 41st millennium if it is the Imperium we know from that time.

The Great Crusade is the product of the society of that time, and that society was all about science, reason, optimism and progress. Yeah, as a cloak for a genocidal empire obsessed with genetic purity, but all the same, it was forward looking and interested in innovation.

The 40K Imperium is a backward looking, ossified, illogical and chronically conservative organisation that fights itself in senseless conflicts and wastes resources on an insane scale for crazy reasons. If that's the society we're talking about, it's just not capable of a Great Crusade.

And the Enemy Within is much stronger now than it was during that time - the birth of Slaanesh resulted in a quiet period in the Warp and allowed for the rapid expansion of the Crusade. The insane suffering caused by the Imperium's decaying state has amplified the power of Chaos and soured the Warp on a massive scale across the galaxy, making Chaos a much bigger problem Imperium-wide than it was during the start and middle of the Crusade era.

So no, I don't think the Imperium could do a great crusade even if there were no serious Xenos threats.

The Indomitus Crusade that Guilliman organizes is the closest thing to a Great Crusade equivalent. However even then, he only seems to just manage the bare minimum of massaging the bureaucracy to get his forces, without directly enacting deeper reforms or bringing sanity to the Administratum. Arguably maybe that is what he should be doing with his talents instead of going out among the stars hitting enemies with a burning sword. Even when he has victories he does not really consolidate or bring reform but again just does the bare minimum to replenish and resupply his forces for the next campaign.